Israel and Palestine

[ag]

I am afraid, increasingly, it is too late. And, in any case, it is not the US that can do it. At least, not through active diplomatic action.

[ag]

I have arrived. Waiting for the haters to enter the arena.

I have entered. So?

[ag]

This thread is a Bad Idea guys...

Only because it is boring. Nobody cares anymore.

[ag]

I have arrived. Waiting for the haters to enter the arena.

I have entered. So?

we need like a moderator or something #israelipallydebate2016

I do not speak Twittish.

[ag]

I still think it will go down like this: The next Prime Minister or the Prime Minister after next will be some right-wing expansionist who will annex the West Bank wholesale. Palestinians there will either be immediately made citizens and given the right to vote, or else there will be a boycott from the EU that causes the next government to give them citizenship and voting rights. In the first election after that, the Arab parties and the left team up, Israel becomes a secular nation, changes their flag and national anthem and maybe even their name. The border with Gaza will also be open, shortly after that, the Arab led government will vote to simply absorb Gaza. More than 50% of Israeli Jews will immigrate to the United States.

There is a basic flaw in this timeline. Good Israeli Zionist left would be as opposed to this, as the right. The reason these people are for the two-state solution is precisely that they do not want the one state (and, unlike the right, are not willing to govern a disenfranchised minority as unwilling subjects). Jewish Israel is as imperative for them, as it is for the right. The few exceptions are already in the Hadash. Even among Meretz voters/activists it would be very much a minority stance to support decommunalization of the state.

So, if the WBankers were to be given citizenship, this would be followed by a lengthy period of communal Jewish governments, with Grand Zionist coalitions being a temporary norm and Arabs forming the main opposition. In a way, Israeli politics would become similar to that in the Baltic states: coalition governments, whose composition would never change with "unacceptable" opposition, which, in turn, would uncontestedly dominate mayoralties in the minority areas. This may, eventually, break down, but it would take, at least, something like 40 years. A couple of generations would have to pass, bible-style.

In fact, I strongly suspect this is what will happen, eventually (unless a major Israeli military defeat interferes). It will be a one-state solution. West Bank will be annexed (Gaza will either become independent or Egyptian), the local population will be partially (though not very successfully) pushed out (possibly, in a few cases, through border adjustments with Jordan), the rest will be given citizenship and a communal semi-democracy will be established nationwide, with elections regular, but highly unexciting. The grand compact of the Jewish parties will be permanently in power, the opposition coalition would be heavily Arab-dominated. This situation will last for a long, long time, long enough so that I will not be around to see what happens later.

[ag]

as soon as tensions with Israel ease

I.e., at least 40+ years after the WB annexation.

A generation of Jewish Israelis would have to die out first.

[ag]

With regards to the Israeli left being too pro-2 state, I've had this discussion before on here. I just don't believe it. Certainly many young activists on the left are open to a single, non-Jewish state. Even among the establishment politicians of the centre-left, I think many have secretly made peace with the idea. Publicly they are very strong for 2 states though because they are worried about being painted as traitors or unpatriotic. It's simply overcompensation. The same reason they call their party "Zionist Union". It reminds me of how American Democrats backed the Iraq War and opposed gay marriage to prove they weren't dangerous radicals but as soon as the political winds become more favorable, they revealed their real positions.

With regards to Gaza, I'm even more sure you are wrong there. Egypt will not take it. It might become independent for an interim period but as soon as tensions with Israel ease (which is likely if West Bank Arabs are given citizenship), immigration and cross border trade will dramatically increase. Israel and Gaza will become economically entwined in such a way that unification will become inevitable (especially if the Israeli Arabs continually campaign for it).

As an Israeli center-leftist who knows many like me, I have to disagree. The left will never support a unified state with two official nationalities (Jewish and Palestinian) because it would mean the complete destruction of the zionist dream. I firmly believe that the only way for zionism and Israel to survive is a two-state solution, and I want to believe that Israelis and Palestinians will slowly realize it too. The survival of Israel as a Democratic, Jewish state is vital for all Jews worldwide.

I have to agree with you on much of this - except, of course, for the last sentence. As a Jew, I believe we all would have been better off if Israel/Palestine were simply a democratic state without any oficial Jewishness beyond the one imposed by its population composition.

But, otherwise, of course, I see exactly where you are coming from. What many people here forget is that most of Israeli left is Zionist left. And Zionism has a meaning. Now, not being a Zionist I can personally agree that - for me - a single non-sectarian state would be preferable. But I also do know that no Zionist would accept that. Our non-Jewish friends here simply do not have the sense where all of this is originating and how strong it is.

[ag]

A single unified state wouldn't have two official nationalities. Very few states have "official nationalities" at all. They are just the states of the people who live there.

It seems natural to you (or to me) - but it is earthshattering to pretty much all Zionist Israelis, left or Right. It is like saying that a single unified religion would not have two gods - it would simply have no gods. Zionism is stuck in the late 19th century, with all its romantic nationalist shibboleths.

[ag]

Well, you're probably right about what would be best, but it's probably a utopian vision. The bitterness between Israelis and Palestinians is imply too big unfourtunately, so we need a "divorce". And idk if it's an old-fashioned idea of nationalism, but I do still believe that the Jews need a state where they're the main nationality. I'm an atheist, and certainly don't believe all this talk I often hear of the Jews being special in any way, but as a people that managed to stay fairly unified despite being spread all over the world (funnily enough, now that we have a state this unification is threatened), I think that they have to right to a sovereign state that will keep their interests. At least until the idea of nationalism stops being so prominent all over the world- which will be a very happy day, imo.

I know where you are coming from. The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world. I do not need your state any more than I need Papua New Guinea. As for the rest, it is your battle to fight.

[ag]

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world. I do not need your state any more than I need Papua New Guinea.

No deal. As a Jew, I need the existence of Israel more than I need the existence of the country of which I hold a passport (though I obviously love and value the existence of both).

You are welcome to go to Israel and become the citizen of the anti-Jewish state yourself. Just do not mix me into this.

[ag]

Again, no deal, I'm afraid...

And I am not asking for a deal from you. As you know full well, I do not even consider you Jewish.

[ag]

are you gonna throw a fit at The Atlas again? lmao

I am not the one asking for a deal

[ag]

I am not the one asking for a deal

The only thing I really want here is that you guys stop talking on behalf of the Jews around the world.

I was not talking to you. In fact, let me quote from you, just a bit up this same thread:

... I need the existence of Israel more than I need the existence of the country of which I hold a passport (though I obviously love and value the existence of both).

I think, I can reasonably conclude from this that you are not an Israeli citizen. Hence, in my book you have no more to do with Israel than with Papua New Guinea. And I was talking to an Israeli here.

[ag]

Fat Sweaty Mexican off his meds again? SAD!
Anyway threads on this topic need to not happen.

I am fat, indeed, but the weather here is pretty cool in every sense of the word, so no sweat. And, praise Tlaloc, no meds

[ag]

Atlas Israel-Palestine thread are so annoying. Maybe just create a megathread for this gobsh**te. I though this board is terrible only in the run up for a presidential election...

What makes you so annoyed here? This one has been, positively, tame, compared to what we have had in the past

[ag]

Just one illustration for why many of us, as diaspora Jews, would prefer not to be associated in any way with the state of Israel. As many of you have, probably, heard, recently there has been some bruhaha at the UNESCO over, whatever. Israel took umbrage and complained left right and center. So, our sorry excuse for a foreign secretary (who chose not to resign after the Trump visit!) now fired Mexican ambassador for "not informing" her about the issue beforehand (as if she, actually, cared). So, anyway, a good Jewish guy has now been fired for doing what he thought was in the interest of his country because Israel complained. As a Mexican Jew I cannot say I am happy

[ag]

I'm glad that ag is secure enough to not see any need for Israel. I wish my great-uncles in Reichskommissariat Ostland had been so secure.

My grandfather lost at least 13 uncles and aunts in Uman. The family of my great grandmother was wiped out in Alytus. I do not have to imagine "somewhere in Ostland" - many of those places are real to me.

A cousin of my grandma survived the Riga ghetto. He collected stamps after the war:  in his telling, a stamp was simply a necessary precaution, since gold would be confiscated at the time of the arrest, but a valuable stamp could survive undetected - yet, there would always be somebody who would know its worth and be willing to exchange it for food. He sold his collection when Latvia joined the EU in 2004 - he felt safe. And he was right. What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more. If liberal institutions collapse, we will only have postage stamps to protect us.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

[ag]

And why run?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tucholsky

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

I don't mean this as some sort of gotcha, but that is partially what Israel--Israel as such, Israel as a state concept, not the current situation in Israel, with the Likudniks--is there for in the first place.

It will never work.

And, BTW, Likudniks are not an aberration. They are what Israel is about. What has happened was pretty much inevitable from the beginning.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

I don't mean this as some sort of gotcha, but that is partially what Israel--Israel as such, Israel as a state concept, not the current situation in Israel, with the Likudniks--is there for in the first place.

It will never work.

I'm not sure I disagree, but that's no reason not to try.

It cannot work. I am not in the business of designing perpetuum mobile.

Likudniks are not an aberration. They are what Israel is about. What has happened was pretty much inevitable from the beginning.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Or one must fight. But then again, you are too fat and sweaty to fight. And fighting would not go well with your antidepressants. So yes, run while you can.
Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

If you want to fight, volunteer for NGOs working with refugees.

And, alas, I have never tried an anti-depressant. I do not even drink much anymore - a beer a month or so these days. Some of the evangelicals on this forum should pronounce me a saint, really.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

The State of Israel is the number one institution that keeps us safe everywhere in the world.

It is really quite striking how colonized ag's line of reasoning is. Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized. They held on to their identity. By contrast, in ag's ideal world, Jews would simply assimilate and cease to exist, and in the absence of that utopia we should remain at the mercy of others (MUH EU!). No independence. No self-respect. No strength. No pride. Really sad.

I definitely think that what ag is advocating is pretty abject, but I don't see the evidence for him wanting Jews to assimilate out of existence.

I have no particular preference on this last point. I have no desire to assimilate personally - in the sense that I am not going to deliberately do anything to become less Jewish or to conceal my identity. I wish my kids "a gute nakht", would sell my soul for a good gefilte fish, have a complete works of Sholom Aleykhem on my bookshelf (in Russian) and tell stories about ancestors in the shtetl (fortunately, I know quite a few). But, then, I also speak Russian at home and, for the most part, English elsewhere, eat buckweat and hamburgers, hate corn tortillas and otherwise refuse to assimilate into the Mexican society, either as a Russian or as an Anglo. That is me, and just me and has no implications even for the rest of my family. I would have no objections to my daughters marrying Chinese guys, converting to Hinduism and moving to Kenya.

To the extent that Jews survived as a distinct group for milenia they did so as the archetypal unassimilable migrant minority locked into separatist ultra-religious communities. While I have no desire to belong to such a community, I would respect the right of its members to voluntarily maintain such a lifestyle. I definitely oppose any effort on the part of the larger society to supress such communities: whatever their religion. But my opposition would not be based on any belief in intrinsic value of such communities, but on my belief in individual freedom to live the way one likes.

So, while I definitely appreciate Jewish culture (especially its gastronomic aspect of the Ashkenazic variety) and enjoy my own Jewishness, I do not really assign it any unique value among other such cultures. I mean, it is always a bit sad when interesting phenomena disappear. Karaites or Parsis, among many others, as of today are, obviously, much more in danger of disappearing, and I pretty much feel the same way about them. I definitely would support efforts to preserve their cultures: as long as these are voluntary and do not hurt anybody else.

And, of course, I am Ashkenazic, rather than Jewish. Pan-Judaism is far too abstract for me. I have no family stories about the days of King Salomon, or even those of Bar Kochbah: both are as alien to me as ramseses and alexanders.  I do feel sad about the death of the Yiddishkayt (I would leave it to the offspring of Saloniki to cry for the Ladino world). If anything, that sentiment does nothing to endear Israel to me. However, what is done, is done. Secular Yiddish world has been murdered by Hitler and its corpse has been disowned and repudiated by the Zionists.  My great grandfather's library has been thrown out before I was born. During my lifetime they will still be doing decent chopped herring - I will have enough to eat in joyful mourning. That is sufficient.

[ag]

The solution to prejudice is to eliminate prejudice, not to indulge it by engaging in ethno-separatism.

Yes, just like in order to jump higher you should get rid of gravity.

It is not the matter of prejudice (though, of course, one should, at least, avoid practicing it - subjects to norman limitations of human spirit). It is the matter of institutions that prevent murder. That is about all we can hope for.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

The State of Israel is the number one institution that keeps us safe everywhere in the world.

A baseless statement I feel free to disagree with.