Do you want to have kids?
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  Do you want to have kids?
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shua
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« Reply #150 on: September 21, 2016, 09:10:42 AM »

"generates acknowlegement in society"?  I suppose that is one way of describing having a little person who looks to you for love and guidance and calls you "Dad."
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #151 on: September 21, 2016, 11:21:10 AM »

No.

Kids are very expensive. I'd prefer to spend one million dollars on early retirement or a year-long world tour etc. Maybe it's the inner "dismal scientist" lurking inside of me but these considerations matter a great deal to me and I don't feel ashamed about them in the slightest. We live very limited lives and I'd like to spend my life doing anything but changing diapers, giving kids stern lectures to not throw poop on the walls etc.

Another thing that I've considered is that it's weird of me to have a desire to have children when, um, I would not be the one who's pregnant or the one who's expected to take care of the kid etc. If one is a man, one must remember that the desire to have kids is hardly noble. It's a desire to have something that generates acknowledgement in society without all that many risks/consequences.

Some people also find fulfillment in the act of raising a child in and of itself - fulfillment greater than you'd get from a world tour or an expensive car. If that's not for your that's perfectly fine, but it would be nice to at least acknowledge it.

But srlsly guise, can't we got back to discussing Kirk vs. Picard? Sad
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dead0man
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« Reply #152 on: September 21, 2016, 11:26:50 AM »

I'd rather have Picard as a dad.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #153 on: September 21, 2016, 11:34:06 AM »


Now that you mention it, Picard had issues with children too. But he never blamed children themselves for them and, at least where I'm at in the show, it seems he's working to resolve them.

But yeah, Picard is someone who takes all his responsibilities and duties, of any kind, very seriously - which is more than can be said about Kirk... Roll Eyes
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Nathan
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« Reply #154 on: September 21, 2016, 11:41:09 AM »

I've seen this 'it's ~problematic~ for a man to want children' opinion before and it strikes me as facially absurd every time, even though on a hyper-theoretical level it makes some sense.

But yeah, Picard is someone who takes all his responsibilities and duties, of any kind, very seriously - which is more than can be said about Kirk... Roll Eyes

Remember that Kirk, when he was young, was a swot who had to learn to take life easy, while Picard, when he was young, was a hothead who had to learn to take life seriously. Not saying this abrogates your point, but it's useful to keep in mind.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #155 on: September 21, 2016, 12:01:59 PM »

I've seen this 'it's ~problematic~ for a man to want children' opinion before and it strikes me as facially absurd every time, even though on a hyper-theoretical level it makes some sense.

It's not that it's wrong in the abstract, it's just irrelevant because the decision of having children in a couple obviously takes two. A man shouldn't force or pressure a woman into having children (nor should a woman to a man, although in both cases this strikes me as legitimate grounds for ending a relationship), but if a woman does want children, then it's obviously ridiculous for a man to say no based on some abstract feminist stance.


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I actually didn't know about Kirk. That's quite interesting. Picard's experience is certainly more common.
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angus
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« Reply #156 on: September 21, 2016, 12:07:29 PM »


But he didn't like children, and had a plastic heart with a faulty valve because of barfight with some naussicaans who cheated in a game of domjot.

On the other hand, Kirk would probably not be an ideal role model either.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #157 on: September 21, 2016, 03:00:01 PM »

You know, it is possible to be a dad that, call me crazy, is equal (or greater) than mom when it comes to taking care of the kids.  Sure, a lot of dad's don't, but a lot of dads do too.

I don't know why you'd think you wouldn't be expected to take care of any kids you might have.  Did something change since I was a young dad?  It was certainly expected that I would help with the kids, and I did.  I've changed thousands of diapers, walked kids to school hundreds of times, driven them thousands of times, never said I was "babysitting" when mom was away.

Millennials get stranger everyday.  It's like we're going backwards sometimes.

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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/women-in-the-u-s-still-do-way-more-housework-than-men
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Nathan
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« Reply #158 on: September 21, 2016, 03:07:38 PM »
« Edited: September 21, 2016, 03:26:34 PM by The Donald »

This very likely falls under the umbrella of 'easier said than done', but wouldn't one think a simple solution to that, as an individual man in a specific couple trying to decide whether or not to have children, would be to resolve to do more housework and child care and monitor oneself to make sure one does?

Also it's, you know, unbelievably creepy that you think that men who want kids want them only or primarily in order 'to have something that generates acknowledgement in society', but, you know, whatever. (For the record, even if this is true, it's better solved by cultivating more constructive attitudes towards children and fatherhood, not avoiding fatherhood on principle because the desire to be a father is somehow inherently bad.)
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #159 on: September 22, 2016, 12:23:10 AM »
« Edited: September 22, 2016, 12:34:45 AM by TheDeadFlagBlues »

This very likely falls under the umbrella of 'easier said than done', but wouldn't one think a simple solution to that, as an individual man in a specific couple trying to decide whether or not to have children, would be to resolve to do more housework and child care and monitor oneself to make sure one does?

Also it's, you know, unbelievably creepy that you think that men who want kids want them only or primarily in order 'to have something that generates acknowledgement in society', but, you know, whatever. (For the record, even if this is true, it's better solved by cultivating more constructive attitudes towards children and fatherhood, not avoiding fatherhood on principle because the desire to be a father is somehow inherently bad.)

Sure and, yet, that rarely happens and there's something our social structures that is so durable that even the most well-intentioned man inevitably does less housework than his partner. Why this is so is not difficult to understand: men are socialized to not care about messes to the same degree that women are and this creates a "natural" division of labor. None of this is fair, of course, but it's easily explained and it's hard to change the dynamics of this.

There's nothing unbelievably creepy about what I've stated. I'm noting a social fact: that there are social rewards associated with having children. They give you an inner sense of purpose but also a kind of external acknowledgement that your life matters and has value. These are important psychological needs. I'm not devaluing these needs by acknowledging their existence nor am I devaluing children by doing so. I brought these facts up to discuss why it might be, uh, problematic to want to have many kids if one is a man because it's not a lot of work for us in comparison to what having kids entails for women. It's worth reflecting upon and being conscious of, I think. It doesn't naturally lead one to certain positions but it could if one is honest.

Seeing as I'm 22, is it really weird that I'm terrified at the idea of being a parent? This is a pretty normal stance among young people and for good reason: for most us, the prospect of being a parent anytime soon is irresponsible. Because I'm from Idaho, I know some people who are parents and they're all parents by accident. These situations are, almost as a rule, very dire and tend to have bad outcomes, particularly in a country where wages are low and families are rarely stable.
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« Reply #160 on: September 22, 2016, 12:31:01 AM »

I read 'If one is a man, one must remember that the desire to have kids is hardly noble. It's a desire to have something that generates acknowledgement in society without all that many risks/consequences.' as implying that it was always and only that, which I still maintain would be an extremely creepy thing to say. My mistake.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #161 on: September 22, 2016, 12:36:36 AM »

I read 'If one is a man, one must remember that the desire to have kids is hardly noble. It's a desire to have something that generates acknowledgement in society without all that many risks/consequences.' as implying that it was always and only that, which I still maintain would be an extremely creepy thing to say. My mistake.

I mean, I understand why you might be defensive about this. You live in a very different part of the country and it might be universal for people to bash the idea of having children. I'm defensive because it feels like half of my graduating class has kids at this point and I'm terrified that this is happening.

It's hard to "do you" without being insecure if everyone else is doing the opposite.
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dead0man
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« Reply #162 on: September 22, 2016, 07:38:34 AM »

That pretty much proves my point doesn't it?  Husbands only do about a half an hour less house work than wives....I'd bet they are away from the house more than the wife too.  Probably a lot more than a half an hour/day on average.  So as a percentage of their time at home, they are likely doing more work in the home, on average, than wives.  (unless all of that is factored in, which I would doubt, but I'd be willing to be surprised...and they don't seem to even be counting "husband" chores at all...and aHA!, from the actual study
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and that's just counting women and men that go to work, and since more men work than women....yeah.  Women still clearly do more work around the house than men, but when you factor work NOT around the house in, the numbers swing the other way.  Men are doing more around the house than ever, and more women are working outside the house than ever.....these are both good things (or at least, not necessarily bad things).

But at 22, nobody should be encouraging a person to have kids, man or woman....or settle down to a contract laden monogamous relationship.  Enjoy yourself, you (likely) have plenty of time to have kids and get married.  Between my 21 and 22 birthdays I got married, joined the Air Force and had a kid.  I should have only done the middle of those things (if any of them).  If it works for you (and it obviously does for many many people), that's great.  For most of us, it doesn't.


(on the other hand, having kids young means they'll be out of the house while you still have a little tread on the tires.....this is a good thing too that I'm already starting to enjoy.  My youngest is almost 15 and I'm only 43, he'll be out of the house before I turn 50.  People that waited until their 30s to have kids don't get that luxury.  My first wife is also 43 just had a kid with husband number 3 (one son with each husband..weird), I can't freaking imagine being the parent responsible for a newborn at this point in my life.  She'll be 61 when he graduates HighSchool....that's nuts!)
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« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2016, 10:17:28 AM »
« Edited: September 22, 2016, 10:29:45 AM by The Donald »

But at 22, nobody should be encouraging a person to have kids, man or woman....or settle down to a contract laden monogamous relationship.  Enjoy yourself, you (likely) have plenty of time to have kids and get married.  Between my 21 and 22 birthdays I got married, joined the Air Force and had a kid.  I should have only done the middle of those things (if any of them).  If it works for you (and it obviously does for many many people), that's great.  For most of us, it doesn't.

Personally I think the idea of having this enormous lacuna in one's twenties when one doesn't have meaningful family responsibilities is perverse, but I'll admit that it's how most people are socialized, it's what most people are prepared for, and I'm shaping up to not really be able to avoid it myself despite really wanting to. This seems like one of those things where how things might ideally be or how one might want the world to be and the way most individual people are actually raised and what they're actually prepared for, at least these days, come into direct and almost irresolvable conflict. People have always wanted to at least have socioeconomic stability in sight before they get married and have kids, and that happens disgustingly late now, at a time in life where female fertility (for women who do want kids) is already starting to decline and, as you said, if one does succeed in having kids one will start to have bad joints and musculoskeletal diseases by the time they're grown.

I'll defer to DFB's analysis of/suspicions about the way the men in his community seem to think. That's definitely concerning.
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shua
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« Reply #164 on: September 23, 2016, 02:17:59 PM »
« Edited: September 23, 2016, 02:34:36 PM by shua »

This very likely falls under the umbrella of 'easier said than done', but wouldn't one think a simple solution to that, as an individual man in a specific couple trying to decide whether or not to have children, would be to resolve to do more housework and child care and monitor oneself to make sure one does?

Also it's, you know, unbelievably creepy that you think that men who want kids want them only or primarily in order 'to have something that generates acknowledgement in society', but, you know, whatever. (For the record, even if this is true, it's better solved by cultivating more constructive attitudes towards children and fatherhood, not avoiding fatherhood on principle because the desire to be a father is somehow inherently bad.)

Sure and, yet, that rarely happens and there's something our social structures that is so durable that even the most well-intentioned man inevitably does less housework than his partner. Why this is so is not difficult to understand: men are socialized to not care about messes to the same degree that women are and this creates a "natural" division of labor. None of this is fair, of course, but it's easily explained and it's hard to change the dynamics of this.

There's nothing unbelievably creepy about what I've stated. I'm noting a social fact: that there are social rewards associated with having children. They give you an inner sense of purpose but also a kind of external acknowledgement that your life matters and has value. These are important psychological needs. I'm not devaluing these needs by acknowledging their existence nor am I devaluing children by doing so. I brought these facts up to discuss why it might be, uh, problematic to want to have many kids if one is a man because it's not a lot of work for us in comparison to what having kids entails for women. It's worth reflecting upon and being conscious of, I think. It doesn't naturally lead one to certain positions but it could if one is honest.

Seeing as I'm 22, is it really weird that I'm terrified at the idea of being a parent? This is a pretty normal stance among young people and for good reason: for most us, the prospect of being a parent anytime soon is irresponsible. Because I'm from Idaho, I know some people who are parents and they're all parents by accident. These situations are, almost as a rule, very dire and tend to have bad outcomes, particularly in a country where wages are low and families are rarely stable.

Being terrified of being a parent is very understandable and is normal, even for people who become parents and end up finding a great deal of joy in it. But seeing kids as a relative waste of time and money taking away from one's own enjoyment of life is kinda sad.
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« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2016, 07:35:52 PM »

Sure I do eventually. I can't stand kids now but I will grow to love them in the future.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #166 on: September 25, 2016, 07:33:27 AM »

But at 22, nobody should be encouraging a person to have kids, man or woman....or settle down to a contract laden monogamous relationship.  Enjoy yourself, you (likely) have plenty of time to have kids and get married.  Between my 21 and 22 birthdays I got married, joined the Air Force and had a kid.  I should have only done the middle of those things (if any of them).  If it works for you (and it obviously does for many many people), that's great.  For most of us, it doesn't.

Personally I think the idea of having this enormous lacuna in one's twenties when one doesn't have meaningful family responsibilities is perverse, but I'll admit that it's how most people are socialized, it's what most people are prepared for, and I'm shaping up to not really be able to avoid it myself despite really wanting to. This seems like one of those things where how things might ideally be or how one might want the world to be and the way most individual people are actually raised and what they're actually prepared for, at least these days, come into direct and almost irresolvable conflict. People have always wanted to at least have socioeconomic stability in sight before they get married and have kids, and that happens disgustingly late now, at a time in life where female fertility (for women who do want kids) is already starting to decline and, as you said, if one does succeed in having kids one will start to have bad joints and musculoskeletal diseases by the time they're grown.

The problem with the stability argument, is that, while it is technically true, one can always have more money/stability, so the definition of stability gets expanded as education/income rises. I get the impression that college educated millennials romanticize our grandparents era, and have been socialized to require a very, very high degree of stability before 'settling down'.

For example, the typical woman with a bachelor's degree is more likely to be childless compared to a woman with a high school diploma, and if she does have children, will have them ~4-5 years later than her less educated counterpart. Obviously there are some cases of couples with humanities degrees and massive student debt, but income statistics indicate that there are a lot of college educated couples requiring a level of stability that their high school-only counterparts will never have.

While I'd definitely agree that economic environment is less hospitable to having children than it used to be, there's also a cultural component that could/should be changed.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #167 on: September 25, 2016, 03:17:12 PM »

You know, it is possible to be a dad that, call me crazy, is equal (or greater) than mom when it comes to taking care of the kids.  Sure, a lot of dad's don't, but a lot of dads do too.

I don't know why you'd think you wouldn't be expected to take care of any kids you might have.  Did something change since I was a young dad?  It was certainly expected that I would help with the kids, and I did.  I've changed thousands of diapers, walked kids to school hundreds of times, driven them thousands of times, never said I was "babysitting" when mom was away.

Millennials get stranger everyday.  It's like we're going backwards sometimes.

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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/women-in-the-u-s-still-do-way-more-housework-than-men

So what?  You wouldn't have to follow the path of "everyone else."

My mom probably spent more time "taking care of us" growing up, because she had more flexible work hours; I'd hardly say that made my dad's role in raising my sister and me any less significant.
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« Reply #168 on: October 18, 2016, 10:36:21 PM »

But at 22, nobody should be encouraging a person to have kids, man or woman....or settle down to a contract laden monogamous relationship.  Enjoy yourself, you (likely) have plenty of time to have kids and get married.  Between my 21 and 22 birthdays I got married, joined the Air Force and had a kid.  I should have only done the middle of those things (if any of them).  If it works for you (and it obviously does for many many people), that's great.  For most of us, it doesn't.

Personally I think the idea of having this enormous lacuna in one's twenties when one doesn't have meaningful family responsibilities is perverse, but I'll admit that it's how most people are socialized, it's what most people are prepared for, and I'm shaping up to not really be able to avoid it myself despite really wanting to. This seems like one of those things where how things might ideally be or how one might want the world to be and the way most individual people are actually raised and what they're actually prepared for, at least these days, come into direct and almost irresolvable conflict. People have always wanted to at least have socioeconomic stability in sight before they get married and have kids, and that happens disgustingly late now, at a time in life where female fertility (for women who do want kids) is already starting to decline and, as you said, if one does succeed in having kids one will start to have bad joints and musculoskeletal diseases by the time they're grown.

I'll defer to DFB's analysis of/suspicions about the way the men in his community seem to think. That's definitely concerning.

Really? Not having children or romantic partners in ones twenties is perverse to you?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #169 on: October 18, 2016, 10:48:13 PM »

Hey, omegascarlet, why don't you actually try to provide a serious, substantive answer to my posts on the incest thread before randomly picking new fights (which you know you're going to lose anyway)?
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« Reply #170 on: October 18, 2016, 11:14:55 PM »

But at 22, nobody should be encouraging a person to have kids, man or woman....or settle down to a contract laden monogamous relationship.  Enjoy yourself, you (likely) have plenty of time to have kids and get married.  Between my 21 and 22 birthdays I got married, joined the Air Force and had a kid.  I should have only done the middle of those things (if any of them).  If it works for you (and it obviously does for many many people), that's great.  For most of us, it doesn't.

Personally I think the idea of having this enormous lacuna in one's twenties when one doesn't have meaningful family responsibilities is perverse, but I'll admit that it's how most people are socialized, it's what most people are prepared for, and I'm shaping up to not really be able to avoid it myself despite really wanting to. This seems like one of those things where how things might ideally be or how one might want the world to be and the way most individual people are actually raised and what they're actually prepared for, at least these days, come into direct and almost irresolvable conflict. People have always wanted to at least have socioeconomic stability in sight before they get married and have kids, and that happens disgustingly late now, at a time in life where female fertility (for women who do want kids) is already starting to decline and, as you said, if one does succeed in having kids one will start to have bad joints and musculoskeletal diseases by the time they're grown.

I'll defer to DFB's analysis of/suspicions about the way the men in his community seem to think. That's definitely concerning.

Really? Not having children or romantic partners in ones twenties is perverse to you?

Not in every instance, no, obviously. What's perverse is that it's been institutionalized as its own stage of life, since going through it has little to no positive effect on eventual relational outcomes and provides an opening for behavior that I believe to be morally wrong.

We're not going to agree on what that morally wrong behavior is or on what good it is to avoid it so I'd advise you mosey on down the road and pick some other battle.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #171 on: October 19, 2016, 03:48:38 AM »
« Edited: October 19, 2016, 04:32:08 AM by Fmr President & Senator Polnut »

I don't know. I've always been good with kids, but it's a sacrifice across the board. We've made a decision to make a call in two years time.

As usual, Atlas tries to over-intellectualise this. It is a far more primal thing, which, of course, terrifies many Atlas posters.
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« Reply #172 on: October 19, 2016, 06:37:26 AM »

Why is this thread still happening?
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« Reply #173 on: October 20, 2016, 09:41:07 PM »

Yes, but via adoption--I'm not comfortable at all adding new people into the world with the state of things.
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