Israel and Palestine

[DavidB.]

Could the U.S. conduct a two state resolution for Israel and Palestine?

No.

[DavidB.]

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world. I do not need your state any more than I need Papua New Guinea.

No deal. As a Jew, I need the existence of Israel more than I need the existence of the country of which I hold a passport (though I obviously love and value the existence of both).

[DavidB.]

Again, no deal, I'm afraid...

[DavidB.]

Atlas Israel-Palestine thread are so annoying. Maybe just create a megathread for this gobsh**te. I though this board is terrible only in the run up for a presidential election...

Internet discussions on muh opinionzzz of or feelzzz about the Arab-Israeli conflict are in general annoying -- always and everywhere. I prefer analyzing Israeli political developments instead.

[DavidB.]

Again, no deal, I'm afraid...

And I am not asking for a deal from you. As you know full well, I do not even consider you Jewish.

who care -- halacha does...

are you gonna throw a fit at The Atlas again? lmao

[DavidB.]

I am not the one asking for a deal

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world.

[DavidB.]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

The State of Israel is the number one institution that keeps us safe everywhere in the world.

It is really quite striking how colonized ag's line of reasoning is. Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized. They held on to their identity. By contrast, in ag's ideal world, Jews would simply assimilate and cease to exist, and in the absence of that utopia we should remain at the mercy of others (MUH EU!). No independence. No self-respect. No strength. No pride. Really sad.

[DavidB.]

Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized.

1. Ghetto is what preserved Jewishness over the milenia. If not for it there would have been no Jews today. It was what our ancestors were, it was their choice.  While I myself have no desire to return to one, repudiating the ghetto, in my book, is betrayal.

It was not their choice. But I agree with the rest of what you say here, as you could have understood from my post. I also largely agree with your paragraph on unassimilable minorities having the right to be who they are, to live how they want to.

2. Our ancestors had pride. You, however, despise them. I respect them for what they were.

It seems you have strong feelzzz on this, but you never care to elaborate on this and that's obviously because you simply cannot. It is not me but you who does not respect our ancestors.

3. One thing they did not do is opress others. I do not think there can be a better reason to be proud of being anyone's offspring. That is, in fact, the highest nobility there can be.

hurrrr durrrrrr palestinians r the new jews me so edgy

4. I do not want any mercy. Least of all, I would like to remain at your mercy - I would not believe in it for a second. Nor do I believe in the mercy of the State of Israel.

You will never remain at my mercy, and that is fortunate, because I would probably not be good enough of a person to grant it to you even if I'd hope otherwise. But all is in the hands of G-d, who is infinitely better than I am. The State, by the way, is not merciful either, as any former Gush Katif resident can tell you. Yet G-d is.

The more interesting question, however, is why you came up with the term mercy. I haven't mentioned it. Strong Jews need no mercy from anyone but G-d. It shows something about your mentality. That's rather tragic.

5. It is not the mercy of the EU that I believe in. It is its nature.

Liberal institutionalism is nothing more than a tool for the strong to remain strong. The weak seldom profit from it, and if they do, it is on an indirect basis. If you believe in the nature of the EU it's because you have become part of the strong. On the basis of your own definition, would you still be a Jew in that case?

6. And if I am wrong on that last count there will be nowhere to run in any case.

There will be, somewhere to the south of Lebanon -- because of better Jews than you.

Otherwise I disagree with your unsustainable cultural libertarianism but not to the point where I care much for it -- yours is the opinion of the majority of non-observant, non-Israeli Jews in this day and age. The consequence of it, however, would definitely be that we are to assimilate out of existence. Without Torah, Jews stop being Jews in a few generations. They literally stop knowing they're Jewish. It is not something I would want for my children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. But the consequence of Jews like you making your lifestyle choices and Jews like me making mine is that the Jews with the strongest identities will remain and the ones with the weakest identities will assimilate, and I won't lose sleep over that.

[DavidB.]

we should remain at the mercy of others

followed by

The more interesting question, however, is why you came up with the term mercy. I haven't mentioned it.

So, I wonder. Do you read your own posts?

Hmm, it appears I read too fast. Hope you feel good about yourself right now!

Israelis have develped into something I do not recognize as remotely Jewish, anyway. The cult of the soldier alone is something that is highly distasteful. And, of course, whoever thinks falafel and humus are their ethnic food are, by defnition, Arabs in my book, whatever their religion may be. They are not my tribe, and I am not theirs.

My tribe is nearly dead, anyway. Yiddishkayt is gone. All that is left is gefilte fish, and even that is becoming increasingly stale.

Whoever thinks Judaism is about food is silly. I, for one, have never come to like the taste of hummus. Then again, as a vegetarian, I say no to gefilte fish too

On a more serious note, the Old Jew vs. New Jew thing has always been utterly silly (even if it has empowered us in critical times, when it was arguably necessary). Jews are both Yehuda HaMaccabi and the Torah scholar in the ghetto. Anyone who persuades themselves into believing either the thinking Jew or the fighting Jew isn't really Jewish is wrong and historically illiterate.

Strength is entirely orthogonal to anything I care about. It is a Trumpista shibboleth, that I have no meaning or need for.

And no, EU is not about strength or the strong. It is about a conscious restriction on strength. Countries (I do not like the word "Nations") denying their own sovereignty, restricting their freedom, to avoid harming those around them. In the end, EU is about humility, not strength. The greatest European statesman today is Angela Merkel, not the lepens and farages.

Trump isn't about strength, he's all about exploiting people's weaknesses and enabling them to be the worst versions of themselves, and, at the risk of sounding like some liberal Reformnik, that is literally the opposite of Judaism in which people ought to strive to be the best versions of themselves. As for the EU, I'm a "believer" in rational choice theory, and European politicians have consistently gone through with the European integration process simply because it has greatly benefited them and people like them. It has produced the political cleavage that is becoming ever more salient. The EU has brought about some good developments, mainly regarding free trade and the common market, but it has had quite some downsides too, and in any case one thing it most certainly did not do: change Europeans. As a Jew in Europe I do not have any illusions regarding Jews' (non-existent) "whiteness", and recent developments in, for instance, Sweden have only strengthened that impression.  

I do not expect you to be. You would need to have a sense of shame for that - something, which, in all probability, you are constituionally incapable of feeling.

There is no shame in defending one's people and one's land.

Zionism has always been built on despising the ghetto. Zionists hated the backwardness, the humbleness, the zhargon - everything that has made the Jews the Jews. Zionism is religion of proud children, based on despising their parents.

Zionism didn't start in Europe -- it started in Egypt and has always lived on in the soul of every Jew. You are talking about early modern Zionism, not about Zionism. I don't have much in common with any particular brand of early modern Zionism. All were wrong on many issues and especially Labour Zionism committed certain terrible crimes. They were necessary in the grand scheme of things but that's about it. Zionism is not about despising the Jewish past, and those Zionists who did were mistaken.

So, if ghetto was not a choice, and, given that you agree with the rest, are you going to thank those who forced the Jews into ghettos for preserving Jewishness? Please do, I am listening.

Thank our oppressors? I'd be crazy to do that. They did not keep us together. G-d did, and it is Him I thank for keeping us together through these times and for making us thrive in our own homeland right now.

[DavidB.]

I never said that Europeans do not do this because of their personal interest. But they understand, that their personal interest requires agreement and limitations. Their notion of self-interest is based on the understanding that it is very hard to prevent those sorts of conflagrations that nearly destroyed Europe in the first half of the 20th century.

You are talking about some European politicians. I am talking about ordinary Europeans when I say the situation for Jews hasn't changed as much as one would hope.
 
As for:

You want a list of Jews who would object?

and

Jewishness, like any other identity, is a matter of self-identification.  I choose my definition

This is obviously another difference between us: I am an essentialist. I think what Judaism is (as opposed to what Judaism is for me) is not a matter of self-identification, just like I think what Zionism is (as opposed to what Zionism is for me) is not a matter of self-identification. Obviously some Jews have different, non-essentialist understandings of these concepts, but who cares?

Anyway, you're back to cherry picking I see. That's a game I'm not willing to play with you.

[DavidB.]

Do you believe Palestinian identity is - as per your interpretation of Zionism - essentialist, or a made up community, DavidB?

It's not relevant whether Palestinian identity is "essentialist" or made up. I'd say it's "made up", like almost all national identities, but it really does not matter: just as the Dutch should be able to live in the Netherlands regardless of whether Dutch national identity is "made up", so should Palestinians be able to live in Israel. Zionism isn't a zero-sum game, as, by the way, many early modern Zionists actually understood, and Jews' eternal bond with the Land of Israel can exist in combination with a large non-Jewish presence in the Land. Peaceful coexistence is possible.

[DavidB.]

Noted antisemitic Christian Ernest going off on a tangent on why he likes his Jews dependent, oppressed, and in diaspora. Top kek. Love the goysplaining!

[DavidB.]

You may not know, but Ernest has quite the posting record on Jewish and Israeli issues, e.g. by calling the creation of Israel a mistake, so I am not at all inclined to give him the benefit on this subject, like, ever. I do not discuss such issues with him anymore.

I do not think you know how often I, someone from the internet you don't know, go to Israel, but my visits are not merely "occassional". Regardless, it is exactly because I do not live in Israel that I understand the value of the existence of a Jewish state, and I know my future lies there. The notion that my people should do without a state in our own land is not only insulting, it is colonialist: it assumes Europeans (should) have the authority to tell Jews where and where not to live. I do not want to commit the Justin Trudeau fallacy, but fortunately those days are over.

I did not really intend to expound on my views on "the solution" once again, since I am rather tired of discussing this subject in general, but as mentioned elsewhere on this forum I support a consociational one-state solution, with a state governed on a non-territorial, communal basis, and with autonomy for both national communities on nearly all issues.