Seriously, my fellow lefties...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Just some thoughts.

I've never been thrilled about Hillary's candidacy. Not in 2008 and not now. I'm far from the sore losers crowd, still bitching about her being an evil corporate shill etc. I just have doubts about her being the right person for the job, which I've been trying to explain in various threads. Unfortunately, during the course of this campaign she's been mostly deepening my doubts than the opposite. I strongly supporter Sanders during the primary and I think he'd make much better nominee. I'd also be much more comfortable with such people like Biden or Warren, had they ran.

But that doesn't matter. We live in a real world where we must make more or less pragmatic choices. I may be lukewarm about Hillary, but I'll take her not only over Trump, but any other Republican candidate. The reason is simple: whatever her (and pretty much any other nominee) flaws are, she's still the progressive candidate in this race and she would have to govern in the way accommodating a Democratic base. And every Republican President (no matter how "muh moderate") would have to govern in the way to accommodate the GOP rank-and-file. That's a reality.

That's why I'm tired with those arguing it would be better to let the Republicans win this one and get "better candidate" next time, or those who would waste their vote for Stein or Johnson, effectively helping to elect Trump. Even if Libertarians and Greens filled actually competent candidates, it still would hold. Consequences of such approachment could be really dire not just for the United States, but the entire world.

As a Polish voters I'm pretty much accustomed to have to make pragmatic choices in the voting booth. I'm afraid many Americans are not.

Sorry for rambling, just wanted to make my positions clear.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Truth.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I agree with your sentiment as a whole, Kal, but I don't see what the problem is in voting for Stein/Johnson if one lives in a safe state.

Fair point. There are certainly states that are just safe, but... maybe it's just my experience as a Polish voter again, but I've seen many races that were considered a lock being blown away by people either deciding to cast such another vote ("because it doesn't matter") or not bothering to show up ("meh, she/he is going to win anyway")... Yeah, I know it won't apply to Massachusetts or Alabama, but I'd be cautious nonetheless. Especially since some polls makes certain states appear more solid than they really are.

[Phony Moderate]

It's possible to be pragmatic about being pragmatic.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I'd be convinced by this if my state and my CD weren't both Titanium D. I'll be voting on the Massachusetts ballot measures, but not for any elected office.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'd be convinced by this if my state and my CD weren't both Titanium D. I'll be voting on the Massachusetts ballot measures, but not for any elected office.

There is more to an election than who the winner is. The margin matters: if Hillary wins by 1 point, it will have very different implications for the future of US political discourse than if she wins by 10.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I'd be convinced by this if my state and my CD weren't both Titanium D. I'll be voting on the Massachusetts ballot measures, but not for any elected office.

There is more to an election than who the winner is. The margin matters: if Hillary wins by 1 point, it will have very different implications for the future of US political discourse than if she wins by 10.

I don't like Hillary enough to want to give her 'a mandate' but I do hate Trump enough to want to give him an anti-mandate, so I've already considered this and it was actually a very hard choice.

I'm actually semi-convinced by the idea that the best outcome would be a Hillary landslide but only modest Democratic downballot gains, as a repudiation of Trump specifically so the pro-Trump Republicans can't spin it to be about something else.

[Torie]

I'd be convinced by this if my state and my CD weren't both Titanium D. I'll be voting on the Massachusetts ballot measures, but not for any elected office.

There is more to an election than who the winner is. The margin matters: if Hillary wins by 1 point, it will have very different implications for the future of US political discourse than if she wins by 10.

I don't like Hillary enough to want to give her 'a mandate' but I do hate Trump enough to want to give him an anti-mandate, so I've already considered this and it was actually a very hard choice.

I'm actually semi-convinced by the idea that the best outcome would be a Hillary landslide but only modest Democratic downballot gains, as a repudiation of Trump specifically so the pro-Trump Republicans can't spin it to be about something else.

Correct. Just lose the "semi."

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'd be convinced by this if my state and my CD weren't both Titanium D. I'll be voting on the Massachusetts ballot measures, but not for any elected office.

There is more to an election than who the winner is. The margin matters: if Hillary wins by 1 point, it will have very different implications for the future of US political discourse than if she wins by 10.

I don't like Hillary enough to want to give her 'a mandate' but I do hate Trump enough to want to give him an anti-mandate, so I've already considered this and it was actually a very hard choice.

I'm actually semi-convinced by the idea that the best outcome would be a Hillary landslide but only modest Democratic downballot gains, as a repudiation of Trump specifically so the pro-Trump Republicans can't spin it to be about something else.

I really can't agree with this. Not only is continued Republican control of Congress and State governments too great an evil to make this trade-off worthwhile, but I even if it were, I don't think the connection between Drumpf and downballot candidates works this way at all. If Republicans suffer serious losses at all levels of government in a year when they have no particular reason to, most people will draw the conclusion that Drumpf is what dragged them down. This, in turn, will give them even more reasons to ensure that a candidate like him never emerges again.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'd be convinced by this if my state and my CD weren't both Titanium D. I'll be voting on the Massachusetts ballot measures, but not for any elected office.

There is more to an election than who the winner is. The margin matters: if Hillary wins by 1 point, it will have very different implications for the future of US political discourse than if she wins by 10.

You men like how Obama's reasonably impressive margins in the PV gave him a mandate?  Congresscritters in safe gerrymandered districts aren't going to be influenced by the margin in the popular vote.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'd be convinced by this if my state and my CD weren't both Titanium D. I'll be voting on the Massachusetts ballot measures, but not for any elected office.

There is more to an election than who the winner is. The margin matters: if Hillary wins by 1 point, it will have very different implications for the future of US political discourse than if she wins by 10.

You men like how Obama's reasonably impressive margins in the PV gave him a mandate?  Congresscritters in safe gerrymandered districts aren't going to be influenced by the margin in the popular vote.

I'm not talking about the next 4 years.

[Xing]

I fully agree. I'm not enamored with Hillary, but she's definitely qualified and prepared to be president, and it's essential that we stop Trump.

[OSR stands with Israel]

You should be glad that the Republicans nominated that moron Trump. I just wish Democrats had nominated a decent person like SandersWebb or Chafee.

FTFY

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

How many Polaks does it take to swing an election? A lot! Duh dum duh ching!

[Antonio the Sixth]

You should be glad that the Republicans nominated that moron Trump. I just wish Democrats had nominated a decent person like SandersWebb or Chafee.

FTFY

Webb fanboyism is so weird.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

You should be glad that the Republicans nominated that moron Trump. I just wish Democrats had nominated a decent person like SandersWebb or Chafee.

FTFY

Webb fanboyism is so weird.

I've seen weirder

I once dreamed that I was being dominated by Tulsi Gabbard.

[Antonio the Sixth]

You should be glad that the Republicans nominated that moron Trump. I just wish Democrats had nominated a decent person like SandersWebb or Chafee.

FTFY

Webb fanboyism is so weird.

I've seen weirder

I once dreamed that I was being dominated by Tulsi Gabbard.

Nah, even BRTD's fetishes are more comprehensible.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you're not voting for Hillary Clinton then you don't really care what happens to this country because it'll always be safe for people like you.

[This account no longer in use.]

You should be glad that the Republicans nominated that moron Trump. I just wish Democrats had nominated a decent person like SandersWebb or Chafee.

FTFY

Webb fanboyism is so weird.

I've seen weirder

I once dreamed that I was being dominated by Tulsi Gabbard.

As somebody who has seen BRTD's section on AAD, that's pretty tame by his standards.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

If you're not voting for Hillary Clinton then you don't really care what happens to this country because it'll always be safe for people like you.

As a multiply-disabled person with a name (full name, not just 'Nathan') that's been put in echo parentheses multiple times, I deeply resent that.

[Bacon King]

If you're not voting for Hillary Clinton then you don't really care what happens to this country because it'll always be safe for people like you.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you're not voting for Hillary Clinton then you don't really care what happens to this country because it'll always be safe for people like you.

As a multiply-disabled person with a name (full name, not just 'Nathan') that's been put in echo parentheses multiple times, I deeply resent that.

It's pretty remarkable that in spite of all that you're willing to engage in such a fit of pique, then.

[Oakvale]

Xahar is, as always, right. I don't really understand why people treat voting as some extension of their personality where it's important that they can feel nice or whatever? It's so adolescent.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

What makes the refusal to vote for Hillary Clinton even worse, is that the people who refuse to vote for her can't comprehend the idea that, yes, this country and, more broadly, the world could easily become a toxic heap of radioactive sludge that would be deadly to all, regardless of one's skin color or one's religious preference or one's sexual orientation. Ultimately, our continued existence as a species is what is at stake in this election: we have a candidate who is mentally unstable and one who is not. We have one who believes that climate change is a hoax and one who acknowledges that is real. We have a candidate who believes that the Geneva Convention's binding rules of war ought to be shredded and we have a candidate who pledges to respect the Geneva Convention. I could go on and on and on like this but you get my point: we are standing on a precipice right now. There's a clear choice between someone who embodies evil in every possible way and someone who is totally palatable. Make the right choice and feel proud about this. Own your decision to vote for Hillary Clinton and feel proud about it: you are doing your part to save the world and you will be pumping the breaks on the doomsday train.

I don't think I'm exaggerating about this: over the past few years, the world has become increasingly dangerous, increasingly intolerant, increasingly militaristic and increasingly Evil. No more. I'm not willing to put up with this anymore and my vote for Clinton has symbolic value as a vote against the monsters who thrive on bigotry and hatred and Know-Nothingism and militarism and racism and ignorance. Make it stop: vote for Clinton.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

If I do decide to cast a completely supererogatory vote for Clinton, it certainly won't be because people I sort-of-know on the internet guilt-tripped me into it.