Manta Small Business Owner Poll: Trump +18
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  Manta Small Business Owner Poll: Trump +18
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Author Topic: Manta Small Business Owner Poll: Trump +18  (Read 1850 times)
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Junior Chimp
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« on: October 06, 2016, 02:12:49 PM »

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/05/small-business-says-trump-is-their-pick-for-president.html

All Small Business Owners:
Trump: 58.7%
Clinton: 41.3%

Male Small Business Owners:
Trump: 68.6%
Clinton: 31.4%

Femal Small Business Owners:
Clinton: 56%
Trump: 44%
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Ebsy
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2016, 02:14:05 PM »

Waste of time poll.
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dspNY
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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2016, 02:34:12 PM »

Surprising this isn't more Republican than +18
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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2016, 02:46:29 PM »

Surprising this isn't more Republican than +18

Is there any similar data from previous elections?
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2016, 02:50:08 PM »

My personal theory during the Republican Primary was the Trump's two main hardcore idiot support groups were his white working class (male) supporters that were discussed so much and upper middle class white (male) small business owners.
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Beefalow and the Consumer
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« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2016, 02:52:42 PM »

Country   2015 Corporate tax rate
United States   35%
France   34.43%
Belgium   33%
Australia   30%
Mexico   30.0%
New Zealand   28%
Portugal   28%
Spain   28%
Italy   27.5%
Norway   27%
Israel   26.5%
Greece   26%
Austria   25%
Iran   25%
Netherlands   25%
Denmark   23.5%
Chile   22.5%
Luxembourg   22.47%
Korea   22%
Slovak Republic   22%
Sweden   22%
Estonia   20%
Finland   20%
Iceland   20%
Turkey   20%
United Kingdom   20%
Czech Republic   19%
Hungary   19%
Poland   19%
Slovenia   17%
Germany   15.83%
Canada   15%
Ireland   12.5%
Switzerland   8.5%

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2016, 02:57:36 PM »

Country   2015 Corporate tax rate
United States   35%
France   34.43%
Belgium   33%
Australia   30%
Mexico   30.0%
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax

Now post the effective corporate income tax rate and the small business tax rates.
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Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2016, 03:12:24 PM »

Country   2015 Corporate tax rate
United States   35%
France   34.43%
Belgium   33%
Australia   30%
Mexico   30.0%
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax

Now post the effective corporate income tax rate and the small business tax rates.

I was unable to find "small business tax rates." Partially because what's a "small business" anyway?  We have horrible tax structure issues in this country.  Europe has income tax on the wealthy and value added tax, not income tax squarely on the middle class, corporate tax, and sales tax.  In Europe the effective tax burden on everyone is lower, and they can afford more services.  But we're Murica, so we do it stupid.

Small business owners in the country are right to be angry.  They aren't choosing the proper solution, but that's mostly because the proper solution hasn't be presented.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2016, 03:21:19 PM »

That's the thing - less and less companies are signing up to be C corps that are responsible for paying the corporate tax.
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Beefalow and the Consumer
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2016, 03:29:52 PM »

That's the thing - less and less companies are signing up to be C corps that are responsible for paying the corporate tax.

What should happen is small businesses should be able to incorporate as C corps, corporate income gets taxed at a low rate, and the business owners'/executives' income gets taxed at a high rate.  This encourages more money to go back into the business - higher wages for employees, investment in capital, etc.  Executives only make a few times more than cashiers, not 2000x more, the local economy grows, people have money to buy the stuff the small business sells, everyone is happy.

There is no reason on God's green earth that S corps should be a thing.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2016, 03:34:56 PM »

Yes the US corporate tax rate is really high but almost no company pays anything close to that rate. How about lowering it to something reasonable (something like 20-25%) and then close all loopholes and deductions.
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Beefalow and the Consumer
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« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2016, 03:45:53 PM »

Yes the US corporate tax rate is really high but almost no company pays anything close to that rate. How about lowering it to something reasonable (something like 20-25%) and then close all loopholes and deductions.

I entirely agree.  This, coupled with a drastic increase in the marginal tax rate on high incomes.  We should live in a world in which cashiers can own a home and executives make $500k to $1m/year.  Not a world in which cashiers make poverty wages and executives make $50m/year.

Where the high business taxes really hit home is where it becomes more advantageous for small business owners, who are not wealthy people, to incorporate as S corps.  Which taxes all their business income as personal income.  That ends up being the worst of all worlds.  Tax policy is screwing them, and I totally understand where the GOP is more attractive.

My parents operate an S corp in Wisconsin.  Because they place contractors and have delayed reimbursements from clients, they have to meet massive payrolls at times.  It's hairy and nasty, and they aren't rich.  The struggle, as they say, is real.  Of course, because my parents are decent human beings, they oppose Trump with every fiber of their being Smiley.
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seb_pard
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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2016, 04:40:30 PM »

Does vulnerable workers who aka "independent contractors" classify as "small business owner" in this poll?
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Kempros
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2016, 04:48:41 PM »

The rise of Socialism, benefits those who don't want to work and harms the people who do want work hard. Its why we have capitalism. I hope to god our country is not turning into 1917 Russia.

I can see that the businesses would not do as well with more money being in the hands of the government, not the people.
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Sorenroy
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« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2016, 04:52:51 PM »

Surprising this isn't more Republican than +18

Is there any similar data from previous elections?

I did a search for "small business owner poll obama romney" for articles around the 2012 election. Here's what I could find (listed by date, oldest to newest):


57 Romney - 32 Obama, Romney +25, unknown sample, assumed Manta poll, assumed published in the Washington Post in May, 2012. [URL]

61 Romney - 26 Obama, Romney +35, ~2,000 small business owners, Manta poll, published in the Washington Post on August 21st, 2012. [URL]

47 Obama - 39 Romney, Obama +8, 6,415 small business owners, George Washington University poll, published in PoliticusUSA on September 18th, 2012 and the Washington Post September 19th, 2012. [URL] [URL]

47 Obama - 47 Romney, Tie, unknown subsample, Gallup poll conducted September 24th, 2012 to September 27th, 2012, published in USA Today on September 30, 2012. [URL]

47 Romney - 35 Obama, Romney +12, 1,200 small business owners, Manta poll conducted in September 2012, published in the American Express October 9th, 2012. [URL]



According to the Manta polls, small business owners are actually supporting Trump more than they supported Romney in 2012.


Others polls that didn't quite fit:
Gallup poll of "Business Owners" April and May 2012
Discover Small Business Watch survey for the 2011 Midterm (???)
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Sorenroy
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« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2016, 04:56:25 PM »

Surprising this isn't more Republican than +18

Is there any similar data from previous elections?

I did a search for "small business owner poll obama romney" for articles around the 2012 election. Here's what I could find (listed by date, oldest to newest):


57 Romney - 32 Obama, Romney +25, unknown sample, assumed Manta poll, assumed published in the Washington Post in May, 2012. [URL]

61 Romney - 26 Obama, Romney +35, ~2,000 small business owners, Manta poll, published in the Washington Post on August 21st, 2012. [URL]

47 Obama - 39 Romney, Obama +8, 6,415 small business owners, George Washington University poll, published in PoliticusUSA on September 18th, 2012 and the Washington Post September 19th, 2012. [URL] [URL]

47 Obama - 47 Romney, Tie, unknown subsample, Gallup poll conducted September 24th, 2012 to September 27th, 2012, published in USA Today on September 30, 2012. [URL]

47 Romney - 35 Obama, Romney +12, 1,200 small business owners, Manta poll conducted in September 2012, published in the American Express October 9th, 2012. [URL]



According to the Manta polls, small business owners are actually supporting Trump more than they supported Romney in 2012.


Others polls that didn't quite fit:
Gallup poll of "Business Owners" April and May 2012
Discover Small Business Watch survey for the 2011 Midterm (Huh)

That took way to long...
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2016, 05:13:12 PM »

What's problematic about this poll, is that it's virtually impossible to tell what are considered "small business owners", of whom many are essentially self-employed or have a few family members working for them, with maybe a small handful of employees versus "small businesses" that are actually privately owned companies with tens or hundreds of Million dollars in Revenue and 250-2500+ employees.

Additionally, does the guy down the street that runs his "Taco Truck" where we go every other weekend for takeout, participate in this social network where the poll originated?

Also, it would be interesting to see what issues small business owners rate as their top priorities in the upcoming election, where obviously social and foreign policy issues concern them, like all other Americans, as well as particular issues that concern them in terms of Federal policy that directly impacts their survival as a small business.

The overwhelming majority of Americans are extremely sympathetic to actual "small" business owners. It's part of the American dream to be able to be your own boss and through dint of one own's hard work be able to provide services to your customers at the highest level, and be able to buy a home, send the kids to college, and set some money aside for retirement.

For small business owners that have direct, non-family employees, no doubt minimum wage increases, complexities of health care requirements, food safety regulations, insurance, etc create uncertainty, especially when you are trying to keep your business afloat with the inevitable ups and downs that come with changing economic times....

In terms of the 2016 election, "small business" owners won't play a major factor, and as a nation issues facing legitimate small businesses should be discussed more often so that there can be reforms that are supportive, but still eliminate loopholes that favor larger family-owned businesses that are dodging taxes, illegal employee hiring/payroll/safety practices, etc to avoid their civic responsibilities.
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2016, 08:23:56 PM »

I really wish the US was like Switzerland.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2016, 09:42:55 PM »

A Republican candidate should be +48, not +18.  Trump is a joke.
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Badger
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« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2016, 11:55:13 PM »

IIRC, the SBA definition of a "small business" is one with under 2000 employees.

Consider that.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2016, 08:35:25 AM »

That's the thing - less and less companies are signing up to be C corps that are responsible for paying the corporate tax.
That's primarily because it's easier and cheaper to create an S Corp than a C Corp. Any competently run small business that's a C Corp can by increasing the owner's salary keep away from having the company pay the relatively high tax rates for corporate income over $75,000.
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2016, 11:42:24 AM »

Yes the US corporate tax rate is really high but almost no company pays anything close to that rate. How about lowering it to something reasonable (something like 20-25%) and then close all loopholes and deductions.

I entirely agree.  This, coupled with a drastic increase in the marginal tax rate on high incomes.  We should live in a world in which cashiers can own a home and executives make $500k to $1m/year.  Not a world in which cashiers make poverty wages and executives make $50m/year.

Where the high business taxes really hit home is where it becomes more advantageous for small business owners, who are not wealthy people, to incorporate as S corps.  Which taxes all their business income as personal income.  That ends up being the worst of all worlds.  Tax policy is screwing them, and I totally understand where the GOP is more attractive.

My parents operate an S corp in Wisconsin.  Because they place contractors and have delayed reimbursements from clients, they have to meet massive payrolls at times.  It's hairy and nasty, and they aren't rich.  The struggle, as they say, is real.  Of course, because my parents are decent human beings, they oppose Trump with every fiber of their being Smiley.

Good points.  You have to wonder what it is that has kept tax policy on small business the insane way it is.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2016, 12:01:31 PM »


No...
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Sorenroy
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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2016, 01:23:05 PM »


Yes...

If you actually disagree, what do you think it is? It appears the source is https://www.meridianglobalservices.com/swissincreasevatrate/ for that number by the way.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2016, 01:32:11 PM »


8.5% is the federal rate, in practice, the federal rate by itself is not hugely meaningful as most tax collection happens at the Cantonal level.

Federal + cantonal rates vary from about 12% in the tax haven cantons like Zug, Schwyz and Nidwald up to 22-24% in the left leaning ones like Neuchatel and Geneva.

See here

It just annoys me that people paint Switzerland like some libertarian paradise. It has nationalised electricity, gas, water, railways; highly subsidised universities; strong labour unions and a beefed up version of Obamacare as its health system.

By the way, VAT is not corporation tax, it's a sales tax.
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