Obama vetoes 9/11 bill
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  Obama vetoes 9/11 bill
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Author Topic: Obama vetoes 9/11 bill  (Read 4143 times)
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2016, 07:35:39 AM »

That would be our companies' problem for choosing to business under such a climate. Look, I couldn't care less whether we stick it to Saudi Arabia or are best friends with them, but if the 911 families can win in court against the Saudi government, they deserve the opportunity to have that chance.

Okay, so here's how this works: The 9/11 families sue the government of Saudi Arabia in U.S. federal court. No one from Saudi Arabia shows up to court. The 9/11 families get a default judgment against Saudi Arabia. Technically the 9/11 families "win," but good luck collecting on that judgment. So nobody gets their "day in court" proving their claims against the Saudi government. Therefore, even as a symbolic gesture, this bill is useless.

It could go even worse for the 9/11 families if the court concludes that even their unrebutted argument is unable to prove their case.
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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2016, 07:00:42 PM »

Apparently the Senate is planning to hold the override vote tomorrow.  I considered writing a letter to Gillibrand but probably way too late at this point.

Interesting to note that last week the Senate tabled a resolution to block arms sales to Saudi Arabia.  It seems that some Senators who feel very strongly that 9/11 families should be able to sue the Saudis for sponsoring terrorism have no problem with gleefully providing them with more weapons.  23 dems and 4 republicans supported the resolution.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 11:06:19 AM »

Senate voting to override now!
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Bacon King
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 11:19:24 AM »

There's such a strange dynamic going on here. It seems like opposition to this bill is unanimous: Obama, the CIA, the New York Times, a bunch of former US national security experts, the Kuwaiti government, and many others have all put out statements in opposition to JASTA. Yet in spite of this wall of opposition, the entire Senate remains completely united in passing it. What's going on here?


Also here is Cornyn's argument for passing JASTA and it's pretty convincing.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 12:01:37 PM »

This is a terrible and ill-advised piece of legislation that is based on election-year considerations by politicians who are always anxious to prove that they're "tough on terrorism." There's no evidence that the Saudi government as an institution (as opposed to a handful of individual officials) knowingly assisted the 9/11 hijackers or Al-Qaeda itself - why would a draconian regime assist their sworn enemies anyway?

Plus, this bill was and is a bad idea because not only is it unlikely to be enforced, but it sets a terrible precedent because unlike the House of Saud re: 9/11, the US government HAS terrorized other countries as a matter of official policy (especially during the Cold War).

This is political theater.
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15 Down, 35 To Go
ExtremeRepublican
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 12:19:44 PM »

Only Harry Reid stopped this from being a unanimous override.  This probably sails through the House as well.
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Green Line
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 01:05:25 PM »

Dont ya just love to see Democrats and Republicans working together. Look at what they can accomplish!
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Ebsy
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 01:06:00 PM »

Amazing to see a bunch of Realists voting for this bill.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 01:42:35 PM »

I feel like there's more than meets the eye here. In this polarized era, every Member of Congress voting together, even though the media, the CIA, former Attorneys General, foreign governments, and so many others. Basically everyone outside of Congress thinks it's a terrible thing. Members like Senator Corker explain all the reservations they have about the bill, but then they go and vote for it anyway!

If I had to guess I think this is intentionally a complete break of the USA with the Saudi government. Obama and the CIA and etc are giving the appearances of opposing it so afterwards Obama can still negotiate with Saudi Arabia if necessary, rather than the US face an immediate removal of diplomatic ties.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 01:45:29 PM »
« Edited: September 28, 2016, 02:07:19 PM by Bacon! »

some opposition in the House - 48 aye, 12 no, 1 present

edit: aaand now it's passed! Final vote was 348 aye, 77 nay, 1 present


RIP our relationship with Saudi Arabia
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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 03:20:21 PM »

I know he's retiring, but it's kind of amazing that a vote could happen with the minority leader being the lone Nay vote.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 03:26:03 PM »

Obama, the CIA, the New York Times, a bunch of former US national security experts, the Kuwaiti government, and many others have all put out statements in opposition to JASTA. Yet in spite of this wall of opposition, the entire Senate remains completely united in passing it.

Good.
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 03:29:22 PM »

I feel like there's more than meets the eye here. In this polarized era, every Member of Congress voting together, even though the media, the CIA, former Attorneys General, foreign governments, and so many others. Basically everyone outside of Congress thinks it's a terrible thing. Members like Senator Corker explain all the reservations they have about the bill, but then they go and vote for it anyway!

If I had to guess I think this is intentionally a complete break of the USA with the Saudi government. Obama and the CIA and etc are giving the appearances of opposing it so afterwards Obama can still negotiate with Saudi Arabia if necessary, rather than the US face an immediate removal of diplomatic ties.

see I would think that, if it weren't for the fact that only 27 Senators voted for the amendment against the Saudi arms deal, with Lindsey Graham concern-trolling about the Saudis being essential bulwarks against spooky spooky shias.
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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 03:39:40 PM »

Interesting coalition of nay votes in the House... including people like Raul Grijalva, Jim Clyburn, and Maxine Waters from the Dems and Jason Chaffetz, Don Young, and Steve King from the Republicans.
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« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2016, 04:01:13 PM »

Interesting coalition of nay votes in the House... including people like Raul Grijalva, Jim Clyburn, and Maxine Waters from the Dems and Jason Chaffetz, Don Young, and Steve King from the Republicans.
Yeah...MN's delegation in the house was kind of odd...

The two most progressive DFLers (Ellison and McCollum) and neocon/Boehnerite John Kline voted to sustain while the outstaters (DFLers Peterson, Nolan, and Walz) joined suburban GOPers Emmer and Paulsen to override.  Totally random.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2016, 04:13:10 PM »

Interesting coalition of nay votes in the House... including people like Raul Grijalva, Jim Clyburn, and Maxine Waters from the Dems and Jason Chaffetz, Don Young, and Steve King from the Republicans.

Where can I find the roll call of the vote? My google fu is failing to find it
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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2016, 04:15:51 PM »

Interesting coalition of nay votes in the House... including people like Raul Grijalva, Jim Clyburn, and Maxine Waters from the Dems and Jason Chaffetz, Don Young, and Steve King from the Republicans.

Where can I find the roll call of the vote? My google fu is failing to find it

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2016/roll564.xml
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Bacon King
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« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2016, 06:20:03 PM »

interesting observation: a majority of the House Intelligence Committee voted no
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Badger
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« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2016, 06:52:18 PM »

There's such a strange dynamic going on here. It seems like opposition to this bill is unanimous: Obama, the CIA, the New York Times, a bunch of former US national security experts, the Kuwaiti government, and many others have all put out statements in opposition to JASTA. Yet in spite of this wall of opposition, the entire Senate remains completely united in passing it. What's going on here?


Also here is Cornyn's argument for passing JASTA and it's pretty convincing.

Yeah, I'm largely convinced by Cornyn. Obama goofed here.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2016, 07:33:40 PM »
« Edited: September 28, 2016, 07:35:18 PM by PR »

FTR, while I don't like this legislation, I actually think the US divesting as much as possible from Saudi Arabia is a good (indeed, urgent) idea if only to get as far away as possible from the coming fall of the House of Saud and the calamity that will surely ensue (which was historically predictable because the Kingdom is essentially an agglomeration of various different family/kinship groups who were violently coerced into accepting the despotic rule of the House of Saud and its Wahhabi allies - both groups themselves being far from unified other than that they will ruthless put down any real or perceived threat to their rule). Basically, a century of  inter-and-intrafamily intrigue, manipulation, and even outright violence is coming to a head now and the fundamental instability and precarious nature of Saudi Arabia is being revealed for all to see ("heightening the contradictions" amirite).

The really frightening thing, however, is that because the Saudi-Wahhabi establishment have had little desire to cultivate any kind of civil society other than hopelessly dogmatic, backward, and pro-regime Wahhabist religious institutions, when the chickens come home to roost - as they are starting to now - the only alternatives to their rule will be, in all likelihood, a bunch of warring Al-Qaeda-style factions that will each be making claims to an Islamic State. Exit the House of Saud, enter the Islamic State (s) of the Arabian Peninsula. Not good!

I do find it curious, though, that the Iranian regime - which openly supports terrorism against the US and its allies as a matter of official policy - is somehow seen as the Lesser of Two Evils these days, because they fight ISIS or whatever. Granted, there's almost certainly less pro-terrorism-against-the-West sentiment among the Iranian population than among the Saudis....
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heatcharger
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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2016, 09:32:40 PM »

FTR, while I don't like this legislation, I actually think the US divesting as much as possible from Saudi Arabia is a good (indeed, urgent) idea if only to get as far away as possible from the coming fall of the House of Saud and the calamity that will surely ensue (which was historically predictable because the Kingdom is essentially an agglomeration of various different family/kinship groups who were violently coerced into accepting the despotic rule of the House of Saud and its Wahhabi allies - both groups themselves being far from unified other than that they will ruthless put down any real or perceived threat to their rule). Basically, a century of  inter-and-intrafamily intrigue, manipulation, and even outright violence is coming to a head now and the fundamental instability and precarious nature of Saudi Arabia is being revealed for all to see ("heightening the contradictions" amirite).

The really frightening thing, however, is that because the Saudi-Wahhabi establishment have had little desire to cultivate any kind of civil society other than hopelessly dogmatic, backward, and pro-regime Wahhabist religious institutions, when the chickens come home to roost - as they are starting to now - the only alternatives to their rule will be, in all likelihood, a bunch of warring Al-Qaeda-style factions that will each be making claims to an Islamic State. Exit the House of Saud, enter the Islamic State (s) of the Arabian Peninsula. Not good!

I do find it curious, though, that the Iranian regime - which openly supports terrorism against the US and its allies as a matter of official policy - is somehow seen as the Lesser of Two Evils these days, because they fight ISIS or whatever. Granted, there's almost certainly less pro-terrorism-against-the-West sentiment among the Iranian population than among the Saudis....

Great post. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia has always been extremely problematic, and even more so after 9/11. I don't like the possibility of being friendly with Iran either for the reasons you stated.

The problem with this bill is that Saudi Arabia will inevitably retaliate. OPEC already announced they are cutting oil production, which lead to a 5% rise in the price of oil today, and that hurts the pockets of average Americans. Obama knew this.

A major component in the process of loosening Saudi Arabian relations is energy independence, but I obviously don't think an expanded reliance on fracking is the way to go.
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GMantis
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2016, 02:39:36 PM »

This may be the dumbest bill of all time.  I wish Obama had a Tinder-esque super-veto that he could use once a year to stop particularly stupid bills without any override.

We have international courts for international legal action... domestic courts have absolutely no sovereignty over foreign nations or foreign nationals, so any ruling would be useless except for propaganda and stirring-up-sh**t purposes... but as others have pointed out, we're also basically rubber-stamping any other country that decides to take this same route to create propaganda and stir up sh**t against us.
Except for freezing any Saudi assets in the US and confiscating any winnings awarded to the plaintiffs. Which is the main reason there is so much opposition to this.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2016, 05:10:57 PM »

okay, as far as i can tell this covers virtually every Congressman who voted to sustain the veto:

- is a public member of the House Freedom Caucus
- is a member of the Congressional Black Caucus
- is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus
- is a member of the House Intelligence Committee
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2016, 05:52:06 PM »

okay, as far as i can tell this covers virtually every Congressman who voted to sustain the veto:

- is a public member of the House Freedom Caucus
- is a member of the Congressional Black Caucus
- is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus
- is a member of the House Intelligence Committee

What an odd coalition.
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Shadows
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« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2016, 04:07:49 AM »

How legal was the war in Iraq?

I mean these things ideally should happen - Saudis are one of the most radical negative force. You do this if you are nice peace loving country who has been wronged time n again.

Not when millions have been killed in Iraq in an illegal war n when you are funneling guns n money in Syria n everywhere possible where there is a conflict n possibility to gain politically.

Morally 100% right, politically beyond stupid!
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