The Mormonism Thread 2.0

[Mr. Smith]

What political issues are important in the mormon community?

 - Gay marriage, and that one ain't goin' away anytime soon. Honestly just about anything LGBTAQ is gonna be turn the community into a bunch o' deer-in-the-headlights. LGBT for one reason, AQ for another.

  - Weed/Marijuana , there's one side that's still ahead that takes the "it's bad for you so ban it" route, and then there's the anti-prohibitionist route (I personally favor the latter category).

  - There's probably a good chunk that think exactly like SunriseAroundTheWorld since there's a bit of Zionist streak going on [No idea if the OP chose that name with some irony or not, but it's rather reflective]

Two questions:

1) What does a typical Mormon liturgy look like for a normal Sunday service? Does it vary much between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the fringier groups?

2) Related, to SamTilden's question, what are the major theological debates in the main LDS denomination.

A normal service looks like:

A: 1 hour of what is called Sacrament Meeting, which is pretty much our mass.

- Albeit with 8 people to do the Communion, since the figurative body and blood of Christ goes to the people rather than forcing the people up.

- Instead of a bunch of "Readings" from -Insert Bible Book Here- and a sermon or two, you get a bunch of individual speakers on one concrete gospel related topic...unless it's Fast Sunday, then you got a bunch 'o people telling things as they see it, most of them go down to inelegant blubbering.


B

1. Sunday School
2. Primary (Sunday School Jr)
3. Nursery

C: A Bunch o' meetings segregated by Age and Gender

1. Elder's Quorum (that's me)
2. High Priests (the codgery dudes)
3. Relief Society (women)
4. Young Men
5. Young Women

Everything comes out to about 3 hours [but if you got some talkative, smarta^& teachin' or disruptive people at any point it could go longer]


No idea how much splinter groups keep to the formula.

...And that's all I have time for.

[Mr. Smith]

Considering quite a few of the early GA's were Masons themselves...

[Mr. Smith]

General Conference is a bit boring at the moment (and also my feed isn't working very well), so I'll answer these questions instead.

-What Ralleytand/Mormon Dem said, but also there's a bit of "charismatic" Christianity dragged in, in that you're encouraged to speak from the heart, premonitions are often mentioned in these laymen sermons, and crying is not considered uncouth or inappropriate. In fact, a man getting all teary is considered masculine, in a way. Hence why Glenn Beck is considered a model Mormon in some respects during his show. He cries when feeling something inspirational or terrifying, and speaks emotionally of his experiences with faith and spirituality. That's considered okay during these speeches.

I think this was alluded earlier but I'd like to confirm it. When I was asking about liturgy, I meant during the actual service/sacrament/meeting. From what it sounds like, Mormon sacarement meetings are very low church (e.g. no set prayers) compared to mainstream Christianity, or even Evangelicalism. Is that correct?

Oh, there's a set prayer for the actual sacrament/communion, but the opening and closing prayers of the meeting are not set, and are based on the inspiration of the random member asked to give a prayer.

There's also no gold or incense or anything like that, just plastic/metal trays, plastic water cups, bread from whoever was asked to supply the bread, and that's about it. I guess if that's low church, we're low church, then.

Usually at the beginning of the meeting, after the opening prayer but before Sacrament, the bishop or one of his counselors talk about organizational concerns, like who is ordained to a calling, and who is released from a calling. Someone could be called to be the pianist for the congregation for a few years, released, then called to be in charge of Sunday School classes for the next few years, for example.

After the organizational stuff, Sacrament happens. The set sacrament prayer is given by 16-18 year old "priests" then 12-14 year old "deacons" go through the chapel area and give the congregation the bread and water. After all of the congregation has been given the sacrament and all trays and items have been stored away, the rest of Sacrament meeting happens, in which laymen members of the congregation who have been asked to give a sermon give their sermons, usually prepared by them personally, but with a theme they should cover. For example, once I was asked to give a sermon (a "talk" in LDS-speak) about the importance of baptism. I was given a three week heads up, and I wrote down notes, but also prayed about what I should say, and then three weeks later, I gave it in sacrament meeting after the sacrament was given.

How do y'all worship?

Do you mean how we pray? Privately, we pray on our knees or sitting, if possible, with our arms crossed, eyes closed, head bent down. Sometimes we clasp our own hands if not able to cross our arms. We do not hold hands in prayer like other churches (like my grandmother's Nazrene Church) do. In public, usually there's someone standing up and giving a prayer as I have described, but otherwise, no difference.

The prayer itself usually begins with "Dear Heavenly Father", "Our Father in Heaven", or something similar, and we ask for blessings, give thanks for what we have, ask specifics or in general terms, etc. Usually, we address God/Heavenly Father in "thee", "thine", and "thou" terms, though not always. We end the prayer with "in the name of Jesus Christ" or "In Jesus's name", and then always "Amen".

Also regarding Masonry, modern Mormons don't like it, but a bunch of early church leaders ("General Authorities" is what Ralleytand means by "GAs") were Freemasons. We don't really think about it much now, though the anti-Mormon crowd likes to claim that Joseph Smith's church was based on Masonry.

1. This is of course referring to the stereotypical "family wards" (or general congregation in layman's terms), there are also congregations meant specifically for Twenty/Thirty-something singles, in which case Elders (18-whenever one becomes a High Priest) have to all that stuff.

2. Never heard of such issues with Masonry.

[Mr. Smith]

General Conference is on for anyone interested.

[Mr. Smith]

Two questions for the Mormons on the board:

1) I've been reading a lot recently that the LDS church is having difficulty retaining youth. Common factors cited include the rise of the internet, LDS's refusal to liberalize etc. However, I noticed a lot of what I had been reading in support of this was from ex-Mormon sites i.e really biased sources. Is there any truth to their claims?

2) Is there a cultural divide between Utah and non-Utah Mormons?

1. I don't know the exact numbers, but I do think some of that has to do with the high baptism rates in the first place. Lots of people, especially youth might convert in moments of troubled times and hope it turns a new leaf for 'em, that things'll be peachy because of some good feelings they had. It just doesn't always work out that way.

That and the internet has a way of leaking all sorts of unsavory aspects of everything, which can turn people off.

And then you have those who are were raised all their life in The Church, but still had an awful family life. The Church's stress on the nuclear family and doing things together is simply not going to ring well with those kinds of people.

Also, youth are kinda on a spiritual decline these days anyway.

Ultimately, I believe very much in the saying "The Church is true, the people aren't", but I think those who are younger and more idealistic might not be able to accept that.

2. Oh hell yes, look at how mild-mannered Zioneer is, now look at myself or Jimmie. One of us did something crazy enough to not be a mod, the other one curses like a sailor. You don't even need to leave Atlas to see the difference, which is saying something considering 3/4 of us are Democrats, but we're in the 10% overall that aren't Republican.

Atlas aside though, a lot of the differences have to do with the fact that Utah (and Eastern Idaho) is majority Mormon, where certain values are expected all the time, where other lifestyles don't necessarily get as much exposure.

Culturally, it kinda leads to a bit of an Enlightened North vs Moral South sort of thing.

Spiritually, the way faith is tested is going to be very very different for obvious reasons, and that itself is going to feed back into the cultural loop.

I could go even further and suggest that there is another divide between European Mormons, American ones, and Pacific Islander ones too.

I mean, at the end of the day, even with the same Church and gospel, environment does have a part to play in these things.

[Mr. Smith]

I could go even further and suggest that there is another divide between European Mormons, American ones, and Pacific Islander ones too.

Could you expound on this?

Keep in mind that the best I can do anecdotal stuff, but here goes.

I've noticed that Americans tend to be the most uptight and materialistic and comfortable with the hierarchy, Pacific Islanders tend to be a bit more relaxed but also very conservative and most open to talking about abstract stuff, and Europeans tend to be the most casual.

When there's a party going on, and it's majority Pac-Islander, it seems to be that Hawaiian Haystack is guaranteed a presence. With Americans, it's the jello-marshmallow stuff as a dessert. But both are pretty big staples most of the time anyway.

[Mr. Smith]

I would also add that Mormons from Provo and its immediate environs, and rural Utah Mormons are different from Mormons from Salt Lake County, especially Salt Lake City. The Provoite Mormons, so to speak, are the most theologically and politically conservative, and at least the ones I've met are survivalist types.

Similar to them in culture are Mormons from the Mormon-majority areas of Idaho.

And it's Provo/the BYU area that usually defines Utah.

Kinda like how best French is in France, and then in Paris, that kinda thing.

I know lots of less active folk here that quite literally only support U of U to spite the BYU crowd.

[Mr. Smith]

I would also add that Mormons from Provo and its immediate environs, and rural Utah Mormons are different from Mormons from Salt Lake County, especially Salt Lake City. The Provoite Mormons, so to speak, are the most theologically and politically conservative, and at least the ones I've met are survivalist types.

Similar to them in culture are Mormons from the Mormon-majority areas of Idaho.

And it's Provo/the BYU area that usually defines Utah.

Kinda like how best French is in France, and then in Paris, that kinda thing.

I know lots of less active folk here that quite literally only support U of U to spite the BYU crowd.

Yeah, four of the apostles are former presidents of one of the BYUs, in fact.

I'm surprised how many actually had a presence at the one in Rexburg and how much Rexburg plays a part of perception of the Utah Mormon.

[Mr. Smith]

Two more questions:

1) Could someone give or point me to a reasonably fair summary of the problems the LDS church is facing, how they are coping with them etc? Most of the Mormon produced stuff I could find was kind of happy go lucky, and the exMormon websites are hardcore hacks in the other direction.

2) There are Mormon communities in Europe that are fairly old, correct? Do they have any particular distinctive? Did certain demographics tend to join say, the Swedish or French Mormons back in the day?

1. Why do you assume happy-go-lucky doesn't say much? It's very much ingrained in culture to look at things optimistically and rosily. But that doesn't mean things aren't gonna be acknowledged. Also, much of the "issues" and problems do have some dependency on the area. For example, for all the talk about gay rights issues and homophobia, you wouldn't think such a thing was a thing in my neck of the woods. On the other hand, inactivity and substance issues among new converts are quite rampant. This is because, hey waita second, we don't live in vacuum. Also local bishops and Stake Presidents aren't exactly powerless themselves

2. There are quite a lot of fairly old communities for sure, considering Europe was one of the first places outside the U.S. where missionaries went to, this shouldn't be surprising. While I can't say for sure with any hard data what class would be most likely to join, I'd imagine those in a rut of some kind would be most likely.

That said, most of those communities aren't that big in part because of the encouragement to go to Utah and gather around there [the whole Zion thing, but eventually as the church grew and it became less and less feasible, they pretty much said "No worries, Zion's right where you are, if you make it so"] . I imagine then, that it was remnants who lacked the money to pay the expenses to board vessels and get those handcarts that made up the communities.

I am, in fact, descended from Swedes. But they migrated relatively early and joined all those other Larsens and Sorensons and Andersons and Osmundsons to eventually make up a disproportionate amount of surnames in Utah [seriously, I bet only Minnesota has more Scandinavian names in it at this point].

[Mr. Smith]

Oh, I forgot to mention this, but it appears that President Monson, who's the church president, is not going to be attending regular meetings from now on.

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I think everyone knew this was coming after Monson's visible health problems over the past few years, and though it's incredibly sad to watch his condition deteriorate before our eyes, this has happened before with previous church presidents. We have a very stable line of succession, so there's no issue there, and the rest of the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles can likely take over for Monson as his condition grows worse.

...And we have 90+ year old Nelson as next in line.

[Mr. Smith]

What do Mormons consider to be expressions of the unpardonable sin (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit), a doctrine shared by Mormonism and traditional orthodox Christianity?  

Also, how do Mormons reconcile the clear monotheistic passages like Isaiah 44:6-8 with a belief that humans can become gods - is this seen as a difference in translation or interpretation vis a vis trinitarian Christianity?

1. OMG (where the "G" ain't gosh), G*(ammit, For G*&'s sake  [I assume you're talking about taking the Lord's name in Vain?]

2. Context is key, firstly it's most likely the case that that was said in the context of idol worship and even without that, there were things not revealed then to be revealed in the New Testament, and far as we're concerned, it's still going.

[Mr. Smith]

So what is Kolob?

I'm not Mormon myself, but I do live in Utah, so I have more credibility than most non-Mormons.

It's part of the Book of Abraham, a text that Mormons believe Joseph Smith, founder of the LDS faith, translated from the Joseph Smith Papyri, an Ancient Egyptian text that a member of the church acquired from an archaeologist and gave to Smith. Mormons believe that Kolob is the celestial body - it's disputed whether it's a star or planet - closest to the Throne of God, the reigning center of God. The Throne of God can also be found in other Christian sects, Islam, and Judaism.

Really, it isn't a very fleshed out part of the religion.

Yeah, that's a topic that even your average, goody-goody, every week, all-3 hours, doesn't know  a curse word Peter Priesthood/Molly Mormon could go their whole life not knowing jack about.