STEM people: do you enjoy what you do?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I think there's a decent number of STEM folks on the forum (Virginia, Rfayette, etc.), so I thought I'd get some real perspectives here.

I got off a /pol/ discussion earlier about this topic and the consensus was that if you have to ask if you should do STEM or only plan on studying it for the cash and prospective job security, you're not cut out to do it at all.  And I felt that would be the case as someone who's never majored in STEM nor ever plan to (Religion/Philosophy + Sociology double-major here) and hates whenever a politician talks about making grants and incentives exclusively available to STEM students if not outright belittle the art and philosophy fields (a la Rubio - which is probably why I despised him more than any other GOPer running last year... but that's another topic).

In other words, for someone like myself this would be a question of personal happiness versus financial prosperity - which isn't a huge dilemma for me personally because I am not materialistic and I don't see having vast amounts of wealth to be a "positive" thing in and of itself.  Nor do I plan on having a large family (or any family at all, rather) to support or live in a big house somewhere in some rich suburb.

Which is why I'm curious: for the people here who work in or study STEM, did you choose to undertake this field out of perceived economic necessity, or because you mostly enjoy the plethora of formulas, theorems, models, and all the technical stuff that goes along with it?

[RFayette]

EFFFORTPOST INBOUNDING

Math was always my favorite subject since literally kindergarten, so I had pretty much always envisioned myself studying math.  I got into computers far later, but I've really enjoyed it thus far.  

One of my favorite experiences in middle school was a competition called "Mathcounts"  (here's an example of a competition video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU9yoxflW68 ).  I remember I found preparing for the contest about as fun as some of my favorite video games, so it's definitely been a passion of mine for a while.  I also love to analyze data (as is common I'm sure on this forum) and often just plot data from Excel on a random topic to dig deeper

Personally, I love taking technical classes and studying the theories, models, etc. therein.  I love to go to the school library and pick up books from the science section with the most equations and technical details therein - I read two really interesting ones recently, one on population ecology and the other on materials engineering.  So money doesn't really have much to do with it, except perhaps my decision to study CS in particular, though I have grown to enjoy it more and more as time has passed.  To be frank, the only non-STEM career fields which interest me much if at all would be as an economist or an accountant, which seem to have the same skillsets to a degree.  

In short, while STEM jobs being remunerative is nice, I don't really see myself pursuing something else, even if it did pay better.  For instance, I have zero interest in sales, even though such jobs often pay quite well.  It just doesn't mesh well with my personality nor my skillset.  

This is just my experience, but in general, I think the majority of STEM students may choose their particular major for the money, I don't think that they chose to get into STEM itself for the money.  For instance, someone who loves chemistry may major in chemical engineering instead for better job prospects and because they don't want to pursue doctoral studies.  But I don't know many chemical engineers who never liked science.

TL;DR:  In my experience, and (in my opinion) most others' experiences, choosing to enter a STEM field is largely connected to personal preference and upbringing rather than solely financial considerations.

[Virginiá]

Which is why I'm curious: for the people here who work in or study STEM, did you choose to undertake this field out of perceived economic necessity, or because you mostly enjoy the plethora of formulas, theorems, models, and all the technical stuff that goes along with it?

I can only speak for one of those subjects, but..

I sort-of went to school for it. It was my minor, but my dad taught my C (he had an obsession with making sure I would always have something to fall back on in life, so I never had to rely on anyone) when I was growing up, so it was really just to beef up my credentials as I already knew most of what they were teaching me. I enjoy it as a hobby when I have time, and I do freelance web development right now for money on the side, but the job I got (entry level programmer) when I graduated was awful. I was the only woman on the team - scratch that, the only woman period, save for secretaries, HR and other support departments. The schedules were tight and it was a lonely job. I mean you can go work for Google or something and probably get a cool environment, but those kinds of companies are not in the majority. Aside from that, the reason I quit was because working with all those men really sucked. Maybe it was that particular company.. I don't know, but it's too long to get in to here. Suffice to say, it's hardly surprising there aren't nearly as many women in that profession. The money was good but it wasn't worth it to me (at the time, anyway)

However understand my biggest issue is only applicable to me in this context... I don't know what profession you are thinking of here. If these pol people were talking about programming (of any kind), then I don't know if I agree. Plenty of people don't start out with an interest in it but can learn it just fine and become good workers, but you might not enjoy it overall long-term as a career. The money can be great, but it's not a particularly satisfying job unless you find programming and buildings things in itself satisfying. Otherwise, we're talking about a stressful job behind a computer for 8+ hours a day. You have to like it at least a little bit or have the type of personality that can tolerate this long-term with no problems.

I wouldn't do a STEM job just for the money - especially if the profession you choose doesn't come easy for you. It's better to have a job that keeps you motivated and happy or else you risk getting locked into a career that degrades your overall quality of life, money or no money. That's not the guaranteed result, but burnout is a common issue in my field.

Anywho, sorry if my perspective on STEM careers here is extremely narrow, but it's the only experience I can share on this.

[Coolface Sock #42069]

Yes, I'm an actuary, and I've never been happier. The job is so laid back that even though it's kind of boring, it's enjoyable, and I've made a lot of friends. I chose the field because I knew I would like it and would make good money. Both were necessary. At the time, I was a chemical engineering major who already had a bachelor's degree in chemistry, hated engineering, was flunking out of my current degree program, and needed a way out, and actuarial exams became that way out.

But the "STEM" acronym is misleading because not all STEM degrees or jobs are created equal. Steer clear of the "S" if you want to make a lot of money. Same with pure mathematics. The acronym I like to use is "TEAM" for Technology, Engineering, and Applied Mathematics.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

post

Yeah, this was a common observance in the thread - it being an overwhelmingly male profession (not to mention having a disproportionate number of Asian-Americans working in it, as is commonly known).  They were mostly talking about CS jobs.

Some were also complaining that the CS and engineering job markets were oversaturated and that made it harder for them to get a job after college; others said that all they needed was a degree and a portfolio and they already had a job waiting for them straight after graduation.  (I'm going to stop myself there and not use /pol/ as a valid representation of how things actually are...)

That said, it encourages me to hear that you and RFayette took up STEM because you wanted to and not because someone told you that it's the only way to get ahead in life.  I'm of the belief that if someone absolutely hates the job they have, they're likely to fail miserably at it and if not, then all the money in the world won't matter if you wake up every morning wishing you could end your life because of it.*

Which is partly why I feel obligated to defend the arts and social sciences viciously whenever a STEM worker takes a jab at it.

*This has been the experience for one of my cousins, who is a lawyer.

[Virginiá]

Some were also complaining that the CS and engineering job markets were oversaturated and that made it harder for them to get a job after college; others said that all they needed was a degree and a portfolio and they already had a job waiting for them straight after graduation.

Yes, that is basically how it was for me. I got a job right out of college. It was a lot easier when I showed them some of my hobby work because it shows them what you can do. Also, there can be saturation in some places but not others. You'd have better luck if you are prepared & able to move to take said job. Again, I also did that.

That said, it encourages me to hear that you and RFayette took up STEM because you wanted to and not because someone told you that it's the only way to get ahead in life.  I'm of the belief that if someone absolutely hates the job they have, they're likely to fail miserably at it and if not, then all the money in the world won't matter if you wake up every morning wishing you could end your life because of it.*

That was mainly what I wanted to get across in my post. It's better to have a job you enjoy and don't dread going to every morning and maybe have less money overall, than to go to a job you hate and have plenty of money. I'm not sure what your goals are, how you feel about money, etc, but when you're hating life and getting stressed out all the time, well, money doesn't cure that.

On the other hand, don't take this as an endorsement to do anything, either. You should find some middle ground and if the things you like most make for poor job prospects, then do something you enjoy less but can make a career of. In the end, you should still shoot for a comfortable life if you can. A job where you can save for your future but not develop high BP and lose your hair over.


If I may ask - were you considering a job in any of these fields? If so, leaning towards..?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Some were also complaining that the CS and engineering job markets were oversaturated and that made it harder for them to get a job after college; others said that all they needed was a degree and a portfolio and they already had a job waiting for them straight after graduation.

Yes, that is basically how it was for me. I got a job right out of college. It was a lot easier when I showed them some of my hobby work because it shows them what you can do. Also, there can be saturation in some places but not others. You'd have better luck if you are prepared & able to move to take said job. Again, I also did that.

That said, it encourages me to hear that you and RFayette took up STEM because you wanted to and not because someone told you that it's the only way to get ahead in life.  I'm of the belief that if someone absolutely hates the job they have, they're likely to fail miserably at it and if not, then all the money in the world won't matter if you wake up every morning wishing you could end your life because of it.*

That was mainly what I wanted to get across in my post. It's better to have a job you enjoy and don't dread going to every morning and maybe have less money overall, than to go to a job you hate and have plenty of money. I'm not sure what your goals are, how you feel about money, etc, but when you're hating life and getting stressed out all the time, well, money doesn't cure that.

On the other hand, don't take this as an endorsement to do anything, either. You should find some middle ground and if the things you like most make for poor job prospects, then do something you enjoy less but can make a career of. In the end, you should still shoot for a comfortable life if you can. A job where you can save for your future but not develop high BP and lose your hair over.


If I may ask - were you considering a job in any of these fields? If so, leaning towards..?

Believe it or not, I was preparing myself to become a priest (Episcopal) or minister.  Then I realized I'm too pessimistic and ill-tempered and crude to take on any of that.

When I get back to college (which is hopefully next semester), I'm still going to work for a degree in "Theology and Philosophy" (that's the official title, as separate from Outdoor Ministries or Christian Education).  After my current schooling and after I graduate from seminary with either a Master's or Doctorate, I honestly have no idea.  (This is what keeps me up at night.)  I have autism, so I'm really introverted, and I'm not sure of a job in the field where I can work peaceably and independently.  (Maybe a researcher for something somewhere... I don't know.)

EDIT: Sorry, wasn't sure if you were referring to what I'm studying now or if I were considering a STEM job.  I don't want a STEM job.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Not a STEM person. I come from a dynasty of engineers, so I'm definitely the black sheep here.

[Clark Kent]

Hi, mechanical engineering major here.

I took it because I genuinely like science, and because I figured that it would make it (slightly) easier to reach my true goal, to become an astronaut.

[DC Al Fine]

You should find some middle ground and if the things you like most make for poor job prospects, then do something you enjoy less but can make a career of. In the end, you should still shoot for a comfortable life if you can. A job where you can save for your future but not develop high BP and lose your hair over.

Sound advice.

Not sure if accounting counts as STEM, but that's how I feel about my field. I don't love what I do, but it pays well, I don't hate the idea of spending my working years doing it, and that's good enough for me.

There's a misguided view out there that you have to 'find your passion'. That's not really feasible for most people and it sets people up for lots of student debt as they bounce from program to program. Virginia's advice is a much better guide to longer term happiness IMO.

[muon2]

You should find some middle ground and if the things you like most make for poor job prospects, then do something you enjoy less but can make a career of. In the end, you should still shoot for a comfortable life if you can. A job where you can save for your future but not develop high BP and lose your hair over.

Sound advice.

Not sure if accounting counts as STEM, but that's how I feel about my field. I don't love what I do, but it pays well, I don't hate the idea of spending my working years doing it, and that's good enough for me.

There's a misguided view out there that you have to 'find your passion'. That's not really feasible for most people and it sets people up for lots of student debt as they bounce from program to program. Virginia's advice is a much better guide to longer term happiness IMO.

I agree with the sentiment that there can be a balance between interest and career for most people in STEM. The pure math and science positions are few, coveted, and don't generally pay great, considering the length of education required for a PhD. Most students will do better in STEM following engineering, health professions or applied math (including CS). One can even use a humanities background to get into STEM as a technical writer.

I'm one of the outliers that went the route of pure math and science. I was a natural with math and loved science as a kid. I was willing to work long hours at my degrees and as a post doc. I was good enough to become a professor, so I could continue with my passion as a career.

I often reminded my students that just the statistics of academia made that path difficult. If a professor directly supervises 10 PhDs over a 30 year career, then only 1 of those 10 is needed to replace the professor at retirement. Even if the field doubles in size over the course of the career then 4 out of 5 of the professor's student should expect to not get an academic job. As I said these are not good odds, and students should be prepared to us their skills in other ways.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I think my field (data project manager) qualifies as STEM, and I greatly enjoy what I do. Data analysis is a big part of my work and it is endlessly interesting being able to work on cutting data in different ways. I've been learning to use Crystal Reports, which is getting a lot into programming logic.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

You should find some middle ground and if the things you like most make for poor job prospects, then do something you enjoy less but can make a career of. In the end, you should still shoot for a comfortable life if you can. A job where you can save for your future but not develop high BP and lose your hair over.

Sound advice.

Not sure if accounting counts as STEM, but that's how I feel about my field. I don't love what I do, but it pays well, I don't hate the idea of spending my working years doing it, and that's good enough for me.

There's a misguided view out there that you have to 'find your passion'. That's not really feasible for most people and it sets people up for lots of student debt as they bounce from program to program. Virginia's advice is a much better guide to longer term happiness IMO.

I don't really think that's entirely misguided, for the most part.  People living in developed countries today arguably have the best opportunities to make a living off of what they enjoy (or at least, can tolerate doing) than at any time in the past thanks to the fact that more people are going to college and have the choice not to enter an undesired occupation set primarily by a person's background or family legacy or what-have-you.  (What's upsetting to me, again, is the continued devaluation of art and especially philosophy for how many years, but I think only the culture and society can be blamed for that.)

Because of academia, people who have a lot of education but fewer job opportunities might have a better safety net in teaching positions - which isn't always the case, but does, I think, provide some leeway for people who can't find work elsewhere.  Not to mention the plethora of government jobs available that even someone with a """low-tier""" degree and some ambition can find work.

I think the biggest problem now is the student loan debt crisis and that obviously directs people to higher-paying jobs.  We would see a lot more variety in the majors and occupations people take if the price of a Bachelor's degree wasn't so obscenely high.

Stressing here, by the way, that I realize it's not a walk in the park for everyone (otherwise I wouldn't have started this thread or worry about my own future).  But suggesting that everyone follows the old mundane cookie-cutter model is no better than encouraging people to work for pennies.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I appreciate muon's comment about academia.  Even if a teaching position isn't available, though, it does seem that one can get by as an author or lecturer.  Public speaking is a skill possessed by few, though.

(Weird thing is that I'm actually a pretty good public speaker even though I'm terrible in casual social situations.)

[Boston Bread]

I enjoyed math in high school, read science magazines/channels and use computers a lot, so STEM seems like a natural fit to me. STEM is quite broad and some fields have significantly better job prospects than others. I ended up as a computer science/math double major mostly for job prospects in computer science. Otherwise I would have just done a math major. Not that being a math major is bad for employment, especially if you still have tech skills, but it would have been more uncertain.

I have had a couple internships working in data entry/analysis and programming. The pay is decent and the work environment is casual, which I like. So, I don't plan to or see a need to change course.

[Virginiá]

Believe it or not, I was preparing myself to become a priest (Episcopal) or minister.  Then I realized I'm too pessimistic and ill-tempered and crude to take on any of that.

Ohhh, ok. I was under the assumption you were looking into this (or being pressured!). More power to ya then

I don't really think that's entirely misguided, for the most part.  People living in developed countries today arguably have the best opportunities to make a living off of what they enjoy (or at least, can tolerate doing) than at any time in the past thanks to the fact that more people are going to college and have the choice not to enter an undesired occupation set primarily by a person's background or family legacy or what-have-you.

If you can make it work, then I would say go for it. I tend to err on the side of financial stability and so I'm more prone to seeking out stability through compromise, but that's not to imply that folks can't always do what they love and live a decent life. It's just riskier, especially if you go to college and study for a field where jobs are few and far between and/or low-paid. I do know a couple people who at least appear to (so far) have fallen into a rut because of this. On the other hand, I've also seen it work out splendidly, so take what you will from that.

(Weird thing is that I'm actually a pretty good public speaker even though I'm terrible in casual social situations.)

Perhaps because it's less personal? Generally in that setting you would deliver prepared remarks but interpersonal socialization is far more dynamic. We're hardwired for it, and I think it illicits a different response in one's mind.

[Хahar 🤔]

Oh, I suppose my experiences are relevant to this.

Obviously I'm doing what I'm doing for the money, because I looked at this graduate program's placement data and salary data and figured I wanted in on that. That doesn't mean I'm not doing it because it's interesting; the answer is both.

Obviously the subject I always liked best was history, and I did major in history in college, but if you want to do something with that after you finish being a student then you have to either be an academic or a schoolteacher or work at a museum, and I know enough people in all of those fields to know that I didn't want to pursue any of them. Obviously there are other things you can do with a history degree, but those are just applications of the skills you learn doing history, and so I figured that I could combine that with technical skills.

I also was a math major in college, but that happened mostly by accident. The last time I felt myself to be someone who was "good at math" was probably when I was in third grade; after that, it seemed like there were always many people in my classes who knew math much better than I did. I liked my statistics class well enough in high school, so I decided to pick that up as a minor when I got to college, since my parents wanted me to at least have something in that area, and after my sophomore year I realized that my credit situation was such that I could change that into a math major and graduate in four years if I wanted while still leaving the possibility to disengage and finish in three years with a statistics minor, so I took that plunge.

I didn't have a good time in calculus in college, just as I hadn't really had a good time in any math class in years and years, but after that when I got to classes that were harder I realized I knew enough that it didn't really seem harder. I know I'm not the only person who has had this experience. I never found math interesting at all until I first took a real analysis course, which came after calculus and after the level at which the vast majority of people stop taking math. I guess it was a combination of the professor being very good and the material no longer just being things a computer could do much better and more easily, but that was the point at which I figured math could be a thing to do.

Even now I sometimes pull up JSTOR during class and read history articles instead of the material being covered in class, but I definitely like the things I'm doing, as evinced by my talking about math every single night in #atlasforum.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I appreciate muon's comment about academia.  Even if a teaching position isn't available, though, it does seem that one can get by as an author or lecturer.  Public speaking is a skill possessed by few, though.

(Weird thing is that I'm actually a pretty good public speaker even though I'm terrible in casual social situations.)

     Making a good living as an author is about as much of a crapshoot as making a good living as a Professor. As for lecturing, you need to be a big deal to begin with to get more than a lousy adjunct gig.

     The public speaking point is also an important one, and in itself disqualifies many of the people who go into academia due to self-selection. I'm much the same way as you are; I am fairly awkward socially (though I've improved through the years), but feel quite comfortable addressing a room.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Not always. The only way I've made it enjoyable was to synthesize my computer science work with my political science work (which is why I now focus on cybersecurity and IR research), but doing so has been relatively fun.

From a student standpoint it really depends on the subject material for me. For example, discrete mathematics was far less enjoyable for me than linear algebra, data structures were by far more enjoyable than circuits or machine structures, etc. I've also enjoyed teaching computer science but it depends on whether or not you actually feel you can spend enough time with students to help them understand the material to the point where you actually believe you're doing a decent job, which is hard when universities are paying us to work less hours but doing the job well requires more hours than you're actually going to be paid for.

To some extent though, I'm a bit of an outlier. I haven't had science or math as much strength since middle school and from high school onward deferred toward the humanities and social sciences as I found those fields far more enjoyable, so not having that natural affinity might have something to do with it.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

This reminds me: I've got some Intro to Digital Forensics homework to work on! :0 Obviously, I'm not STEM, but thanks to the shadow of abject fear that follows me everywhere combined with close contact with a friend of mine who majors in cybersecurity, I'm interested in integrating my interests with greater knowledge of things like... ugh... computers. That my primary IR interest--Russia, to put it in a word--is integrally related to the US' (ugh) "cybersecurity" situation kind of helps. In light of this, I took Computer Crime Investigation I last winter and am taking my first actual computers class, Intro to Digital Forensics, right now. Hoping to take Spatial Analysis & Mapping (which instructs you in not only the "analysis" part, but also in GIS systems) in the winter as a grad class.

(For the record, I hate attaching "cyber" to anything, as it was used in children's TV shows and thus doesn't sound like an actual word meant for an office or academia but, as such, it sadly is... )

As for those that I know, a lot of pre-dent students I know seem... "into" it, which I frankly don't understand. It's good that someone enjoys making a bunch of money, though. Computers majors are either foreigners, those weird white kids that just love being weird and using computers, and those ancient guys coming back to get a professional degree.

[dead0man]

short answer:yes
long answer:but, not really.  My job is not fulfilling, management is atrocious, it's a dead end job, but the money and free time I get keeps me here.  I do enjoy fixing electronic things (or just things in general) and I'm good (not great) at it, but I really don't even get to do that much anymore.  I may quit and get a paper route or something once the youngest is out of the house (and that's the first time I've expressed that thought outside of my own head).

[ilikeverin]

I'm a PhD student in cognitive science, and I love what I do.  But I'm definitely not going into academia for the pay or the career prospects.  If I cared about that, but still wanted to do something language-related, I'd probably be a speech pathologist or a computational linguist working for Google or some other tech firm.  As others have pointed out, "STEM" isn't automatically the path to financial prosperity.  Biology majors actually have some of the lowest median earnings after graduating from college!  You have to pick the right subfields to be prosperous (usually in the "TE" of "STEM").

[politicallefty]

I'm not a STEM person mostly because I never felt it was something I would truly enjoy. In high school and college, I always aced those classes (well, as far college classes went, I aced virtually almost everything). In high school, science is where I really wracked up GPA points with my AP classes. The conventional wisdom has always been that cramming for tests doesn't work. Well, my personal experience says otherwise.

As good as I was in STEM classes, it was never anything I enjoyed to the point where I could see myself in that position for years or decades. I never really cared for my math classes, but I loved my AP Chemistry and AP Environmental Science classes in high school.