Social democratic parties today

[Phony Moderate]

Let's take a look...

UK Labour - Divided as eff. Possibly heading for a general election result (be it under Corbyn or someone else) that is going to make 1931 look like...1931 from the Tories' POV...if you listen to the media anyhow. In a better state than Scottish Labour though!!!

Irish Labour - Misnamed party who have (even by their standards) comedic poll ratings. Currently in a close battle for fourth place with Trotsys.

SPD of Germany - Laughably uninspiring party, stuck at around 20% in the polls. No sign of forming a government led by itself this millennium.

French PS - Have the presidency and the president is about to come (at the very very best) a poor third to a crook and a fascist.

PASOK of Greece - Have been ousted by the hard left as the main alternative to the right. Only people who vote for them still are only doing it out of habit and/or ignorance of recent events.

New Zealand Labour - It's been quite literally a decade since a single opinion poll showed them in the lead. Have gone through various nonentity leaders. Lucky that FPTP is no more.

Canadian NDP - Probably in a better state than most on this list due to the realistic possibility (this IS Canada after all) that they could win the next federal election with 68% of the vote and all but two seats. Still, pretty sucky that, after decades of effort, their time in OO was so brief.


And there's various other examples of course, but I cannot be bothered.

[President Johnson]

Yeah, it's a disaster. A big part of these problems are the permanent fights between the repective left and pragmatist wings in many of these parties. Another reason is the globalization I think, but that is very very complex to explain. Social Democrat's classic voter base, "the worker" is disappearing over time or switching to right-wing-populists because they fear open borders and the refugee problem. Both of these developments are a product of globalization.

However, here in Germany the conservative CDU of Merkel is also having trouble. Especially at the state level (only five out 16 state governors; the SPD has nine; with two from The Left and the Greens).

But I am still convinced that pragmatic Social Democracy is still the best answer to the problems of our time.

[Slow Learner]

The SDLP isn't doing too well unfortunately because of their failure to establish themselves as anything other than 'not sinn fein'.

[Person Man]

This thread reminds me of the "is liberalism dead?" threads from 15 years ago. A lot of people are asking if liberal democracy is going the way communism and whether something like  feudalism will dominate the openning centuries of the 3rd millennium.

[parochial boy]

It's no secret that the old establishment social democratic parties have struggled to come up with an adequate response to the way the world has gone in recent years.

They have failed to come up with a response to the rise of nationalism as a response to globalisation, and have failed to offer a convincing economic alternative to the "their is no other way" dogma of market liberalism, either choosing to sell out an adopt it (the French PS, Labour) or by clinging on to narratives of full employment/nationalisation/trade unions that people can't relate to in this world of "flexible" employment and automisation.

[Person Man]

It's no secret that the old establishment social democratic parties have struggled to come up with an adequate response to the way the world has gone in recent years.

They have failed to come up with a response to the rise of nationalism as a response to globalisation, and have failed to offer a convincing economic alternative to the "their is no other way" dogma of market liberalism, either choosing to sell out an adopt it (the French PS, Labour) or by clinging on to narratives of full employment/nationalisation/trade unions that people can't relate to in this world of "flexible" employment and automisation.

The question is what replaces it as the alternative to the establishment. It could be that Nationalism replaces it and the establishment becomes a liberal socially liberal libertarian-leaning alternative. Or it could be something post-national or post-liberal like more control by business or something totally technocratic.

Basically, the post ww2 era could have been defined as the pro-business traditionalists against the pro-labor non-conformists. That could change to be the nationalist establishment against the pro-business non-conformists. The 2025 and 2050 could look like 1825 or 1850.

[DavidB.]

Add the Dutch Labour Party, heading for an absolute all-time low and seventh place in the upcoming general election. It is wholly unclear what their achievements in the government with the VVD are; many voters don't think there are any. Budget cuts on healthcare and education have continued unabated under Labour's watch, and the King was allowed to make a speech in which he stated that the welfare state should be transformed to a "participatory state", which roughly means taxes will remain high, but one should not expect the government to actually do anything. Sad!

[Person Man]

Add the Dutch Labour Party, heading for an absolute all-time low and seventh place in the upcoming general election. It is wholly unclear what their achievements in the government with the VVD are; many voters don't think there are any. Budget cuts on healthcare and education have continued unabated under Labour's watch, and the King was allowed to make a speech in which he stated that the welfare state should be transformed to a "participatory state", which roughly means taxes will remain high, but one should not expect the government to actually do anything. Sad!

You think this is because they can'trely on inflationary spending because of the Euro? It's probably a good idea in the long run but not now..

[Hatman 🍁]

Canadian NDP - Probably in a better state than most on this list due to the realistic possibility (this IS Canada after all) that they could win the next federal election with 68% of the vote and all but two seats. Still, pretty sucky that, after decades of effort, their time in OO was so brief.

It is Canada, but the chances of the NDP winning the next election are next to nil. It's hard to predict what will happen right now as they are leaderless, though. I think right now only someone like Jagmeet Singh could save the party (a minority, charismatic, young) in the near term. Of course, nobody knows who he is now, but he is a rock star in the making.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Could one of the issues be the aging of the general population across the West? The heydays of these parties was off population booms of young, err, workers who wanted employment. Now the population (especially the voting population) is more likely to be retirees after stability over reform.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The thing is the situation is not actually any better for other parties of the Left. The Western Communist tradition continues to roll slowly towards its eventual grave and newer Left/Populist forces (where they exist, and they mostly don't) have turned out to have a rather more limited appeal than the effusive prose of their boosterists predicted. And whatever we think of Green parties (and their electoral position is not that great either and with very low ceilings) they are not exactly fishing in the same pool for the most part.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The thing is the situation is not actually any better for other parties of the Left. The Western Communist tradition continues to roll slowly towards its eventual grave and newer Left/Populist forces (where they exist, and they mostly don't) have turned out to have a rather more limited appeal than the effusive prose of their boosterists predicted. And whatever we think of Green parties (and their electoral position is not that great either and with very low ceilings) they are not exactly fishing in the same pool for the most part.

Will we all be Justin Trudeau in the future?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, this isn't a good time to be a left-winger.

[parochial boy]

The question is what replaces it as the alternative to the establishment. It could be that Nationalism replaces it and the establishment becomes a liberal socially liberal libertarian-leaning alternative. Or it could be something post-national or post-liberal like more control by business or something totally technocratic.

Basically, the post ww2 era could have been defined as the pro-business traditionalists against the pro-labor non-conformists. That could change to be the nationalist establishment against the pro-business non-conformists. The 2025 and 2050 could look like 1825 or 1850.

nationalism will replace socialism in the short term, but as nationalism doesn't have any genuine responses to the world as it is, we will continue to see spiralling inequality and a new gilded age.

All of which will usher in a communist revolution. Or something.

I think new ideas such as Unconditional Basic Income, mutualism, and a case for supranational authorities on things like wages or tax and business regulations might be the way forward, and may be an easier sell once nationalist retrenchment fails.

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

Well, all still better than Polish SLD or Razem.


SLD - party which decreased CIT and wanted to implement flat tax rate. Currently outside parliament, have some councilors on the local level. Probably will come back in next elections but this is not sure.

Razem - new left, some thing they are latte socialdemocrats, some think they are communists but as for now they have no influence on real politics so who cares.

[DavidB.]

You think this is because they can'trely on inflationary spending because of the Euro? It's probably a good idea in the long run but not now..

Nah, it's really because the choices made in the coalition agreement simply don't resonate with potential Labour voters. They don't understand why they have to pay 100 euros more for health care, they don't understand why monetary gifts for students have replaced by student loans under a Labour education minister (the money isn't even saved but goes to "an improvement in the quality of education", which means more managers will be appointed), and they don't understand why Labour has basically accepted the VVD's push for "reforms" -- and I think they are absolutely right, because this is not what Labour had campaigned on.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Do we count the Italian Democrats as social Democrats?

[Person Man]

The question is what replaces it as the alternative to the establishment. It could be that Nationalism replaces it and the establishment becomes a liberal socially liberal libertarian-leaning alternative. Or it could be something post-national or post-liberal like more control by business or something totally technocratic.

Basically, the post ww2 era could have been defined as the pro-business traditionalists against the pro-labor non-conformists. That could change to be the nationalist establishment against the pro-business non-conformists. The 2025 and 2050 could look like 1825 or 1850.

nationalism will replace socialism in the short term, but as nationalism doesn't have any genuine responses to the world as it is, we will continue to see spiralling inequality and a new gilded age.

All of which will usher in a communist revolution. Or something.

I think new ideas such as Unconditional Basic Income, mutualism, and a case for supranational authorities on things like wages or tax and business regulations might be the way forward, and may be an easier sell once nationalist retrenchment fails.

This almost makes a case for Trump, Putin, LePen, Farrange, Dueterte et al. That is that we don't expect nationalism to fix anything but will intstead push up the reckoning needed to "start over" from a couple of decades to a few years from now. It may seem irresponsible (and it is) but would you rather deal with a major time of turbulation when you are 55 or 35?

[Pyro]

Yeah, this isn't a good time to be a left-winger.

Has it ever been?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, this isn't a good time to be a left-winger.

Has it ever been?

1945-1973 seems like it was a pretty sweet time, all in all.

[parochial boy]

This almost makes a case for Trump, Putin, LePen, Farrange, Dueterte et al. That is that we don't expect nationalism to fix anything but will intstead push up the reckoning needed to "start over" from a couple of decades to a few years from now. It may seem irresponsible (and it is) but would you rather deal with a major time of turbulation when you are 55 or 35?

I don't disagree, the rise of the nationalist right terrifies me, but in response to the hypothetical situation you posited, whereby the option was a right wing, liberal right against a populist-nationalist right; I would still try and have some hope of an eventual renaissance of truly egalitarian politics.

[Person Man]

This almost makes a case for Trump, Putin, LePen, Farrange, Dueterte et al. That is that we don't expect nationalism to fix anything but will intstead push up the reckoning needed to "start over" from a couple of decades to a few years from now. It may seem irresponsible (and it is) but would you rather deal with a major time of turbulation when you are 55 or 35?

I don't disagree, the rise of the nationalist right terrifies me, but in response to the hypothetical situation you posited, whereby the option was a right wing, liberal right against a populist-nationalist right; I would still try and have some hope of an eventual renaissance of truly egalitarian politics.

What would you rather have? Bob Casey/Gene Taylor / Marco Rubio opposition to Trump or a Mike Gravel/Gary Johnson style opposition? What do you think it would be? Whatdo you think will take for the pendulum to swing back do you think this was it for Humanism/Enlightenment?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Do we count the Italian Democrats as social Democrats?

Despite the fact that they are the surprising child of the DCs and PCI yes.

[Person Man]

Do we count the Italian Democrats as social Democrats?

Despite the fact that they are the surprising child of the DCs and PCI yes.

Interesting how Renzi has used Obama and Clinton as a model. Can socdems really use ordoliberals as a model for success?

[parochial boy]

What would you rather have? Bob Casey/Gene Taylor / Marco Rubio opposition to Trump or a Mike Gravel/Gary Johnson style opposition?

To be honest, I might marginally prefer the former, but would expect the latter.

Whatdo you think will take for the pendulum to swing back do you think this was it for Humanism/Enlightenment?

No I don't think this is it, but the left needs to come up with better answers than what it has at the moment. I'm not exactly coming up with any excellent new insight by saying the left has lost its connection with its own base - because the answers it offers hark back to an era that doesn't really exist any more.

Otherwise, I don't understand your line of questioning, i don't feel particularly optimistic in the short term, because left wing parties manifestly are struggling; but I do feel more optimistic in the long run, because my own belief is the left wing has fundamentally the right diagnosis and the best policies.