Obama cripples AIPAC
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DavidB.
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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2016, 07:04:11 PM »

It's only a start. America should sever it's one-sided alliance with Israel completely. This also goes for Saudi Arabia.
Vladimir Putin agrees.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2016, 08:14:52 PM »

It's taken decades, but it's good to see we finally have a leader who is willing to openly consider whether our ridiculously one-sided deal with Israel in which we ignore them spying on us and turn a blind eye to their bad behavior while supplying them with billions of dollars carte blanche is actually in our national interests. The United States gets absolutely nothing from its "alliance" with Israel and it's about time the government finally woke up to its strategic folly in committing to this relationship.

I agree that the current situation in US-Israel relations in untenable, but the goal of US policy in this regard certainly shouldn't be to further US interests there. The goal should be to guarantee Israel's security as well as Palestinians' right to having their own State.
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Mr.Phips
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2016, 08:35:53 PM »

About time we stop bending over backwards for Israel.
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Badger
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2016, 08:48:47 PM »

It's taken decades, but it's good to see we finally have a leader who is willing to openly consider whether our ridiculously one-sided deal with Israel in which we ignore them spying on us and turn a blind eye to their bad behavior while supplying them with billions of dollars carte blanche is actually in our national interests. The United States gets absolutely nothing from its "alliance" with Israel and it's about time the government finally woke up to its strategic folly in committing to this relationship.

I agree that the current situation in US-Israel relations in untenable, but the goal of US policy in this regard certainly shouldn't be to further US interests there. The goal should be to guarantee Israel's security as well as Palestinians' right to having their own State.

Bravo!
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OSR stands with Israel
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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2016, 10:09:11 PM »

It's only a start. America should sever it's one-sided alliance with Israel completely. This also goes for Saudi Arabia.
Vladimir Putin agrees.

I would rather ally with Russia then Saudi Arabia
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Horus
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2016, 10:21:23 PM »

About time we stop bending over backwards for Israel.
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Horus
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« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2016, 12:56:23 AM »

It's only a start. America should sever it's one-sided alliance with Israel completely. This also goes for Saudi Arabia.
Vladimir Putin agrees.

Even a broken clock...
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2016, 01:54:02 AM »

AIPAC and current government strategy is all about short-term gains without thinking of the future (but Bibi obviously doesn't care, he won't be in politics anymore when that happens).
Considering Israel faces literal existential threats, I think they can be forgiven for taking a short-term view on this matter.
Literal Existential threats?  You do realize this is 2016, not 1967 or 1973, don't you?  That isn't to say that Israel doesn't face some severe threats, but to say it faces an existential threat is definitely not being literal in what one is saying.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2016, 08:10:09 AM »

AIPAC and current government strategy is all about short-term gains without thinking of the future (but Bibi obviously doesn't care, he won't be in politics anymore when that happens).
Considering Israel faces literal existential threats, I think they can be forgiven for taking a short-term view on this matter.
Literal Existential threats?  You do realize this is 2016, not 1967 or 1973, don't you?  That isn't to say that Israel doesn't face some severe threats, but to say it faces an existential threat is definitely not being literal in what one is saying.

A nuclear Iran, or even a joint invasion by the Iran/Syria/Turkey axis, is definitely an existential threat for Israel.

For the entire ME, in fact.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2016, 09:32:13 AM »

AIPAC and current government strategy is all about short-term gains without thinking of the future (but Bibi obviously doesn't care, he won't be in politics anymore when that happens).
Considering Israel faces literal existential threats, I think they can be forgiven for taking a short-term view on this matter.
Literal Existential threats?  You do realize this is 2016, not 1967 or 1973, don't you?  That isn't to say that Israel doesn't face some severe threats, but to say it faces an existential threat is definitely not being literal in what one is saying.

A nuclear Iran, or even a joint invasion by the Iran/Syria/Turkey axis, is definitely an existential threat for Israel.

For the entire ME, in fact.

Nuclear Iran, remotely.  I think the current regime in Iran is savvy enough to know that first use of said weapons would provoke an immediate and fatal response and that they aren't crazy or desperate enough to engage in such an act because of that.

As for the implausible idea that an Iran/Syria/Turkey axis would invade Israel, what are you smoking? Erdogan has plenty of faults, but wanting to engage in an optional war with Israel is not one of them.  For that matter, the slightly plausible joint Syrian/Iranian invasion ain't gonna happen and if it did, I have enough faith in the IDF being able to repel a conventional military assault by them. That isn't to say that doing so would be pain-free, because it wouldn't, but it wouldn't cause an existential crisis.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2016, 02:15:09 PM »

Syria isn't exactly in a position to invade anyone, let alone Israel, any time in the foreseeable future. The Syrian military, while up from its 2014 lows, is still barely over half the size it was in 2011, and it's fighting many armed factions within its own borders.
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Blue3
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« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2016, 03:11:25 PM »

Quote
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You can't be serious.

Turkey hates Syria.

Syria is a mess.

Iran doesn't border Israel.
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Nhoj
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« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2016, 03:22:38 PM »

It's only a start. America should sever it's one-sided alliance with Israel completely. This also goes for Saudi Arabia.
Vladimir Putin agrees.

I would rather ally with Russia then Saudi Arabia
Pretty sure hes saying Russia would be Israels new best friend, and yes they would pick up the the Saudis aswell
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SATW
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« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2016, 03:46:24 PM »

Threads like this prove that today's liberal and progressive spheres have become ignorant to the threats facing the world.

I've cited Jeane Kirkpatrick before, and I'll do it again:

"When the San Francisco Democrats treat foreign affairs as an afterthought, as they did, they behaved less like a dove or a hawk than like an ostrich - convinced it would shut out the world by hiding its head in the sand."

In this thread...we've seen progressives agree with Iran and agree with PUTIN (while, hypocritically, also accusing Trump of being cozy with him).

It's this idea that limousine progressives know what is better for the world that continuously allows the world to go to chaos. This idea that, somehow, bashing Israel, America, the EU, and others, enough times will make the sponsors of terrorism, the rogue nations, the actual violators of human rights go away or, forgive us, that makes my mind spin in circles.

Supporting the Iran Deal, somehow, creates international stability, but giving aid and weapons to Israel, somehow destabilizes it. A preposterous logic pattern.
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SATW
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« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2016, 05:02:18 PM »


You want an award for being an intellectually dishonest, Edgelord? Because you won't get one from me.

If you legitimately believe that Israel is more of a human rights problem than Russia, Iran or Saudi Arabia, then you, like many on the left, are hypocrites.

I'm sure, also like many leftists, you naively believe the U.S., U.K. and others are also human rights abusers. Which, again, proves Jeane Kirkpatrick's point, but the main difference is that I somehow doubt any other country gets the same level attention on these supposed "human rights" issues from far-left people like Israel does.

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Indy Texas
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« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2016, 06:55:37 PM »


You want an award for being an intellectually dishonest, Edgelord? Because you won't get one from me.

If you legitimately believe that Israel is more of a human rights problem than Russia, Iran or Saudi Arabia, then you, like many on the left, are hypocrites.

I'm sure, also like many leftists, you naively believe the U.S., U.K. and others are also human rights abusers. Which, again, proves Jeane Kirkpatrick's point, but the main difference is that I somehow doubt any other country gets the same level attention on these supposed "human rights" issues from far-left people like Israel does.



At least you're willing to admit that they are a human rights problem.
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Green Line
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« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2016, 07:24:36 PM »


I'm sure, also like many leftists, you naively believe the U.S., U.K. and others are also human rights abusers.


...

You can't be serious. It's the opposite, actually. You'd have to be extremely naive to think that the US and UK don't abuse human rights.

Do you have anything nice to say about the United States?  You're very negative.
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SATW
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« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2016, 08:11:23 PM »


I'm sure, also like many leftists, you naively believe the U.S., U.K. and others are also human rights abusers.


...

You can't be serious. It's the opposite, actually. You'd have to be extremely naive to think that the US and UK don't abuse human rights.

Let me rephrase: It seems to bother leftists more when western or western-leaning nations engage in wars and conflicts when compared to rogue nations.

Leftists try and equate western actions to those of rogue nations. This is extremely problematic, to me, as it should be clear who is in the wrong in those situations (HINT: the countries killing their own people; not the countries trying to stop onslaught).

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heatcharger
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« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2016, 09:14:55 PM »

Let me rephrase: It seems to bother leftists more when western or western-leaning nations engage in wars and conflicts when compared to rogue nations.

Leftists try and equate western actions to those of rogue nations. This is extremely problematic, to me, as it should be clear who is in the wrong in those situations (HINT: the countries killing their own people; not the countries trying to stop onslaught).



Doesn't Israel kill "their own people"? Are Palestinian civilians Israelis in your mind? Look, the illegal occupation is not sustainable without violence from the other side.

My biggest problem is that U.S. foreign policy can't be "support Israel no matter what or else it's an attack on Jews". Netanyahu and AIPAC shouldn't be able to control how we operate.
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SATW
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« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2016, 09:56:41 PM »

Let me rephrase: It seems to bother leftists more when western or western-leaning nations engage in wars and conflicts when compared to rogue nations.

Leftists try and equate western actions to those of rogue nations. This is extremely problematic, to me, as it should be clear who is in the wrong in those situations (HINT: the countries killing their own people; not the countries trying to stop onslaught).



Doesn't Israel kill "their own people"? Are Palestinian civilians Israelis in your mind? Look, the illegal occupation is not sustainable without violence from the other side.

My biggest problem is that U.S. foreign policy can't be "support Israel no matter what or else it's an attack on Jews". Netanyahu and AIPAC shouldn't be able to control how we operate.

No, Israel does not kill their own people. Israel is not the country waging war on its own people (Syria, Venezuela), Israel is not the country that is quasi-run by a terrorist group (Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon, Qatar etc...), Israel is not an apartheid state (Jordan), Israel is not a theocracy (Iran, Saudi Arabia), Israel is not a worldwide sponsor of terrorism (Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia) and Israel is most certainly not a dictatorship (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Qatar, etc...etc..etc..).

So, forgive me if I think you are engaging in massive hyperbole with your statement.

The "occupation" is not "illegal"...the specific elements of international law that is often cited to "prove" this BS has nothing to even do with the settlements....it revolves around forced movement of populations (which was made law after the holocaust), but certainly it could be argued that it is an obstacle to peace.


No, Palestinians who live in Gaza or the West Bank are not Israelis. Wouldn't that imply the denial of a future two state plan? I have always said, on this site, and on other sites, that I am a believer in a two-state solution. Arabs within Israel's borders and Jewish settlements are most definitely citizens who deserve equal rights.

I also will state that I oppose creating new settlements, but I do support many of the ones already made. I think Israel should focus on getting international recognition for the settlements closest to its borders and to empty out settlements closer to the Jordanian border.

But, conversations about Arab rights in Israel and the two-state solution in general cannot happen because the West in complicit in engaging in lazy diplomacy.

Why is the Palestinian leadership in the west bank never pressured to have elections? Yea, I know they are planned to happen soon...but guess what? It's been well over a decade and because of the corrupt, U.N.-endorsed mess known as the PA, it is likely that Hamas will win the elections, if they even happen.

So, we either have to work with corrupt dictators like Mahmoud Abbas or terrorists who seem to have popular support. Great "partners for Israel."

Finally,

AIPAC doesn't control what America does. Not even close. Do people seem to forget that AIPAC has lost on big issues in the past?

Or do we like to make up fantasies for fun? Israel OPPOSED selling arms to the Saudis in the 1980s. Reagan and the GOP defeated AIPAC on the issue and embarrassed them publicly. Just like Obama did on the Iran Deal. The U.S. has, many times, broken with Israel on a multitude of issues. There is  no undue influence on the government by Israel.

Go pedal your conspiracy theories somewhere else. I will eagerly debate the peace process with you, and others (as I have done many times on Atlas). I do have very hawkish positions on these issues, but I don't think I'm so firm in my beliefs that I can't have honest conversations with people who disagree with me.

But I have no patience for ridiculous conspiracy theories about the Israeli lobby controlling the government. It is blatantly false. Just because people like Mearsheimer and Walt state the Israeli lobby runs the show does not mean it is even close to being a fact.

You do not claim the Armenian lobby runs the U.S. Government.
You do not claim the Cuban-American lobby runs the U.S. Government.

Both of have very strong lobbyists on their payroll (especially the Armenian lobby, which is the second strongest foreign/ethnic lobby in the U.S.), like the Israeli lobby, and try and force the U.S.'s hand on international issues.

Yet, no rantings from the left about how pro-embargo Cubans or anti-Azerbaijan/anti-Turkey Armenians run the government.
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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2016, 10:01:37 PM »

Honestly, the world would be a hell of a more peaceful place if we just nuked the entire Middle East and turned it into a parking lot or something (after we take their oil).

So I think there is room for compromise on this issue.
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SATW
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« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2016, 10:02:00 PM »

Also, I've been told that I come off as a bit...strong in my discussions on Israel and foreign policy, so I hope that no one takes my comments personally. Smiley
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2016, 10:21:32 PM »

Why is the Palestinian leadership in the west bank never pressured to have elections? Yea, I know they are planned to happen soon...but guess what? It's been well over a decade and because of the corrupt, U.N.-endorsed mess known as the PA, it is likely that Hamas will win the elections, if they even happen.

So, we either have to work with corrupt dictators like Mahmoud Abbas or terrorists who seem to have popular support. Great "partners for Israel."

The fact that Hamas would likely win the elections is no doubt the biggest reason why there is little pressure for elections.

As for the Palestinians someday being partners, perhaps when Israeli policy changes to act as if that they someday will be partners rather than modern-day Gibeonites, then they someday will be partners.  Shutting them up into arbitrary Bantustans of Israel's choosing isn't exactly conducive to long term peace. For now Israel has the luxury of military and economic superiority over its Arab neighbors, but it acts as if those conditions will always apply, and they won't.

The 90's were a wasted opportunity and both sides squandered the chance that was available then. I don't see any reasonable prospect of peace in this generation, but Israeli policy is precluding any chance of peace in the next generation as well. That's not entirely unreasonable if one thinks peace never has chance of breaking out, but it does mean that in the long term Israel is guaranteed to doom.
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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2016, 10:28:08 PM »

(HINT: the countries killing their own people; not the countries trying to stop onslaught).

Again:


Israel is notorious for killing it's own people. Members of the Palestinian minority are slaughtered by the state every day, and 7/10 of the victims of the Israeli state's ethnic cleansing operation are civilians. I don't see how someone could deny that Israel's human rights record is among the worst of any major country.

And for the record: it's not that we're more frustrated with the atrocities by Israel than Iran because the atrocities committed by the former are worse. The reason that we're more frustrated with Israel's crimes against humanity than Iran's, is because it hits closer to home: most of the people who represent us rightfully call out Iran for it's human rights abuses; on the other hand, both parties bend over backwards to support Israel's barbaric policies, and so much as the slightest criticism of Israel gets one branded as an "anti-Semite".

1.) I have not called anyone an anti-semite in this thread, so that is irrelevant when debating me. I will call something antisemitic when I see it, but it has not occurred in this thread.
2.) No, it is not well-documented that "Israel kills its own people." Also, can you define what you are talking about when you say this? Are you referring to Israeli-Arabs or Palestinians in the West Bank. The former are Israeli citizens, the latter are not. If you mean the former than this is my position: Arabs within Israel who are killed, in most cases, are people who engage in attacks on random Israeli civilians. These are not innocent people frolicking in the streets of Jerusalem. These are people walking around with bombs, with knives and other weapons with the intent to kill Israeli civilians, of all stripes, regardless of religion or ethnicity.

 That being said, of course acts of racism occur in Israel, as they do in any western or western-style society, but like in all of those countries....this is a minority of people.

Another thing: "Opposing occupation" has never been and will never be an excuse in any sane person's view to engage in terror attacks on Israeli streets.

If you are referring to Palestinians in the West Bank as "Israelis" than you are making one of two statements: 1.) Denying a two state solution by calling all of these people Israelis or 2.) Claiming that, somehow, Israel is responsible for anyone and everyone near it. Please elaborate on which one you side with.


3.) It has been well documented that Israel does more than any other western country (especially the U.S. or U.K.) to avoid civilian causalities, but the problem, as has been documented, is that Hamas uses human shields, Hamas hides military hardware, weapons and bases in heavily populated civilian areas and Hamas recruits civilians to fight its fights.

The difference in death tolls from Israel's conflicts and NATO's conflicts are indeed a staggering indictment...against NATO forces. Who gives European or American leftists the right to critique Israel, or similar countries of this stature, when the U.S. and U.K. have racked up, in percentage and in actual numbers, staggering civilian death totals.

If Israel is somehow "barbaric", than the U.S. and the U.K. must be worse as they have killed more civilians than Israel. My opinion is that none of these countries are barbaric.

In fact, this game of nitpicking western nations who fight terrorism is beyond insane. There are people who literally think that the Allies committed democide in WW2 against Nazi Germany. Literally no one takes these people seriously, but that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of thousands of innocent people died in WW2.

Why, all of the sudden, have the goal posts changed? Because leftists need something to feel morally superior on.

Also, this new logic of "Oh, we do it because Israel is one of us" is not legitimate. Either start condemning all western countries, proportionally, for what you perceive to be abuses, or don't do it at all.

Actually, I have a better solution than either those black and white solutions. One could try and understand how this conflict actually works. It's never been pretty, it will never be pretty and that is why war should be avoided at all costs.

However, you can't avoid it if you have western governments actively funding terrorist organizations. There is a crapload of money that goes from the west, from the UN, from UNRWA and straight into the hands of Hamas terrorists in Gaza. This literally was just proven when a "charity" was busted in Gaza for using its donations to fund terrorism.  (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/04/british-donations-to-christian-charity-world-vision-were-used-to/)

Also, millions of dollars go to the corrupt Palestinian Authority who: 1.) either uses the money to enrich its slate of corrupt leaders or 2.) directly or indirectly uses money to fund terror attacks within the West Bank and/or Gaza.

The Palestinians literally have no reason to make peace because they the western world will just crap on Israel.

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heatcharger
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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2016, 10:29:53 PM »

I didn't say Israel was worse in terms of democracy, terrorism, etc. than any of those Middle Eastern countries you mentioned, but there have been many times where Israel has responded to conflicts irresponsibly. For example, when those Isreali teenagers were kidnapped, the Isreali government immediately blamed Hamas without producing concrete evidence. Pretty soon a fundamentalist Jew did the exact same thing to a Palestinian teenager. I'd prefer we didn't live in a world where Hammurabi's code ruled supreme.

In regards to Gaza and West Bank, they have been set up the same way the Indian reservations were; moved from their motherland and put into a confined space. Except this time Muslims are much more equipped to fight back. I obviously despise Hamas and other Islamic extremist groups but it seems only natural when people are moved from where there ancestors were from.

And I'm glad you support at 2-state solution, and I mostly agree that lazy diplomacy is a barrier to that ever happening, but Israel can't come to the table demanding Palestinians stay in their little box.

My biggest piece of evidence of AIPAC's influence on government is the correlation between the amount of money a congressman receives from them and their voting record on pro-Israel bills. I happen to think AIPAC isn't aligned with the belief of most Jews, and that's part of why they've failed recently. They are too far to the right of American Jews who want some form of peace settlement. They probably also didn't like Netanyahu's antics a while back in congress.
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