The Mormonism Thread 2.0

[Zioneer]

No, you've been quite informative.

If I ever write that novel about a dystopian world where Utah becomes a theocracy that splits and winds up in a civil war due to a schism within the LDS Church, I'll be sure to give you credit.

Heh. Just don't make theocratic Utah polygamist, that's cliche at this point.

How do you/people in your church feel about McMullin's performance? I have several Mormon friends who were really dismayed and even "disillusioned" concerning their co-religionists with regard to how Utah broke hard for Trump at the last minute.

A lot of people are disillusioned; even those who voted for Trump did not have a high opinion of him. Mormon liberals in particular are quite frustrated by this result.

[Zioneer]

Something of interest; apparently Apostle D. Todd Christofferson gave the morning prayer in the United States Senate today.

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Also, any further questions?

[RI]

Something of interest; apparently Apostle D. Todd Christofferson gave the morning prayer in the United States Senate today.

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Also, any further questions?

Cool for you guys. Has that happened before?

[Zioneer]

Something of interest; apparently Apostle D. Todd Christofferson gave the morning prayer in the United States Senate today.

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Also, any further questions?

Cool for you guys. Has that happened before?

According to this article, it's only happened a few times before, though it doesn't specify when those other times happened.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It probably was because today was Reid's send off day, so he probably got the choice of guest Chaplin today.

[Zioneer]

Reviving this thread since the April portion of General Conference, our biannual meeting/conference, is coming up. This Saturday will be the Women's Session, while the first Saturday and Sunday of April will have the rest of the April sessions.

Feel free to ask me anything about General Conference.

[DC Al Fine]

Reviving this thread since the April portion of General Conference, our biannual meeting/conference, is coming up. This Saturday will be the Women's Session, while the first Saturday and Sunday of April will have the rest of the April sessions.

Feel free to ask me anything about General Conference.

Are there any major issues/topics of discussion?

[Zioneer]

Reviving this thread since the April portion of General Conference, our biannual meeting/conference, is coming up. This Saturday will be the Women's Session, while the first Saturday and Sunday of April will have the rest of the April sessions.

Feel free to ask me anything about General Conference.

Are there any major issues/topics of discussion?

Well, there used to be more contentious conferences, but much of General Conference has become a bit like religiously infused TED Talks. Inspiring, and reaffirming our doctrine, but not much that we actually "vote" on.

Generally, the topics including the doctrine of Christ (though no Trinitarianism), protecting the concept of the family, religious liberty, God's love for all and repentance, the Atonement, and etc. Some recent topics have included how to help refugees, standing up for "traditional marriage", and so forth. Many personal stories.

All of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency (who are also apostles, BTW) get at least one talk per session of General Conference, with the First Presidency getting usually 3-4 per session. The Auxiliary presidencies (the Relief Society, the Young Men and Young Women, and Primary), as well as the Presiding Bishopric get at least one speaker. After them, the Quorum of Seventies, the next highest level of leadership, usually get 5-7 speakers. Often, at least one or two speakers will say something extremely controversial.

In the Saturday Afternoon session, there's a "sustaining of church officers", where there's technically a vote on all of the church leaders. You vote to sustain or not the Church President, then the First Presidency, then Quorum of the Twelve, and the other organizations. Here's an example. Generally it's basically unanimous, and is a formality, but in recent times, there's been small groups of people who have shouted their opposition for some reason or another. Since they're like, six people, they're obviously overruled by the thousands in attendance alone, not to mention the millions of members across the globe.

There are also inevitably protests outside the Conference Center, usually having to do with a social issue. The Ordain Women's movement have a regular protest over women's ordination and their inability to attend the Priesthood Session of Conference in person (as they are women, and therefore not part of the lay priesthood). Additionally, the Church's view on LGBT issues tends to generate protest, especially recent moves by the Church to excommunicate married gay members.

And there's also the random Evangelical and ex-Mormon protestors who have signs like "Joseph Smith is the Devil" and waving around LDS temple garments (which is supremely disrespectful). They don't usually have a distinct issue, they just want to protest the LDS Church.

[Mr. Smith]

General Conference is on for anyone interested.

[DC Al Fine]

Two questions for the Mormons on the board:

1) I've been reading a lot recently that the LDS church is having difficulty retaining youth. Common factors cited include the rise of the internet, LDS's refusal to liberalize etc. However, I noticed a lot of what I had been reading in support of this was from ex-Mormon sites i.e really biased sources. Is there any truth to their claims?

2) Is there a cultural divide between Utah and non-Utah Mormons?

[Mr. Smith]

Two questions for the Mormons on the board:

1) I've been reading a lot recently that the LDS church is having difficulty retaining youth. Common factors cited include the rise of the internet, LDS's refusal to liberalize etc. However, I noticed a lot of what I had been reading in support of this was from ex-Mormon sites i.e really biased sources. Is there any truth to their claims?

2) Is there a cultural divide between Utah and non-Utah Mormons?

1. I don't know the exact numbers, but I do think some of that has to do with the high baptism rates in the first place. Lots of people, especially youth might convert in moments of troubled times and hope it turns a new leaf for 'em, that things'll be peachy because of some good feelings they had. It just doesn't always work out that way.

That and the internet has a way of leaking all sorts of unsavory aspects of everything, which can turn people off.

And then you have those who are were raised all their life in The Church, but still had an awful family life. The Church's stress on the nuclear family and doing things together is simply not going to ring well with those kinds of people.

Also, youth are kinda on a spiritual decline these days anyway.

Ultimately, I believe very much in the saying "The Church is true, the people aren't", but I think those who are younger and more idealistic might not be able to accept that.

2. Oh hell yes, look at how mild-mannered Zioneer is, now look at myself or Jimmie. One of us did something crazy enough to not be a mod, the other one curses like a sailor. You don't even need to leave Atlas to see the difference, which is saying something considering 3/4 of us are Democrats, but we're in the 10% overall that aren't Republican.

Atlas aside though, a lot of the differences have to do with the fact that Utah (and Eastern Idaho) is majority Mormon, where certain values are expected all the time, where other lifestyles don't necessarily get as much exposure.

Culturally, it kinda leads to a bit of an Enlightened North vs Moral South sort of thing.

Spiritually, the way faith is tested is going to be very very different for obvious reasons, and that itself is going to feed back into the cultural loop.

I could go even further and suggest that there is another divide between European Mormons, American ones, and Pacific Islander ones too.

I mean, at the end of the day, even with the same Church and gospel, environment does have a part to play in these things.

[Mopsus]

I could go even further and suggest that there is another divide between European Mormons, American ones, and Pacific Islander ones too.

Could you expound on this?

[Mr. Smith]

I could go even further and suggest that there is another divide between European Mormons, American ones, and Pacific Islander ones too.

Could you expound on this?

Keep in mind that the best I can do anecdotal stuff, but here goes.

I've noticed that Americans tend to be the most uptight and materialistic and comfortable with the hierarchy, Pacific Islanders tend to be a bit more relaxed but also very conservative and most open to talking about abstract stuff, and Europeans tend to be the most casual.

When there's a party going on, and it's majority Pac-Islander, it seems to be that Hawaiian Haystack is guaranteed a presence. With Americans, it's the jello-marshmallow stuff as a dessert. But both are pretty big staples most of the time anyway.

[Zioneer]

I would also add that Mormons from Provo and its immediate environs, and rural Utah Mormons are different from Mormons from Salt Lake County, especially Salt Lake City. The Provoite Mormons, so to speak, are the most theologically and politically conservative, and at least the ones I've met are survivalist types.

Similar to them in culture are Mormons from the Mormon-majority areas of Idaho.

[Mr. Smith]

I would also add that Mormons from Provo and its immediate environs, and rural Utah Mormons are different from Mormons from Salt Lake County, especially Salt Lake City. The Provoite Mormons, so to speak, are the most theologically and politically conservative, and at least the ones I've met are survivalist types.

Similar to them in culture are Mormons from the Mormon-majority areas of Idaho.

And it's Provo/the BYU area that usually defines Utah.

Kinda like how best French is in France, and then in Paris, that kinda thing.

I know lots of less active folk here that quite literally only support U of U to spite the BYU crowd.

[Zioneer]

I would also add that Mormons from Provo and its immediate environs, and rural Utah Mormons are different from Mormons from Salt Lake County, especially Salt Lake City. The Provoite Mormons, so to speak, are the most theologically and politically conservative, and at least the ones I've met are survivalist types.

Similar to them in culture are Mormons from the Mormon-majority areas of Idaho.

And it's Provo/the BYU area that usually defines Utah.

Kinda like how best French is in France, and then in Paris, that kinda thing.

I know lots of less active folk here that quite literally only support U of U to spite the BYU crowd.

Yeah, four of the apostles are former presidents of one of the BYUs, in fact.

[Zioneer]

Also, President Monson, our current church president and prophet, was hospitalized Monday, and so far remains in the hospital. http://www.sltrib.com/home/5139341-155/mormon-leader-thomas-monson-hospitalized

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[Mr. Smith]

I would also add that Mormons from Provo and its immediate environs, and rural Utah Mormons are different from Mormons from Salt Lake County, especially Salt Lake City. The Provoite Mormons, so to speak, are the most theologically and politically conservative, and at least the ones I've met are survivalist types.

Similar to them in culture are Mormons from the Mormon-majority areas of Idaho.

And it's Provo/the BYU area that usually defines Utah.

Kinda like how best French is in France, and then in Paris, that kinda thing.

I know lots of less active folk here that quite literally only support U of U to spite the BYU crowd.

Yeah, four of the apostles are former presidents of one of the BYUs, in fact.

I'm surprised how many actually had a presence at the one in Rexburg and how much Rexburg plays a part of perception of the Utah Mormon.

[Torie]

The LDS seems to spend a fortune on bricks and mortar, and had a huge campaign to build a lot more temples (all or most very fancy (and sometimes "flashy" and built using expensive materials) across the Fruited Plain over the past 20 years or so. Has there been dissent in the LDS community regarding such expenditures, and that being a Church priority?

[Zioneer]

The LDS seems to spend a fortune on bricks and mortar, and had a huge campaign to build a lot more temples (all or most very fancy (and sometimes "flashy" and built using expensive materials) across the Fruited Plain over the past 20 years or so. Has there been dissent in the LDS community regarding such expenditures, and that being a Church priority?

Yes, some Mormons, especially liberal ones like myself, are a little frustrated with the obvious expenditure on temples at the expense of other programs and funds. However, most Mormons don't consider the expenditure, or think it's well worth it. They consider it the least we could do for God, basically. Especially since we do most of our saving ordinances in temples.

In our defense however, we did have a period of time in which we focused on "small" temples, which were cheaper and less flashy than some of our bigger temples. That was church president Gordon B Hinckley's specialty, which we appear to have moved away from in recent years. We also had a plan in the 1960s for a temple-ship that would sail around Asia and Oceania, providing temple services to members across the Pacific, but that plan was scrapped for various reasons.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

We also had a plan in the 1960s for a temple-ship that would sail around Asia and Oceania, providing temple services to members across the Pacific, but that plan was scrapped for various reasons.

Why would a church that some accuse of being a cult want to avoid having a sea organization? 😝

[Lincoln Republican]

So right now I'd like to talk about the highest leadership in the LDS Church: The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and the way LDS presidential succession works.

1) Russell M Nelson: Apostle since 1984, Nelson was formerly a heart doctor, and has been present at many firsts in heart surgery. He even performed heart surgery on an apostle that later became church president. Nelson is currently 92 years old, and appears to be in relatively good shape for that age. If he outlives Monson (likely), he will become the next church president. He's had a few socially conservative talks, but his focus is usually on healing and learning.

2) Dallin H Oaks: Apostle since 1984, Utah Supreme Court Judge from 1980 to 1984, and President of BYU from 1971 to 1980. Oaks is probably one of the more conservative apostles, and often has strong "culture warrior" talks focusing on religious liberty and the right of the church to speak its own opinion. Mormon liberals don't tend to like him. He is 84 years old and in good health. He tends to give his sermons like a lawyer laying out a case. Despite being ordained at the same time as Nelson, Oaks is younger than Nelson, so is junior to him.

Excellent recap of the Church leadership.

But to my understanding and study, age has nothing to do with seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, but everything to do with date and time of ordination to the Quorum.

So the reason Nelson is senior to Oaks in the quorum is because Nelson was ordained to the quorum in April 1984 and Oaks was ordained to the quorum in May 1984.  Therefore, due to the fact that Nelson was ordained before Oaks, Nelson is senior to Oaks in the quorum.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Nelson is older than Oaks, but simply because Nelson was ordained before Oaks.

If two or more new Apostles are ordained on the same day, they would take their places in seniority in the quorum in the order in which they were ordained.
 

 

[Zioneer]

So right now I'd like to talk about the highest leadership in the LDS Church: The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and the way LDS presidential succession works.

1) Russell M Nelson: Apostle since 1984, Nelson was formerly a heart doctor, and has been present at many firsts in heart surgery. He even performed heart surgery on an apostle that later became church president. Nelson is currently 92 years old, and appears to be in relatively good shape for that age. If he outlives Monson (likely), he will become the next church president. He's had a few socially conservative talks, but his focus is usually on healing and learning.

2) Dallin H Oaks: Apostle since 1984, Utah Supreme Court Judge from 1980 to 1984, and President of BYU from 1971 to 1980. Oaks is probably one of the more conservative apostles, and often has strong "culture warrior" talks focusing on religious liberty and the right of the church to speak its own opinion. Mormon liberals don't tend to like him. He is 84 years old and in good health. He tends to give his sermons like a lawyer laying out a case. Despite being ordained at the same time as Nelson, Oaks is younger than Nelson, so is junior to him.

Excellent recap of the Church leadership.

But to my understanding and study, age has nothing to do with seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, but everything to do with date and time of ordination to the Quorum.

So the reason Nelson is senior to Oaks in the quorum is because Nelson was ordained to the quorum in April 1984 and Oaks was ordained to the quorum in May 1984.  Therefore, due to the fact that Nelson was ordained before Oaks, Nelson is senior to Oaks in the quorum.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Nelson is older than Oaks, but simply because Nelson was ordained before Oaks.

If two or more new Apostles are ordained on the same day, they would take their places in seniority in the quorum in the order in which they were ordained.
 

 

Correct, I was mistaken, though I believe the original Joseph Smith-era rules had to do with age, so I might have mistakenly thought they were still institutional rules.

[DC Al Fine]

Two more questions:

1) Could someone give or point me to a reasonably fair summary of the problems the LDS church is facing, how they are coping with them etc? Most of the Mormon produced stuff I could find was kind of happy go lucky, and the exMormon websites are hardcore hacks in the other direction.

2) There are Mormon communities in Europe that are fairly old, correct? Do they have any particular distinctive? Did certain demographics tend to join say, the Swedish or French Mormons back in the day?

[Mr. Smith]

Two more questions:

1) Could someone give or point me to a reasonably fair summary of the problems the LDS church is facing, how they are coping with them etc? Most of the Mormon produced stuff I could find was kind of happy go lucky, and the exMormon websites are hardcore hacks in the other direction.

2) There are Mormon communities in Europe that are fairly old, correct? Do they have any particular distinctive? Did certain demographics tend to join say, the Swedish or French Mormons back in the day?

1. Why do you assume happy-go-lucky doesn't say much? It's very much ingrained in culture to look at things optimistically and rosily. But that doesn't mean things aren't gonna be acknowledged. Also, much of the "issues" and problems do have some dependency on the area. For example, for all the talk about gay rights issues and homophobia, you wouldn't think such a thing was a thing in my neck of the woods. On the other hand, inactivity and substance issues among new converts are quite rampant. This is because, hey waita second, we don't live in vacuum. Also local bishops and Stake Presidents aren't exactly powerless themselves

2. There are quite a lot of fairly old communities for sure, considering Europe was one of the first places outside the U.S. where missionaries went to, this shouldn't be surprising. While I can't say for sure with any hard data what class would be most likely to join, I'd imagine those in a rut of some kind would be most likely.

That said, most of those communities aren't that big in part because of the encouragement to go to Utah and gather around there [the whole Zion thing, but eventually as the church grew and it became less and less feasible, they pretty much said "No worries, Zion's right where you are, if you make it so"] . I imagine then, that it was remnants who lacked the money to pay the expenses to board vessels and get those handcarts that made up the communities.

I am, in fact, descended from Swedes. But they migrated relatively early and joined all those other Larsens and Sorensons and Andersons and Osmundsons to eventually make up a disproportionate amount of surnames in Utah [seriously, I bet only Minnesota has more Scandinavian names in it at this point].