HB 2016-1041 - Increasing the Vice Presidents Power Amendment (TABLED)

[Anna Komnene]

If you want to increase the role of  the VP, who is president of the congress, why not rewriting the rules and giving the following duty: "when a piece of legislation has passed one of the chamber and is sent to the other one, the President of Congress administers that", that was the goal of the reform of the VP powers, but unfortunately no chamber modified the rules in order to make that happen.

I mean I guess we could do that in an ordinary resolution, but I'm not sure how it makes the VP any more exciting to make them the equivalent of a congressional page.

[windjammer]

If you want to increase the role of  the VP, who is president of the congress, why not rewriting the rules and giving the following duty: "when a piece of legislation has passed one of the chamber and is sent to the other one, the President of Congress administers that", that was the goal of the reform of the VP powers, but unfortunately no chamber modified the rules in order to make that happen.

That was what the members of the constitutional convention intended to make for the VP

I mean I guess we could do that in an ordinary resolution, but I'm not sure how it makes the VP any more exciting to make them the equivalent of a congressional page.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

If you want to increase the role of  the VP, who is president of the congress, why not rewriting the rules and giving the following duty: "when a piece of legislation has passed one of the chamber and is sent to the other one, the President of Congress administers that", that was the goal of the reform of the VP powers, but unfortunately no chamber modified the rules in order to make that happen.

This. If you read the Constitution, you'll see that this is how the framers intended things to work - unfortunately, the Speaker/PPT effectively usurped this responsibility when the rules were being written.

[NeverAgain]

Extending debate on this for a bit btw.

[windjammer]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=238740.0

That was the rules I wrote making the VP more powerful. But unfortunately, as Truman said, the Speaker/PPT didn't take into account my plan at all and chose to keep the exact same rules than before, without any modification.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If anyone would like to sponsor it as amendment, that would definitely increase the Vice Presidents Power, and respect the will of the members of the Constitutional Convention (if the VP became President of Congress, that was because he was intended to have a role of coordinator between the 2 chambers.

[windjammer]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Regarding my post above, it basically makes the VP the coordinator between the 2 chambers, when a bill is passed by the senate, the one who administers this bill in the House: the VP.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Times like this I miss being a Senator and could sponsor stuff for people.


The simple fact of the matter is Windjammer is right. The priority was on simplicity and just like with Nix in late 2015, if you take simplicity (which is important, don't get me wrong) to its absolute ends, you end up cutting the Vice President completely out of the picture. Of course if one supports abolishing the Vice Presidency it is fine to do that, but if you don't you have to find that balance.

I wrote up as one of those "shuttle texts in September 2014 (as in I shuttled them on a flash drive to a neighbor to post them)", a rules alternative that cut 61% of the length from the original OSPR, but preserved the roll of the Vice President and other things. Nix's cut just 12% more than mine and in the process returned us to the pre-March 2013 status quo of inactive Vice Presidents. I think we can afford that 12% extra length, to ensure the adequate involvement of the Vice President as President of Congress.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yeah, this is definitely a tricky position to grapple with.  A lot depends on the vision of the president and vice president about the kind of administration they want to have.  While I understand why it might help to give the VP some more constitutional powers, I'm not sure it's a good idea to constrain the sort of creative thinking that goes on in a presidential campaign.  Part of the neat thing about Atlasia is how each administration kind of handles things differently.  I've never been an executive, so I don't have that first hand experience, but the way Atlasia is set up, it puts a lot more onus on the executive to be creative about the kind of tone they want to set for their administration.  They aren't just in charge of making decisions on whether to sign bills, but they are also in charge of getting people active and making the game fun and interesting.  In that sense, their role is a lot more open-ended and difficult than being a legislator.

One good thing about the old OSPR was that the role of the Vice President was not explicit, it was the product of him being President of the Senate and the PPT being subordinate to him. That meant that the PPT, in this case me, could each time the Senate started determine with the Vice President, which slots they would administer. We had slots that were natural ones, Emergency, Foreign Policy, Forum Affairs, and a misc one that were all given to the VP eventually, but each Senate the VP could determine his level of involvement. Perhaps it was a combination of those unfortunate souls (Duke, DemPGH, Matt, Cincy and Jammer) falling victim to my wily charm to get them to cooperate with my crazy idea of an active VP, but somehow it worked and worked well. Four out of those five were active, something that has never been matched before our since.

Either way, the flexibility was much larger ironically in this particular area only, in the old clunky OSPR, than in Windjammer's present text. And thus if a VP wanted to be a cabinet and have little to do with the Senate, he could shift slots back to the PPT and the next VP could take them back. However, I have learned much to my chagrin, if you don't spell out a task, chances are officeholders will be inactive especially once you no longer have someone guiding them in a particular direction with a constant stream of PMs about what needs to happen today.

So perhaps flexibility is the necessary trade-off for awareness.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Is it ironic that this is one of the bills that fell through the cracks.

Poor Jambles!

[Mike Thick]

I really think we should go for Windjammer's plan here. It's what the people writing the Constitution intended, and at the very least it would keep the VP involved in the game.

I wouldn't be opposed to adding things on top of this, though.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I would like to reiterate my support for Chief Justice Windjammer's amendment; this is a necessary change for to realize the role of the vice president as President of the Congress as defined by the Constitution, and I hope that the House will see fit to adopt it.

[NeverAgain]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If anyone would like to sponsor it as amendment, that would definitely increase the Vice Presidents Power, and respect the will of the members of the Constitutional Convention (if the VP became President of Congress, that was because he was intended to have a role of coordinator between the 2 chambers.
[/quote]

Looks great, will sponsor, but first we'll vote on this amendment for 24-hours by Ms. Siren.

[Goldwater]

AYE

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

Aye

[Anna Komnene]

Aye

[NeverAgain]

Aye.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This is not the only problem we have to deal with though. There are portions of the rules for both chambers that actually conflict with the present constitution, at least in my interpretation (both linked in the noticeboard now, along with the Article 3 of the Constitution).

Once this passes (and is ratified), I would recommend amending the rules for both chambers to comply with this new text and also establish a clear, automatic line of succession for both the Speaker and PPT so there is no question about who should do what if one disappears and both chambers are always moving forward.

[Enduro]

Aye

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Bit of a recommendation NeverAgain. Posting a long text, then a direction to vote on something else is a great way to confuse the hell out of members as to what is being voted on.

[NeverAgain]

Bit of a recommendation NeverAgain. Posting a long text, then a direction to vote on something else is a great way to confuse the hell out of members as to what is being voted on.

Kay. Seemed pretty clear to me. As I did post a link to the amendment, but yeah, I will take that into account.

Anyways the Amendment passes.

And now we'll vote on THIS Amendment for 24 hours:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

From the most recently adopted amendment:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I would like to point out that if the proposed Constitutional Amendment is ratified with this clause intact, it would effectively strip the Secretary of the Interior of most of the new powers vested in them by Executive Order 39-005. Prior to the passage of that Order, the Interior Department was a chronically inactive and effectively powerless outpost of the executive branch that rarely, if ever, contributed anything valuable to the game. The recently-bestowed prosecutorial and law enforcement powers changed that by giving the Secretary an actual job to do; it was these powers that allowed me to taking the leading role in implementing EFMPA and that informed my actions to address the crisis of government in Fremont. Without those powers, the Department of the Interior will be once more reduced to an forgotten office with significance equivalent to that of the Postmaster General, and no politico worth his salt will have any interest in the job.

[NeverAgain]

From the most recently adopted amendment:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I would like to point out that if the proposed Constitutional Amendment is ratified with this clause intact, it would effectively strip the Secretary of the Interior of most of the new powers vested in them by Executive Order 39-005. Prior to the passage of that Order, the Interior Department was a chronically inactive and effectively powerless outpost of the executive branch that rarely, if ever, contributed anything valuable to the game. The recently-bestowed prosecutorial and law enforcement powers changed that by giving the Secretary an actual job to do; it was these powers that allowed me to taking the leading role in implementing EFMPA and that informed my actions to address the crisis of government in Fremont. Without those powers, the Department of the Interior will be once more reduced to an forgotten office with significance equivalent to that of the Postmaster General, and no politico worth his salt will have any interest in the job.

Okay. I'll amend it, and we'll hopefully clarify that after the WJ amendment.

[Anna Komnene]

@SecretaryTruman: Do you have an argument for how that's not also the case for the Vice President?  I actually disagree that the interior doesn't have anything to do.  It's actually pretty similar to SoS, but it just depends on personal initiative to do things.  The interior department covers *the entire* domestic government... that's pretty much every IRL US department apart from State and maybe Defense.

[NeverAgain]

@SecretaryTruman: Do you have an argument for how that's not also the case for the Vice President?  I actually disagree that the interior doesn't have anything to do.  It's actually pretty similar to SoS, but it just depends on personal initiative to do things.  The interior department covers *the entire* domestic government... that's pretty much every IRL US department apart from State and maybe Defense.

I think that the ability to be AG, really helps define and establish the cabinet position, as Truman was saying. Giving that role entirely to the VP, instead of the SotI, which has been agreed to hold the majority if not all of the IRL cabinet positions except State and arguably Defense, would likely not allow for the continued ability for the SotI to push for nation legal and legislative reforms, as has been agreed under Executive Order 39-005 for them to do. Of course, I do disagree that the Secretary is entirely fruitless without the AG position, but it does lose powers so vital to it's preservation.

After we vote on the WJ Amendment, we'll start to look at the VP in comparison to cabinet positions, but also try to nail down what (and how much) ability of the VP to assert themselves as President of the Congress.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

@SecretaryTruman: Do you have an argument for how that's not also the case for the Vice President?  I actually disagree that the interior doesn't have anything to do.  It's actually pretty similar to SoS, but it just depends on personal initiative to do things.  The interior department covers *the entire* domestic government... that's pretty much every IRL US department apart from State and maybe Defense.

Thanks for the question, Siren; though I'm afraid I have to disagree. Oddly enough, I actually think what you said about "personal initiative" is advice more appropriate for the vice president than for a member of the cabinet. Keep in mind I've spent quite a bit of time in the executive branch for the last six months: I've been interim president, I've served both in the State Department and the Interior Department, and I've had the pleasure of working in close quarters with my predecessors in this office; and from those experiences, I came to understand that the Interior Department has so often been inactive and irrelevant because it lacked what every other office in the game has: clarity of purpose.

You mention the State Department; let me assure you, as a former Secretary of State and the current Secretary of the Interior, those two offices are nothing alike. The SoS has a very narrow and clearly defined purpose: they are to manage international affairs. That meant that when I became Secretary of State in July, I had a pretty good idea of what I was supposed to do: I negotiated treaties with the GM, I responded to diplomatic and national security crisis, and I advised Congress and the president on foreign policy. Of course, I had to take the initiative to actually do those things - so you're correct to say that personal initiative goes a long way. But the clarity of purpose present in the State Department (i.e. that basic understanding of what a SoS does all day) it what gave my initiative somewhere to go. Prior to the passage of E.O. 39-005, the Interior Department didn't have that kind of clarity. Without a clearly defined set of powers, the breadth of responsibility you described is actually a curse. In real life, the cabinet offices overseen by the SotI spend much of their time implementing federal regulations. If I were to try to replicate that sort of activity in Atlasia, it would mean making a lot of long, technical posts that only I (and maybe Yankee) would read while pretending to visit fictitious locales to inspect an energy plant or whatnot. That is exactly the sort of superficial "activity" I pledged to avoid when I was confirmed as SotI, because it does nothing to add to the game as a whole. Sure, I could debate legislation in Congress (and you'll notice I do that), but if all the SotI ever does is write and argue for bills, then he's not really a cabinet officer - he's a congressman. In that case, there's really no reason for the Interior Department to exist as a playable entity at all.

It is necessary to ask what role the Interior Department plays in the governing process. The answer, as you correctly state, is to implement federal domestic policy as part of the executive branch; it only makes sense, therefore, for the Secretary of the Interior to take on the responsibilities of the IRL Attorney General, for it is impossible to separate the duty to uphold the law from the responsibility of defending it before the bench. Furthermore, as Never Again so aptly put it, "the ability to be AG really helps define and establish the cabinet position." These powers provide the the clarity of purpose that this department previously lacked, and are a logical extension of the Secretary's statutory powers, allowing the SotI to interact with the game in a unique and meaningful way.

Of couse, the vice presidency is in need of clarity as well, which is why I support amending the House and Senate rules to realize the VP's role as President of the Congress; but I don't think stripping the Interior Department of its prosecutorial power is the best way to go about this.

TL;DR: I basically agree with what NeverAgain said. Making the SotI the in-game equivalent of the U.S. Attorney General makes a world of difference from the perspective of someone who actually holds the position, and has served the executive branch in one office or another for nearly six months. Reassigning those powers to the VP would make it much, much more difficult for the SotI to interact with the game in a meaningful way; rather than tacking on powers poached from the cabinet, I would prefer to see the vice president realized as President of the Congress per Article III, Section 1 of the Fourth Constitution.