The tie that saved Rome. Do Western nations need a State Religion?
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  The tie that saved Rome. Do Western nations need a State Religion?
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Author Topic: The tie that saved Rome. Do Western nations need a State Religion?  (Read 1637 times)
DavidB.
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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2016, 08:05:15 PM »

States that historically have had them should keep them, regardless of whether they are "Western". And Israel should most certainly be Jewish.
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Badger
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2016, 11:53:06 AM »

e pluribus unem, mutha fu%kahs
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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2016, 01:03:06 PM »

That sounds like a political super hero cry.
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Badger
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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2016, 07:08:58 PM »


DIBS!! Cheesy
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2016, 03:20:58 PM »

The insistence on having a state religion is part of the reason Christianity is so irrelevant in Europe these days.

Quite a good thing then to continue to push for a less homophobic and misogynous one.

That would make most if not all the religions there irrelevant.

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DL
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« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2016, 03:22:49 PM »


You prefer just allowing the immoral homophobic and misogynous religions to continue to corrupt the morals of your citizens do you?

Or are you respecting those immoral creeds?

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DL
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« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2016, 03:24:50 PM »

The failure of historicity here is amazing.

First, Constantine did not establish a state religion in Rome, Theodosius did seventy years later.


With your first being that far off, I did not bother with your second.

Check your timing against these laws.

Constantine’s laws against free thought and why Christianity became the Western religion.

Here is some history. It's a list of Roman laws starting around Constantine’s time and extending forward from there.

I'll bold and underline the killers for those with limited time.
 
Quote:

http://www.fourthcentury.com/index.php/imperial-laws-364/

313CE Oct 31

Certain catholic clerics are being harassed by heretics so that compulsory public services are too much for them to bear. They should be relieved of their civic duties, and replacements found, and in the future, clerics should not be forced to fulfill compulsory public services.

318CE June 23

Constantine gives Christians the right to take their cases before an ecclesiastical court rather than a secular court. The ruling of those bishops will carry the same authority as a secular court.

325CE

Constantine exhorts the Alexandrians to follow the Nicene faith, which he praises, and to disavow Arius, whom he condemns. The council is to be regarded as the will of God.

326CE Sept 1

Exemption from compulsory public services shall only be granted to clergy of the Catholic Church, and not to heretics or schismatics.

327CE

Constantine invites Arius to his court, where he may end his exile by confessing the Nicene faith before Constantine. Arius is allowed to use public transportation.

333 or 327CE

Constantine orders that Arians now be referred to as Porphyrians, that all works of Arius or Arians be burned, and that anyone hiding a work of Arius suffer capital punishment.

Constantine sends a long, belittling letter to Arius and his followers. At the end, he threatens to heavily fine the Arians and force them to accept compulsory public services unless they immediately return to the catholic faith. If Arius returns, he promises to be lenient.

341CE

Pagan superstition and sacrifices are completely forbidden, in accord with the law set forth by Constantine.

346CE Dec 1

Pagan temples are to be closed; access to them is denied, and violators face capital punishment.
The property of a violator will be given to the state treasury. Governors who fail to carry out this
punishment will be punished.

347CE

The Donatists were ordered to be reconciled with the Catholic Church in North Africa. Those who refused were to be exiled or killed.

352 July 3

Persons who join Judaism from Christianity, if the accusation can be proven, shall have their property confiscated and given to the state treasury.

353 Nov 23

Night-time pagan sacrifices, which had briefly been allowed under the usurper Magnentius, are again forbidden.

356 Feb 20

Those guilty of idolatry or pagan sacrifices must suffer capital punishment.

362

Julian castigates the pagan Alexandrians, who had murdered Athanasius’ rival archbishop George when he ruined the temple of the local god Serapis. They should not have broken the law, but should have taken out their grievances legally.

No Christians are allowed to teach the pagan classics (essentially debarring them from being teachers).
Any student may study them, however.

370CE Feb 17

Laws formerly enacted against Christians under Julian shall have no validity, and policies of the late Constantius are to be upheld.

372CE Mar 2

Manichaeans and similar groups may not assemble. Their teachers will be punished, their followers segregated, and their places of gathering confiscated.

377CE Oct 17

Any who teaches a second baptism is to desist and be restored to the Catholic Church. The uncorrupted faith of the Evangelists and Apostles must be preserved. Furthermore, properties where re-baptizers or other expelled persons gather are to be confiscated.

379 Aug 3

All heresies are forbidden. One may hold to heretical teachings in his own mind but is forbidden to teach them to others, especially the teaching of re-baptism. Assemblies of those who hold to
re-baptism are forbidden, and none may teach this doctrine.

380CE Feb 28

This edict is sometimes referred to as “Cunctos Populos.” Everyone in the empire shall be part of the religion that believes in God as a single Deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit – the Holy Trinity, as taught by St. Peter to the Romans, and now taught by Damasus of Rome and Peter of Alexandria. Only those following this rule shall be called “Catholic Christians.”

Meeting places of those who follow another religion (including heretics of a Christian variety) shall not be given the status of churches, and such people may be subject to both divine and earthly retribution.

381 Jan 10

Heretics shall have no place of meeting. Heretics are defined as those who do not observe the Nicene faith.
The Phontinians, Arians, Eunomians and others are specified, but not exclusively. Their teachings are forbidden.
A definition of the Trinity and the term ousia is established. Catholic churches throughout the empire are to be returned to orthodox bishops. Heretics are to be driven out of the churches and the cities.
The property rights of Manichaeans are revoked, and property inherited from a Manichaean which should have been confiscated by the state is now to be confiscated. Manichaeans are forbidden to gather.

381 May

Christians who have converted to paganism shall not be allowed to make a will, and any will made by such a person is invalidated.

Manichaeans may not inherit property or leave it to others through wills, and any property inherited from a Manichaean is to be confiscated. The only exception is the child of a Manichaean who converts to the Catholic faith. Also, Manichaean assemblies and sacraments are prohibited.

381 July

It is forbidden for Arians, Eunomians, or followers of Aetius to build churches.
If any such churches are built, they will be confiscated.

391CE

Persons with inherited rank or status who abandon Christianity shall lose their position and be branded with infamy.

Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.

so on and so forth... the jackboot is in.

Regards
DL
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2016, 03:27:48 PM »

The fact that they had tried to institutionalize the church probably caused the Fall of the Western Empire. This entire dynamic of extreme social engineering probably caused the French Revolution to fail (them creating a new state religion) and for France to be a much weakened nation. There were attempts between Constantine and Theodosius to find the right mix of tolerance between the Indo-European pantheons and the Church but eventually what happened happened. The 4th century was a relatively stable period between the chaos of the 3rd and the death spiral of the 5th. Could the fact that both traditions had various levels of tolerance kept society relatively stable?

Tolerance!

See the list of laws above and see just what kind of tolerance was around with the Inquisitions that purged those factions that did not want to kowtow to Rome' religion.

Regards
DL
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2016, 03:29:33 PM »

States that historically have had them should keep them, regardless of whether they are "Western". And Israel should most certainly be Jewish.

I agree as religions tend to unify a people when there are no other religions to compete against.

Regards
DL
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 03:31:05 PM »

See the list of laws above and see just what kind of tolerance was around with the Inquisitions that purged those factions that did not want to kowtow to Rome' religion.

The use of the word 'Inquisitions' in this sentence gave me the bubonic plague.

Your last few posts are also a genuinely decent argument against having a state religion.
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2016, 03:32:47 PM »


Tell that to the Christian and Muslim militias forming in the U.S as we write, mutha fu%kahs .

Regards
DL
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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2016, 03:35:18 PM »

See the list of laws above and see just what kind of tolerance was around with the Inquisitions that purged those factions that did not want to kowtow to Rome' religion.

The use of the word 'Inquisitions' in this sentence gave me the bubonic plague.

Your last few posts are also a genuinely decent argument against having a state religion.

If you say so.

Regards
DL
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angus
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2016, 05:57:16 PM »

The tie that saved Rome. Do Western nations need a State Religion?

no, they operate fine without it.

Is creating a State Religion the way to peace?

yes, although it should absorb, and not totally displace, the religious customs of the conquered tribes.
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2016, 03:53:44 PM »

The tie that saved Rome. Do Western nations need a State Religion?

no, they operate fine without it.

Is creating a State Religion the way to peace?

yes, although it should absorb, and not totally displace, the religious customs of the conquered tribes.


Fine?

I would say a lot better if secular law is compared to the theistic laws.

True that the more immoral tribes will hold fast to their immoral ways but at least the rest of us would know whose morals and ideologies have been shown to be lacking.

Regards
DL
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2016, 04:28:40 PM »

Christian and Muslim militias forming in the U.S

wat
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« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2016, 08:07:11 AM »


Ask Google. The results will open your eyes.

Regards
DL
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