Israel and Palestine

[Famous Mortimer]

A single unified state wouldn't have two official nationalities. Very few states have "official nationalities" at all. They are just the states of the people who live there.

[parochial boy]

I would assume any one state solution would be based on a Northern Ireland style consociatioanlism, with recognition of both (and probably Christan, Druze and Bedouin too). Especially seeing as Palestinians and Israelis would be roughly equal in number.

[ag]

With regards to the Israeli left being too pro-2 state, I've had this discussion before on here. I just don't believe it. Certainly many young activists on the left are open to a single, non-Jewish state. Even among the establishment politicians of the centre-left, I think many have secretly made peace with the idea. Publicly they are very strong for 2 states though because they are worried about being painted as traitors or unpatriotic. It's simply overcompensation. The same reason they call their party "Zionist Union". It reminds me of how American Democrats backed the Iraq War and opposed gay marriage to prove they weren't dangerous radicals but as soon as the political winds become more favorable, they revealed their real positions.

With regards to Gaza, I'm even more sure you are wrong there. Egypt will not take it. It might become independent for an interim period but as soon as tensions with Israel ease (which is likely if West Bank Arabs are given citizenship), immigration and cross border trade will dramatically increase. Israel and Gaza will become economically entwined in such a way that unification will become inevitable (especially if the Israeli Arabs continually campaign for it).

As an Israeli center-leftist who knows many like me, I have to disagree. The left will never support a unified state with two official nationalities (Jewish and Palestinian) because it would mean the complete destruction of the zionist dream. I firmly believe that the only way for zionism and Israel to survive is a two-state solution, and I want to believe that Israelis and Palestinians will slowly realize it too. The survival of Israel as a Democratic, Jewish state is vital for all Jews worldwide.

I have to agree with you on much of this - except, of course, for the last sentence. As a Jew, I believe we all would have been better off if Israel/Palestine were simply a democratic state without any oficial Jewishness beyond the one imposed by its population composition.

But, otherwise, of course, I see exactly where you are coming from. What many people here forget is that most of Israeli left is Zionist left. And Zionism has a meaning. Now, not being a Zionist I can personally agree that - for me - a single non-sectarian state would be preferable. But I also do know that no Zionist would accept that. Our non-Jewish friends here simply do not have the sense where all of this is originating and how strong it is.

[ag]

A single unified state wouldn't have two official nationalities. Very few states have "official nationalities" at all. They are just the states of the people who live there.

It seems natural to you (or to me) - but it is earthshattering to pretty much all Zionist Israelis, left or Right. It is like saying that a single unified religion would not have two gods - it would simply have no gods. Zionism is stuck in the late 19th century, with all its romantic nationalist shibboleths.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Well, you're probably right about what would be best, but it's probably a utopian vision. The bitterness between Israelis and Palestinians is imply too big unfourtunately, so we need a "divorce". And idk if it's an old-fashioned idea of nationalism, but I do still believe that the Jews need a state where they're the main nationality. I'm an atheist, and certainly don't believe all this talk I often hear of the Jews being special in any way, but as a people that managed to stay fairly unified despite being spread all over the world (funnily enough, now that we have a state this unification is threatened), I think that they have to right to a sovereign state that will keep their interests. At least until the idea of nationalism stops being so prominent all over the world- which will be a very happy day, imo.

[ag]

Well, you're probably right about what would be best, but it's probably a utopian vision. The bitterness between Israelis and Palestinians is imply too big unfourtunately, so we need a "divorce". And idk if it's an old-fashioned idea of nationalism, but I do still believe that the Jews need a state where they're the main nationality. I'm an atheist, and certainly don't believe all this talk I often hear of the Jews being special in any way, but as a people that managed to stay fairly unified despite being spread all over the world (funnily enough, now that we have a state this unification is threatened), I think that they have to right to a sovereign state that will keep their interests. At least until the idea of nationalism stops being so prominent all over the world- which will be a very happy day, imo.

I know where you are coming from. The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world. I do not need your state any more than I need Papua New Guinea. As for the rest, it is your battle to fight.

[DavidB.]

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world. I do not need your state any more than I need Papua New Guinea.

No deal. As a Jew, I need the existence of Israel more than I need the existence of the country of which I hold a passport (though I obviously love and value the existence of both).

[ag]

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world. I do not need your state any more than I need Papua New Guinea.

No deal. As a Jew, I need the existence of Israel more than I need the existence of the country of which I hold a passport (though I obviously love and value the existence of both).

You are welcome to go to Israel and become the citizen of the anti-Jewish state yourself. Just do not mix me into this.

[DavidB.]

Again, no deal, I'm afraid...

[Hnv1]

Atlas Israel-Palestine thread are so annoying. Maybe just create a megathread for this gobsh**te. I though this board is terrible only in the run up for a presidential election...

[DavidB.]

Atlas Israel-Palestine thread are so annoying. Maybe just create a megathread for this gobsh**te. I though this board is terrible only in the run up for a presidential election...

Internet discussions on muh opinionzzz of or feelzzz about the Arab-Israeli conflict are in general annoying -- always and everywhere. I prefer analyzing Israeli political developments instead.

[ag]

Again, no deal, I'm afraid...

And I am not asking for a deal from you. As you know full well, I do not even consider you Jewish.

[DavidB.]

Again, no deal, I'm afraid...

And I am not asking for a deal from you. As you know full well, I do not even consider you Jewish.

who care -- halacha does...

are you gonna throw a fit at The Atlas again? lmao

[ag]

are you gonna throw a fit at The Atlas again? lmao

I am not the one asking for a deal

[DavidB.]

I am not the one asking for a deal

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world.

[ag]

I am not the one asking for a deal

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world.

I was not talking to you. In fact, let me quote from you, just a bit up this same thread:

... I need the existence of Israel more than I need the existence of the country of which I hold a passport (though I obviously love and value the existence of both).

I think, I can reasonably conclude from this that you are not an Israeli citizen. Hence, in my book you have no more to do with Israel than with Papua New Guinea. And I was talking to an Israeli here.

[MalaspinaGold]

Fat Sweaty Mexican off his meds again? SAD!
Anyway threads on this topic need to not happen.

[ag]

Fat Sweaty Mexican off his meds again? SAD!
Anyway threads on this topic need to not happen.

I am fat, indeed, but the weather here is pretty cool in every sense of the word, so no sweat. And, praise Tlaloc, no meds

[ag]

Atlas Israel-Palestine thread are so annoying. Maybe just create a megathread for this gobsh**te. I though this board is terrible only in the run up for a presidential election...

What makes you so annoyed here? This one has been, positively, tame, compared to what we have had in the past

[ag]

Just one illustration for why many of us, as diaspora Jews, would prefer not to be associated in any way with the state of Israel. As many of you have, probably, heard, recently there has been some bruhaha at the UNESCO over, whatever. Israel took umbrage and complained left right and center. So, our sorry excuse for a foreign secretary (who chose not to resign after the Trump visit!) now fired Mexican ambassador for "not informing" her about the issue beforehand (as if she, actually, cared). So, anyway, a good Jewish guy has now been fired for doing what he thought was in the interest of his country because Israel complained. As a Mexican Jew I cannot say I am happy

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I'm glad that ag is secure enough to not see any need for Israel. I wish my great-uncles in Reichskommissariat Ostland had been so secure.

[ag]

I'm glad that ag is secure enough to not see any need for Israel. I wish my great-uncles in Reichskommissariat Ostland had been so secure.

My grandfather lost at least 13 uncles and aunts in Uman. The family of my great grandmother was wiped out in Alytus. I do not have to imagine "somewhere in Ostland" - many of those places are real to me.

A cousin of my grandma survived the Riga ghetto. He collected stamps after the war:  in his telling, a stamp was simply a necessary precaution, since gold would be confiscated at the time of the arrest, but a valuable stamp could survive undetected - yet, there would always be somebody who would know its worth and be willing to exchange it for food. He sold his collection when Latvia joined the EU in 2004 - he felt safe. And he was right. What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more. If liberal institutions collapse, we will only have postage stamps to protect us.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

[ag]

And why run?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tucholsky