The Mormonism Thread 2.0
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 05:54:35 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: World politics is up Schmitt creek)
  The Mormonism Thread 2.0
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Author Topic: The Mormonism Thread 2.0  (Read 12826 times)
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: September 28, 2016, 11:33:20 PM »

So I started a thread about Mormonism a couple years back, but it's been a while and I don't really want to bother bringing the old thread back. So I'm reviving it as this thread, especially since the major biannual LDS General Conference is happening on Saturday and Sunday (technically part of it already happened this last Saturday, but eh). This is probably the biggest event in Mormonism that happens every six months.

So, go ahead and ask me anything about Mormonism. I can usually answer it, and there's a couple of other Mormons floating around the forum that might spot this thread and can answer something if I can't.
Logged
PresidentSamTilden
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 507


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 06:43:38 PM »

What political issues are important in the mormon community?
Logged
DC Al Fine
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,085
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 07:04:23 PM »

Two questions:

1) What does a typical Mormon liturgy look like for a normal Sunday service? Does it vary much between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the fringier groups?

2) Related, to SamTilden's question, what are the major theological debates in the main LDS denomination.
Logged
Mr. Smith
MormDem
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 33,072
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 07:47:08 PM »

What political issues are important in the mormon community?

 - Gay marriage, and that one ain't goin' away anytime soon. Honestly just about anything LGBTAQ is gonna be turn the community into a bunch o' deer-in-the-headlights. LGBT for one reason, AQ for another.

  - Weed/Marijuana , there's one side that's still ahead that takes the "it's bad for you so ban it" route, and then there's the anti-prohibitionist route (I personally favor the latter category).

  - There's probably a good chunk that think exactly like SunriseAroundTheWorld since there's a bit of Zionist streak going on [No idea if the OP chose that name with some irony or not, but it's rather reflective]


Two questions:

1) What does a typical Mormon liturgy look like for a normal Sunday service? Does it vary much between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the fringier groups?

2) Related, to SamTilden's question, what are the major theological debates in the main LDS denomination.

A normal service looks like:

A: 1 hour of what is called Sacrament Meeting, which is pretty much our mass.

- Albeit with 8 people to do the Communion, since the figurative body and blood of Christ goes to the people rather than forcing the people up.

- Instead of a bunch of "Readings" from -Insert Bible Book Here- and a sermon or two, you get a bunch of individual speakers on one concrete gospel related topic...unless it's Fast Sunday, then you got a bunch 'o people telling things as they see it, most of them go down to inelegant blubbering.


B

1. Sunday School
2. Primary (Sunday School Jr)
3. Nursery

C: A Bunch o' meetings segregated by Age and Gender

1. Elder's Quorum (that's me)
2. High Priests (the codgery dudes)
3. Relief Society (women)
4. Young Men
5. Young Women

Everything comes out to about 3 hours [but if you got some talkative, smarta^& teachin' or disruptive people at any point it could go longer]


No idea how much splinter groups keep to the formula.

...And that's all I have time for.
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2016, 01:38:45 PM »

What political issues are important in the mormon community?

In addition to Ralleytand/MormonDem's comments, abortion is a fairly important issue, though not overriding over other issues. Religious Liberty has gotten big recently among American Mormons and the mostly American leaders of the church, especially in the context of being able to express opposition to same-sex marriage. However, in terms of defending other minority religions, we use religious liberty and our own history to justify defending them.

Being really in favor of Israel is definitely a thing, though unlike some evangelicals, Mormons don't have any animus against Palestinians in particular, they just like Jews and therefore Jewish Israelis more. In fact, there is a BYU Jerusalem Center that's rather fair to all sides, that mainly teaches history, archaeology, and the like. The ultra-Orthodox were opposed to it at first since they thought the Mormons would use it to convert Jews, but we promised not to do conversions in Israel, and we've tried our best to hold to our end of the deal.

As for my username, I took it more for the purposes of a pun on "Zion" (as in, the Mormon definition), and "Pioneer", hence, "Zioneer".

Oh, and in Utah, opposition to alcohol is a thing the LDS Church does. If you've ever heard of the "Zion Curtain", it's basically a barrier legally mandated in front of drinks being served, so that kids don't see it. It's exactly as silly as it sounds.

Two questions:

1) What does a typical Mormon liturgy look like for a normal Sunday service? Does it vary much between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the fringier groups?

2) Related, to SamTilden's question, what are the major theological debates in the main LDS denomination.

1)

A

-What Ralleytand/Mormon Dem said, but also there's a bit of "charismatic" Christianity dragged in, in that you're encouraged to speak from the heart, premonitions are often mentioned in these laymen sermons, and crying is not considered uncouth or inappropriate. In fact, a man getting all teary is considered masculine, in a way. Hence why Glenn Beck is considered a model Mormon in some respects during his show. He cries when feeling something inspirational or terrifying, and speaks emotionally of his experiences with faith and spirituality. That's considered okay during these speeches.

B

1. Sunday School: In Sunday School you have a (again, layman) teacher talking about a gospel principle, encouraging (limited) discussion of the principle, and affirmations of the righteousness of said principle. Opposed discussion is not really encouraged.
2. Primary: Basically Sunday School for 5-12 year olds, it's a simplified version of Sunday School, and often there's a lot of recounting of Book of Mormon stories and practice for Primary "concerts" during Sacrament Meeting in between speakers.
3. Nursery: exactly what it sounds like.

C.
1. Elder's Quorum: I am also in Elder's Quorum, and it's similar to Sunday School, but more focused on priesthood matters.
2. High Priests: Old codgers, stereotyped as either falling asleep easily, or getting way too into heated debates about an esoteric bit of Mormon theology/history.
3. Relief Society: All about being the best mothers and wives you can be, single women can sometimes feel excluded.
4. Young Men: Teaching the young men to be priesthood leaders and trying to lead them into having a righteous life, and so forth.
5. Young Women: Preparing to be a wife and mother. Stereotyped as not having very deep discussions about anything.

All of this combined comes out to be about 3 hours to 3 hours 30 minutes, depending on how long things drag on.

2) As we're a very centralized church who believes that the prophet/church president literally has revelation from God, there's not a lot of serious theological debate at the layman level. Whatever the First Presidency (church president and his counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the highest authority in the church) say is doctrine, is doctrine. At least that's how it officially goes.

Unofficially, there's debates about women's role in the church, especially whether women should be ordained to the (layman) priesthood or not, a change advocated by the group Ordain Women. Related to this are the lingering questions about polygamy; while the mainline church has banned it and has excommunicated anyone who tries to bring it back, there's still the lingering specter of it in our history.

Additionally, the questions about the church's pre-1978 racial attitudes are often discussed unofficially, and lingering attitudes from that era sometimes crop up.

The biggest differences between the mainline church and the splinter groups are that the splinter groups are almost all very fervent believers in polygamy, are extremely racist, and center all power within a couple of families; the Fundamentalist LDS or FLDS with the Jeffs family are a key example of this.

However, then you've got the RLDS/Community of Christ, who started out opposed to polygamy and what they saw as some of Joseph Smith's excesses. They had an almost monarchical church presidency restricted to members of the Smith family, but they've abandoned that in recent years, and basically become a mainline liberal Protestant church. There was a relatively recent (up until 2012, I think) Congressman from Iowa who was RLDS. Leonard Boswell or something like that.

Any further questions?
Logged
Mopsus
MOPolitico
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.71, S: -1.65

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2016, 04:49:21 PM »

How do Mormons feel about Freemasonry?
Logged
Mr. Smith
MormDem
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 33,072
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2016, 12:11:07 AM »

Considering quite a few of the early GA's were Masons themselves...
Logged
DC Al Fine
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,085
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2016, 07:08:51 AM »

-What Ralleytand/Mormon Dem said, but also there's a bit of "charismatic" Christianity dragged in, in that you're encouraged to speak from the heart, premonitions are often mentioned in these laymen sermons, and crying is not considered uncouth or inappropriate. In fact, a man getting all teary is considered masculine, in a way. Hence why Glenn Beck is considered a model Mormon in some respects during his show. He cries when feeling something inspirational or terrifying, and speaks emotionally of his experiences with faith and spirituality. That's considered okay during these speeches.

I think this was alluded earlier but I'd like to confirm it. When I was asking about liturgy, I meant during the actual service/sacrament/meeting. From what it sounds like, Mormon sacarement meetings are very low church (e.g. no set prayers) compared to mainstream Christianity, or even Evangelicalism. Is that correct?
Logged
diptheriadan
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,371


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2016, 01:34:34 PM »

How do y'all worship?
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2016, 04:41:48 PM »

General Conference is a bit boring at the moment (and also my feed isn't working very well), so I'll answer these questions instead.

-What Ralleytand/Mormon Dem said, but also there's a bit of "charismatic" Christianity dragged in, in that you're encouraged to speak from the heart, premonitions are often mentioned in these laymen sermons, and crying is not considered uncouth or inappropriate. In fact, a man getting all teary is considered masculine, in a way. Hence why Glenn Beck is considered a model Mormon in some respects during his show. He cries when feeling something inspirational or terrifying, and speaks emotionally of his experiences with faith and spirituality. That's considered okay during these speeches.

I think this was alluded earlier but I'd like to confirm it. When I was asking about liturgy, I meant during the actual service/sacrament/meeting. From what it sounds like, Mormon sacarement meetings are very low church (e.g. no set prayers) compared to mainstream Christianity, or even Evangelicalism. Is that correct?

Oh, there's a set prayer for the actual sacrament/communion, but the opening and closing prayers of the meeting are not set, and are based on the inspiration of the random member asked to give a prayer.

There's also no gold or incense or anything like that, just plastic/metal trays, plastic water cups, bread from whoever was asked to supply the bread, and that's about it. I guess if that's low church, we're low church, then.

Usually at the beginning of the meeting, after the opening prayer but before Sacrament, the bishop or one of his counselors talk about organizational concerns, like who is ordained to a calling, and who is released from a calling. Someone could be called to be the pianist for the congregation for a few years, released, then called to be in charge of Sunday School classes for the next few years, for example.

After the organizational stuff, Sacrament happens. The set sacrament prayer is given by 16-18 year old "priests" then 12-14 year old "deacons" go through the chapel area and give the congregation the bread and water. After all of the congregation has been given the sacrament and all trays and items have been stored away, the rest of Sacrament meeting happens, in which laymen members of the congregation who have been asked to give a sermon give their sermons, usually prepared by them personally, but with a theme they should cover. For example, once I was asked to give a sermon (a "talk" in LDS-speak) about the importance of baptism. I was given a three week heads up, and I wrote down notes, but also prayed about what I should say, and then three weeks later, I gave it in sacrament meeting after the sacrament was given.

Do you mean how we pray? Privately, we pray on our knees or sitting, if possible, with our arms crossed, eyes closed, head bent down. Sometimes we clasp our own hands if not able to cross our arms. We do not hold hands in prayer like other churches (like my grandmother's Nazrene Church) do. In public, usually there's someone standing up and giving a prayer as I have described, but otherwise, no difference.

The prayer itself usually begins with "Dear Heavenly Father", "Our Father in Heaven", or something similar, and we ask for blessings, give thanks for what we have, ask specifics or in general terms, etc. Usually, we address God/Heavenly Father in "thee", "thine", and "thou" terms, though not always. We end the prayer with "in the name of Jesus Christ" or "In Jesus's name", and then always "Amen".


Also regarding Masonry, modern Mormons don't like it, but a bunch of early church leaders ("General Authorities" is what Ralleytand means by "GAs") were Freemasons. We don't really think about it much now, though the anti-Mormon crowd likes to claim that Joseph Smith's church was based on Masonry.
Logged
Mopsus
MOPolitico
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.71, S: -1.65

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2016, 05:12:46 PM »

What do you think of the September Six? Do you think that there's any chance that Mormonism will recognize its radical origins, or do you see it moving closer and closer to mainstream Protestantism?
Logged
Mr. Smith
MormDem
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 33,072
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2016, 11:22:36 PM »

General Conference is a bit boring at the moment (and also my feed isn't working very well), so I'll answer these questions instead.

-What Ralleytand/Mormon Dem said, but also there's a bit of "charismatic" Christianity dragged in, in that you're encouraged to speak from the heart, premonitions are often mentioned in these laymen sermons, and crying is not considered uncouth or inappropriate. In fact, a man getting all teary is considered masculine, in a way. Hence why Glenn Beck is considered a model Mormon in some respects during his show. He cries when feeling something inspirational or terrifying, and speaks emotionally of his experiences with faith and spirituality. That's considered okay during these speeches.

I think this was alluded earlier but I'd like to confirm it. When I was asking about liturgy, I meant during the actual service/sacrament/meeting. From what it sounds like, Mormon sacarement meetings are very low church (e.g. no set prayers) compared to mainstream Christianity, or even Evangelicalism. Is that correct?

Oh, there's a set prayer for the actual sacrament/communion, but the opening and closing prayers of the meeting are not set, and are based on the inspiration of the random member asked to give a prayer.

There's also no gold or incense or anything like that, just plastic/metal trays, plastic water cups, bread from whoever was asked to supply the bread, and that's about it. I guess if that's low church, we're low church, then.

Usually at the beginning of the meeting, after the opening prayer but before Sacrament, the bishop or one of his counselors talk about organizational concerns, like who is ordained to a calling, and who is released from a calling. Someone could be called to be the pianist for the congregation for a few years, released, then called to be in charge of Sunday School classes for the next few years, for example.

After the organizational stuff, Sacrament happens. The set sacrament prayer is given by 16-18 year old "priests" then 12-14 year old "deacons" go through the chapel area and give the congregation the bread and water. After all of the congregation has been given the sacrament and all trays and items have been stored away, the rest of Sacrament meeting happens, in which laymen members of the congregation who have been asked to give a sermon give their sermons, usually prepared by them personally, but with a theme they should cover. For example, once I was asked to give a sermon (a "talk" in LDS-speak) about the importance of baptism. I was given a three week heads up, and I wrote down notes, but also prayed about what I should say, and then three weeks later, I gave it in sacrament meeting after the sacrament was given.

Do you mean how we pray? Privately, we pray on our knees or sitting, if possible, with our arms crossed, eyes closed, head bent down. Sometimes we clasp our own hands if not able to cross our arms. We do not hold hands in prayer like other churches (like my grandmother's Nazrene Church) do. In public, usually there's someone standing up and giving a prayer as I have described, but otherwise, no difference.

The prayer itself usually begins with "Dear Heavenly Father", "Our Father in Heaven", or something similar, and we ask for blessings, give thanks for what we have, ask specifics or in general terms, etc. Usually, we address God/Heavenly Father in "thee", "thine", and "thou" terms, though not always. We end the prayer with "in the name of Jesus Christ" or "In Jesus's name", and then always "Amen".

Also regarding Masonry, modern Mormons don't like it, but a bunch of early church leaders ("General Authorities" is what Ralleytand means by "GAs") were Freemasons. We don't really think about it much now, though the anti-Mormon crowd likes to claim that Joseph Smith's church was based on Masonry.

1. This is of course referring to the stereotypical "family wards" (or general congregation in layman's terms), there are also congregations meant specifically for Twenty/Thirty-something singles, in which case Elders (18-whenever one becomes a High Priest) have to all that stuff.

2. Never heard of such issues with Masonry.
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 01:57:21 PM »

I realize I haven't really contributed to this thread for almost a full month, so does anyone have further questions?
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,835


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 02:37:57 PM »

I realize I haven't really contributed to this thread for almost a full month, so does anyone have further questions?

More cultural. Your thoughts on this? http://www.advocate.com/music/2016/10/21/tyler-glenn-bares-his-mormon-soul-excommunication

In particular his cathartic 'revealing' of Mormon ritual. I know that can be a sensitive spot. I briefly dated a former Mormon (he had two kids and a supportive ex wife) and was quite open about talking about what he felt were the absurdities of everything.
Logged
Small L
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 331
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2016, 03:25:16 AM »

Is it true that Mormons believe the Father and the Son each have their own physical bodies? If so, does the Holy Spirit have one too?
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2016, 11:35:38 PM »

I realize I haven't really contributed to this thread for almost a full month, so does anyone have further questions?

More cultural. Your thoughts on this? http://www.advocate.com/music/2016/10/21/tyler-glenn-bares-his-mormon-soul-excommunication

In particular his cathartic 'revealing' of Mormon ritual. I know that can be a sensitive spot. I briefly dated a former Mormon (he had two kids and a supportive ex wife) and was quite open about talking about what he felt were the absurdities of everything.

I can understand his anger, and I feel anger towards the misguided policy from last year as well. I don't really "get" his music video. I mean, I didn't even really notice that he "revealed" temple ritual. All his first video makes me feel is, for lack of a better word, like I'm  tripping on something. The second one is even trippier. I don't like the style of music anyway, so I watch with the sound off, though I did watch the first one with the sound on the first time.

I was never a fan of the Neon Trees, so I have no further emotions about this.
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2016, 11:41:34 PM »

Is it true that Mormons believe the Father and the Son each have their own physical bodies? If so, does the Holy Spirit have one too?
'

We do believe that the Father and the Son each have their own physical bodies. We further believe that at some point the Father went through essentially the same situation an eternity ago, and was the Savior at some point as well.

The Holy Spirit does not have a body, so that it can more effectively comfort and help everyone at once. It may get a body after the Second Coming, we're not totally sure on that piece of theology. Some Mormon feminists speculate that our Mother in Heaven/Heavenly Mother is the Holy Spirit, which doesn't make sense because one of the few things we definitely know about Heavenly Mother is that she also has a physical body, like the Father.
Logged
The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,174
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2016, 01:30:15 PM »

Two questions.

One, and this is probably stupid - exactly how far does the prohibition on caffein and alcohol go?  What is the Church's official stance on taking any chemical that's extracted from a plant?

Two is more political and relates to the first question: why doesn't Utah have a single dry county?
Logged
The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,174
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2016, 01:40:23 PM »

one other thing

Do you mean how we pray? Privately, we pray on our knees or sitting, if possible, with our arms crossed, eyes closed, head bent down. Sometimes we clasp our own hands if not able to cross our arms. We do not hold hands in prayer like other churches (like my grandmother's Nazrene Church) do. In public, usually there's someone standing up and giving a prayer as I have described, but otherwise, no difference.

The prayer itself usually begins with "Dear Heavenly Father", "Our Father in Heaven", or something similar, and we ask for blessings, give thanks for what we have, ask specifics or in general terms, etc. Usually, we address God/Heavenly Father in "thee", "thine", and "thou" terms, though not always. We end the prayer with "in the name of Jesus Christ" or "In Jesus's name", and then always "Amen".

Do Mormons pray only to the Father, or can they pray to the Son and/or others to 'intermediate' on their behalf?
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2016, 05:02:14 PM »

Two questions.

One, and this is probably stupid - exactly how far does the prohibition on caffein and alcohol go?  What is the Church's official stance on taking any chemical that's extracted from a plant?

Two is more political and relates to the first question: why doesn't Utah have a single dry county?

The prohibition on caffeine and alcohol actually varies based on the prevailing feeling among Mormons. It wasn't strictly enforced in the early years; Brigham advised the early Utah Mormons to have coffee and alcohol as long as they made it instead of buying it from non-Mormons, for example. Porter Rockwell owned a distillery.

It wasn't until the end of polygamy that it began being strictly enforced, partially because we felt that a stricter interpretation was more accurate, but also because it was a way to differentiate ourselves from other churches without the socially and historically embarrassing polygamy. Over time we've gotten stricter and stricter with this belief, the Word of Wisdom. For a while, people weren't even sure if we should drink green tea or Coke/Pepsi. Some of the most extreme mainline Mormons even prohibited hot chocolate and regular soda among their own families.

But as I said, it kind of varies; LDS prophet David O. McKay famously ate a rum cake in the 1960s, saying that it wasn't enough to really do anything to you, so it was fine. And Mormons around that time liked to have lots of Postum.

Currently, the strictest prohibition is on alcohol and tobacco/smoking. Both are strictly prohibited, and frowned upon more than any of the other substances we shouldn't have. If you have coffee or tea, it's often ignored and winked upon. If you have a medical condition like my mom, and need to have a particular kind of black tea, then its fine, just don't go shouting about it to higher authorities in the church.

Recreational marijuana is strictly prohibited, and the Church frowned upon most uses of medical marijuana upon until this last year, when after weeks of discussion in the Legislature (and obviously a lot at Church headquarters), the Church supported a limited medical marijuana bill, which narrowly failed due to lack of time.

As for dry counties, no idea. Judging by the "Zion Curtain" that puts a lot of regulations on alcohol but doesn't prohibit it, it's probably easier to make it difficult for people to have too much alcohol, than it is to prohibit it altogether and watch as the black market takes over.
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2016, 05:04:34 PM »

one other thing

Do you mean how we pray? Privately, we pray on our knees or sitting, if possible, with our arms crossed, eyes closed, head bent down. Sometimes we clasp our own hands if not able to cross our arms. We do not hold hands in prayer like other churches (like my grandmother's Nazrene Church) do. In public, usually there's someone standing up and giving a prayer as I have described, but otherwise, no difference.

The prayer itself usually begins with "Dear Heavenly Father", "Our Father in Heaven", or something similar, and we ask for blessings, give thanks for what we have, ask specifics or in general terms, etc. Usually, we address God/Heavenly Father in "thee", "thine", and "thou" terms, though not always. We end the prayer with "in the name of Jesus Christ" or "In Jesus's name", and then always "Amen".

Do Mormons pray only to the Father, or can they pray to the Son and/or others to 'intermediate' on their behalf?

Just the Father, though some radical Mormon feminists also pray to Heavenly Mother as well. The LDS Church itself is against praying to Heavenly Mother. We also don't have intermediaries; we don't ask Saints or the Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf.
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2016, 06:57:53 PM »

So right now I'd like to talk about the highest leadership in the LDS Church: The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and the way LDS presidential succession works.

The First Presidency is the highest governing body of the Church, and consists of the President of the Church (often known as "the prophet", as that is another of his titles), and two or more counselors ordained and called to assist him in his duties. These duties include overseeing the Church, making sure all of the doctrines are correct, receiving divine revelation for the entire church (only the prophet can do that, but his counselors assist in carrying it out), and overseeing the use of tithing funds. The First Presidency currently consists of three members:

1) Thomas S Monson:  Sixteenth and current president of the Church since 2008 and apostle since 1963, Monson has been in full-time church service since he was 33. He's currently 89 years old and is a former publisher and Naval Reserve veteran. He has been suffering from illness in recent years, starting about 2011. Some think he has dementia, while many church members point out that he's extremely old and probably just physically frail. In any case, it’s obvious to everyone that he's in extremely poor health and will not live many more years. Also of note: Monson is the last remaining apostle from before the lifting of the racial priesthood ban in 1978.

2) Henry B Eyring: First Counselor in the First Presidency since 2008, Second Counselor since 2007, and apostle since 1995. Eyring has also been a Commissioner of Church Education, President of Ricks College (now BYU Idaho), and a Presiding Bishop of the Church. He's currently 83 years old, and has no known physical ailments. He's from New Jersey. He has a tendency to cry a lot during his sermons. He was the first LDS apostle to meet a sitting Pope in 2014.

3) Dieter F Uchtdorf: Second Counselor in the First Presidency since 2008 and an apostle since 2004, and a Seventy since 1994. Uchtdorf was formally an executive at Lufthansa and a West German fighter pilot. He is the first German apostle and the first apostle from outside North America since 1952. He's currently 75 years old, and is in phenomenal health, from what it looks like. He was born in the Nazi puppet state of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, and fled both that and the new East Germany as a child. He's generally considered the most charismatic apostle and is a good speaker. Some would even call him "liberal".


In practice, the First Presidency delegates most of its authority over the church to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, twelve men who are called by the church president to serve for life as leaders of the church. You could think of them as Roman Catholic Cardinals, in a crude sense. They are named after the Twelve Apostles from the New Testament.

The Quorum members are the ones that "vote" on the new church president once the old president dies, and they are formally in charge of the various church departments. They are generally called from the Seventies, the third highest governing body in the church. The Quorum has a President of the Quorum who presides over their meetings when the prophet is not there. The President of the Quorum also plays a special role in succeeding the church president, which I'll discuss after this list. All three members of the First Presidency also count as members of the Quorum, but are under the authority of the Church President rather than the authority of the President of the Quorum.

1) Russell M Nelson: Apostle since 1984, Nelson was formerly a heart doctor, and has been present at many firsts in heart surgery. He even performed heart surgery on an apostle that later became church president. Nelson is currently 92 years old, and appears to be in relatively good shape for that age. If he outlives Monson (likely), he will become the next church president. He's had a few socially conservative talks, but his focus is usually on healing and learning.

2) Dallin H Oaks: Apostle since 1984, Utah Supreme Court Judge from 1980 to 1984, and President of BYU from 1971 to 1980. Oaks is probably one of the more conservative apostles, and often has strong "culture warrior" talks focusing on religious liberty and the right of the church to speak its own opinion. Mormon liberals don't tend to like him. He is 84 years old and in good health. He tends to give his sermons like a lawyer laying out a case. Despite being ordained at the same time as Nelson, Oaks is younger than Nelson, so is junior to him.

3) M Russell Ballard: Apostle since 1985 and member of the Quorum of Seventy from 1976, Ballard is what you could call a dynastic apostle. Both of his grandfathers were also apostles, and he descends from Hyrum Smith, the brother of church founder Joseph Smith. He is also a former car dealer (I’m not joking), and frequently tells a story of receiving a spiritual prompting to not invest in a particular car, doing so anyway, and losing most of his family’s income. He kind of sounds like Foghorn Leghorn. He is 88 years old and in good health.

4) Robert D Hales: Apostle since April 1994, Presiding Bishop from 1985 to 1994, and Quorum of the Seventy member from 1976 to 1985. Before his call to full-time church service, Hales was an executive with various companies. He is from New York City, and until recently, has been the Church’s “go-to” apostle when it comes to issues from that city. Since about 2010, he’s been terribly ill from what appears to be cancer (if his massive weight loss, gain, and loss again in some recorded sermons is any indication). I don’t expect him to live much long and I’m surprised that he has survived this long. He is 84 years old.

5) Jeffrey R Holland: Apostle since June 1994, Quorum of the Seventy member since 1989, and President of BYU from 1980 to 1989 (succeeding Dallin H. Oaks, incidentally). Holland is, along with Uchtdorf, one of the charismatic “rock star” apostles. Young people in the church love him for his passionate sermons and uncompromising nature. However, he’s also got a tolerant streak in his more recent sermons, and has displayed a very caring nature through the years. He’s the same age as Uchtdorf, 75, and in good health, though a little overweight.

6) David A Bednar: Apostle since 2004, and President of BYU Idaho from 1997-2006. Bednar is... kind of nondescript, in my opinion. He used to be the youngest member of the Quorum, and is still quite young for an apostle at 64 years old. He is one of the “culture warrior” apostles, and often talks about social issues and staying in the church. Due to his age and steadily increasing seniority, he is often talked about as a future church president. He is in good health, though his expression during his sermons makes him look very stressed out.

7) Quentin L Cook: Apostle since 2007 and member of the Quorum of the Seventy from 1998-2007. Cook is a former healthcare executive and attorney. He is the same age as Uchtdorf and Holland, at 75-76. He’s the descendant of a couple of apostles. Not much else to say, he’s pretty boring, honestly.

8 ) D Todd Christofferson: Apostle since 2008 (filling the vacancy left by deceased church president Gordon B Hinckley) and Seventy since 1993. Christofferson was a missionary in Argentina, where he served under the late Richard G. Scott who also became an apostle. Christofferson later became a lawyer/law clerk who clerked under the judge in charge of the Watergate hearings, and was in charge of the Church’s Family History Department for a while. He also has an openly gay (but supposedly celibate) brother, and he’s said to have a kinder view on LGBT topics. Christofferson has an almost Shakespearean style of speaking, and often quotes from Shakespeare plays.

9) Neil L Andersen: Apostle since 2009, Seventy since 1993. He is 65 years old and in good health. Andersen is an earnest, but not particularly charismatic speaker. He knows French. Former hospital executive. Not really that much to say about him.

10) Ronald A Rasband: Apostle since October 2015, Seventy since 2000. He worked for the Huntsman Corporation (owned by Jon Huntsman Sr) before becoming a Seventy. He was rumored to be a Democrat for years for some reason, but when a voter info leak came out last year, it turns out he’s a Republican. Rasband is 65 years old, and in good health. He’s new, so I don’t have much else to say.

11) Gary E Stevenson: Apostle since October 2015, Presiding Bishop from 2012 to 2015, Seventy from 2008-2012. Stevenson was a Chief Operating Officer at a fitness company before his call to full-time church service. Sensing a pattern? In any case, Stevenson is currently the youngest apostle at 61 years old, and is in good health. Not much else to say.

12) Dale G Renlund: Apostle since October 2015, Seventy since 2009. Renlund is a heart doctor like Russell M Nelson, which may indicate some influence from Nelson on apostle selection. Renlund is a first-generation American, born to Swedish and Finnish Mormon immigrants to the US. He even lived in Sweden for a year or so as a teenager, and his first language was Swedish.  Renlund is a confirmed Democrat, as shown in the Utah voter leak I mentioned on Rasband’s blurb, the only in the Quorum. He is 63 years old and healthy. He is also the 100th apostle in the history of the LDS Church.

When the church president dies, the First Presidency is formally dissolved, and the Quorum of the Twelve essentially becomes the Quorum of the Fourteen. Since Brigham Young's succeeding of Joseph Smith as Church President, the next Church President has always been the most senior apostle after the current church president. This senior apostle automatically becomes President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and presides over the Quorum, but if they are already in the First Presidency, there is an Acting President to fulfill those duties. By senior I don't mean age, I mean service in the Quorum. However, if two apostles were ordained at the same time (which has happened), the older apostle would become church president first. First Presidency service does not invalidate previous Quorum service.

Including the current president, the seniority (and age) goes like this:

1) Thomas S Monson (89)
2) Russell M Nelson (92)
3) Dallin H Oaks (84)
4) M Russell Ballard (88)
5) Robert D Hales (84)
6) Jeffrey R Holland (75)
7) Henry B Eyring (83)
8 ) Dieter F Uchtdorf (75)
9) David A Bednar (65)
10) Quentin L Cook (76)
11) D Todd Christofferson (71)
12) Neil L Andersen (65)
13) Ronald A Rasband (65)
14) Gary E Stevenson (61)
15) Dale G Renlund (63)
Logged
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,451
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2016, 02:42:50 PM »

Did I scare everyone off with the preceding post?
Logged
The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,174
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2016, 02:52:27 PM »

No, you've been quite informative.

If I ever write that novel about a dystopian world where Utah becomes a theocracy that splits and winds up in a civil war due to a schism within the LDS Church, I'll be sure to give you credit. Grin
Logged
RI
realisticidealist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,717


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2016, 02:57:38 PM »

How do you/people in your church feel about McMullin's performance? I have several Mormon friends who were really dismayed and even "disillusioned" concerning their co-religionists with regard to how Utah broke hard for Trump at the last minute.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.067 seconds with 13 queries.