Religious People - Where do you stand on the creationist/evolutionist scale?
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  Religious People - Where do you stand on the creationist/evolutionist scale?
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Poll
Question: Just pick the answer you are closest to
#1
Young Earth Creationist - The world was created by a/some god(s), sometime in the last 10,000 years, in a short amount of time. Evolution is heresy.
#2
Old Earth Creationist - Scientists are roughly correct about the age of the earth, but evolution did not happen. A/some god(s) created each species at certain times in history from dust or similar.
#3
Progressive Creationist - Scientists are roughly correct about the age of the earth, and species did develop from previous species, but no actual evolution is present. A/some god(s) created new species out of parts of previous species without natural sele
#4
Theistic Evolutionist - Scientists are roughly correct about the age of the earth, and natural selection did happen to a point. However, A/some god(s) guided the process throughout with a clear end goal in mind and did some of the "evolution" on
#5
Darwinian Evolutionist - The theory of evolution is fully correct and valid. This does not prohibit a god from existing according to my beliefs.
#6
Do not believe in any gods
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Author Topic: Religious People - Where do you stand on the creationist/evolutionist scale?  (Read 3923 times)
muon2
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2016, 04:42:09 PM »

I think the question is perhaps backwards. I believe that it is our role to discern the nature of the universe, its creation, and through that God's relationship to humans. Discernment is a neverending process and continually reveals new facts. So today we can speak of a universe that dates to 13.8 Gya, and Earth to 4.5 Gya. We can speak of an evolutionary process at the molecular level involving changes to DNA. I believe we will continue to discern new facts about the universe and life on Earth, some of which will supplant facts we currently accept.
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RFayette
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2016, 12:01:49 AM »

Young Earth. Though am open to the day-age view.

6-12 thousand years at the most.

... What? There are enormous, even vast amounts of scientific proof to completely discredit any notion of a young earth. Have you never taken a course in Anthropology or Biology?

     The funny part is that he is evidently married to a geologist.

But true. She is old  🌏. Astronomy tends to favor young earth however.

Huh?  Even young-Earth creationist astronomers like Jason Lisle acknowledge that the distant starlight problem poses a significant difficulty for a young universe model.  

Anyway, for me, I'm definitely a fan of the gap theory (often called the gap principle) - as there is too much scientific evidence contradicting a young Earth, and the exegesis makes sense with it.

Is that the one where God creates, destroys, and re-creates everything, and fossils are from the first creation?

Yes, I think that the "Earth was without form and void" refers to the time on the Earth over geological eons.  During this time at some point also occurred the rebellion of 1/3 of the angels led by Satan.  Then God remade the Earth "anew" (and I believe that creation referred to a mass extinction event, though I can't be totally sure) and life was breathed into Adam.  I believe that humans were created in the special image of God, but this was done in the body of an evolved ape-like ancestor, based on DNA similarity.   The exact cosmological details are known by God, but I generally accept the scientific consensus with regard to these questions, with the exception of the fact that I hold to a rather strict view of monogenism. 
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Greatest I am
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2016, 09:35:46 AM »

I think the question is perhaps backwards. I believe that it is our role to discern the nature of the universe, its creation, and through that God's relationship to humans. Discernment is a neverending process and continually reveals new facts. So today we can speak of a universe that dates to 13.8 Gya, and Earth to 4.5 Gya. We can speak of an evolutionary process at the molecular level involving changes to DNA. I believe we will continue to discern new facts about the universe and life on Earth, some of which will supplant facts we currently accept.

How can we have a relationship to an absentee God who does not even speak to us long enough to tell us which of the myriad of Gods on our menu is the real one?

Regards
DL
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muon2
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2016, 11:41:31 AM »

I think the question is perhaps backwards. I believe that it is our role to discern the nature of the universe, its creation, and through that God's relationship to humans. Discernment is a neverending process and continually reveals new facts. So today we can speak of a universe that dates to 13.8 Gya, and Earth to 4.5 Gya. We can speak of an evolutionary process at the molecular level involving changes to DNA. I believe we will continue to discern new facts about the universe and life on Earth, some of which will supplant facts we currently accept.

How can we have a relationship to an absentee God who does not even speak to us long enough to tell us which of the myriad of Gods on our menu is the real one?

Regards
DL

Your question implies that God speaks in ways like you and I might speak to each other. I wouldn't accept that assumption, and I claim no great knowledge as to what is and isn't God speaking. Who am I to say that God isn't speaking to us over many lifetimes, revealing more as time goes on. That's why I stressed discernment, since I do believe that discernment involves trying to understand the way in which God speaks to us.
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Enduro
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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2016, 04:02:26 PM »

Young Earth, but I do recognize that they're some evidence in favor of the other choices.

Do you see your bible as evidence given that it begins with a talking serpent and a God who cannot seem to get creation right?

By that I mean that he screwed up heaven with Satan, he screwed up Eden by having to murder A & E by neglect and locking away what would have kept t5hem alive, the tree of life, and finally God could not control his own sons of God and had to genocide almost the whole earth to reboot the system.

Not a great record for a God. Right?

Regards
DL

God didn't do those things. Men did, and God created them with free will because of His love for us.

Don't blame problems on Him when the driving force behind those acts were the hearts of men.

Regards
Enduro, because signing your name is cool now.
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Tiger front
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« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2016, 01:01:03 AM »

Theistic Evolucionist, because we know that Earth is old and there was evolution.
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Greatest I am
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« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2016, 01:59:08 PM »

I think the question is perhaps backwards. I believe that it is our role to discern the nature of the universe, its creation, and through that God's relationship to humans. Discernment is a neverending process and continually reveals new facts. So today we can speak of a universe that dates to 13.8 Gya, and Earth to 4.5 Gya. We can speak of an evolutionary process at the molecular level involving changes to DNA. I believe we will continue to discern new facts about the universe and life on Earth, some of which will supplant facts we currently accept.

How can we have a relationship to an absentee God who does not even speak to us long enough to tell us which of the myriad of Gods on our menu is the real one?

Regards
DL

Your question implies that God speaks in ways like you and I might speak to each other. I wouldn't accept that assumption, and I claim no great knowledge as to what is and isn't God speaking. Who am I to say that God isn't speaking to us over many lifetimes, revealing more as time goes on. That's why I stressed discernment, since I do believe that discernment involves trying to understand the way in which God speaks to us.

Seems you are seeking Gnosis.

Look within, as Jesus preached and you might find.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Think of it as seeking your Father, as in Father Complex.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_complex

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

Regards
DL
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muon2
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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2016, 04:37:02 PM »
« Edited: October 24, 2016, 04:44:42 PM by muon2 »

I think the question is perhaps backwards. I believe that it is our role to discern the nature of the universe, its creation, and through that God's relationship to humans. Discernment is a neverending process and continually reveals new facts. So today we can speak of a universe that dates to 13.8 Gya, and Earth to 4.5 Gya. We can speak of an evolutionary process at the molecular level involving changes to DNA. I believe we will continue to discern new facts about the universe and life on Earth, some of which will supplant facts we currently accept.

How can we have a relationship to an absentee God who does not even speak to us long enough to tell us which of the myriad of Gods on our menu is the real one?

Regards
DL

Your question implies that God speaks in ways like you and I might speak to each other. I wouldn't accept that assumption, and I claim no great knowledge as to what is and isn't God speaking. Who am I to say that God isn't speaking to us over many lifetimes, revealing more as time goes on. That's why I stressed discernment, since I do believe that discernment involves trying to understand the way in which God speaks to us.

Seems you are seeking Gnosis.

Look within, as Jesus preached and you might find.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Think of it as seeking your Father, as in Father Complex.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_complex

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

Regards
DL


I believe knowledge is found in the universe around us as well as within.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
    no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.

And Paul writes on this as well.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
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Greatest I am
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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2016, 04:52:15 PM »

Quote
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How can we have a relationship to an absentee God who does not even speak to us long enough to tell us which of the myriad of Gods on our menu is the real one?

Regards
DL
[/quote]

Your question implies that God speaks in ways like you and I might speak to each other. I wouldn't accept that assumption, and I claim no great knowledge as to what is and isn't God speaking. Who am I to say that God isn't speaking to us over many lifetimes, revealing more as time goes on. That's why I stressed discernment, since I do believe that discernment involves trying to understand the way in which God speaks to us.
[/quote]

Seems you are seeking Gnosis.

Look within, as Jesus preached and you might find.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Think of it as seeking your Father, as in Father Complex.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_complex

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

Regards
DL

[/quote]

I believe knowledge is found in the universe around us as well as within.[/quote]

Absolutely, if you are seeing what is true.

Here is what I think is true.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”


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This seems to bolster my point above.

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[/quote]

Idol worshipers, which includes most Christians and Muslims do have cause when they have decided to swallow all the lies that their priests, preachers and imams feed them on a steady diet.

Regards
DL
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muon2
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« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2016, 08:47:27 PM »

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be or an ugly and imperfect world?

I see neither. Your exercise is to me a false dichotomy. I see a universe governed by laws, some of which we know and some of which we do not. That doesn't make it evolve towards perfection, since the laws known and unknown are already in place. The universe evolves according to those laws, but that makes it beautiful and yet imperfect.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2016, 12:09:38 AM »

Darwinian, which is totally compatible with the believe that the Universe was created by some form of higher consciousness.
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Greatest I am
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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2016, 09:41:55 AM »

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be or an ugly and imperfect world?

I see neither. Your exercise is to me a false dichotomy. I see a universe governed by laws, some of which we know and some of which we do not. That doesn't make it evolve towards perfection, since the laws known and unknown are already in place. The universe evolves according to those laws, but that makes it beautiful and yet imperfect.

So to you, the universe following it's laws is somehow short of evolving perfection. Ok.

Which universal law should we not follow to improve what is?

Regards
DL
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« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2016, 09:51:16 AM »

Darwinian, which is totally compatible with the believe that the Universe was created by some form of higher consciousness.

Compatible, I do not think so.

Darwin would say that nature would or could never evolve to having talking serpents and donkeys or water walking men.

Regards
DL 
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2016, 12:51:39 PM »

Darwinian, which is totally compatible with the believe that the Universe was created by some form of higher consciousness.

Compatible, I do not think so.

Darwin would say that nature would or could never evolve to having talking serpents and donkeys or water walking men.

Regards
DL 

What the  does any of that have to do with rejecting the idea that the physical universe created itself?

Regards,

Someone who doesn't only think in black and white terms and post on Atlas strictly while on acid.
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muon2
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« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2016, 02:55:46 PM »

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be or an ugly and imperfect world?

I see neither. Your exercise is to me a false dichotomy. I see a universe governed by laws, some of which we know and some of which we do not. That doesn't make it evolve towards perfection, since the laws known and unknown are already in place. The universe evolves according to those laws, but that makes it beautiful and yet imperfect.

So to you, the universe following it's laws is somehow short of evolving perfection. Ok.

Which universal law should we not follow to improve what is?

Regards
DL

It's not a question of not following universal laws.

As we currently understand the laws of the universe we know that there are laws that are inherently chaotic. I don't mean chaotic in a totally random sense, but in a mathematical sense that microscopic perturbations that we cannot control may lead to macroscopic fluctuations that may be perceived by us as diminishments rather than improvements. That doesn't mean we should strive less to improve what we can, but it does mean that we should understand that those improvements we make intrinsically lack permanence.

We also understand the laws of the universe as putting constraints on what we can know about the universe. These constraints include the lack of the very information that would otherwise imply that we could control those microscopic fluctuations. The constraints are not hypothetical, but can be measured as we can measure the electrical charges moving in a transistor or the energy from a distant star.

Given this understanding of the laws of the universe I do not see a universe of evolving perfection. I see a beautiful evolving universe that must be imperfect.
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Santander
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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2016, 03:39:07 PM »

Formerly some form of evolutionist, now some form of creationist, not YEC but may end up there.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2016, 06:57:02 PM »

There isn't a scale. That's not how this works.
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Greatest I am
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« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2016, 06:03:32 PM »

Yes there is a scale.

A scale called supernatural and fantasy and intelligent people will not pass that scale of lack of intelligence.

Yet people cannot even rate a perfectly evolving natural system as perfect.

Regards
DL
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2016, 03:38:15 PM »

If you're going to insist on your own intellectual superiority you might want to learn how to write in a manner that doesn't come across as borderline illiterate Smiley
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White Trash
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« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2016, 04:03:53 PM »

If you're going to insist on your own intellectual superiority you might want to learn how to write in a manner that doesn't come across as borderline illiterate Smiley
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RFayette
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« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2016, 04:09:49 PM »

If you're going to insist on your own intellectual superiority you might want to learn how to write in a manner that doesn't come across as borderline illiterate Smiley
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2016, 04:16:13 PM »

Is "I don't know" a valid answer? Tbh, I haven't really looked into this in depth and just have a vaguely theistic evolution position. As I get older, I find science excites me less and less and history excites me more and more, so I may never dig into it. Huh
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