Evangelicals without Standards

[Torie]

It has surprised me that some Evangelical leaders are so seemingly nonchalant about Trump's character flaws, some of which should be hot button items for them. They have made a very Faustian bargain. So this article from the editor of the National Review caught my attention.

[Person Man]

If Hillary wins, this is the end of the Reagan-Bush Republican Party. If the Donald wins, its the start of the Paeocon Alt-Right Republican Party. Basically the pre 1896 Democratic Party.

[Yank2133]

It has surprised me that some Evangelical leaders are so seemingly nonchalant about Trump;s character flaws, some of which should be hot button items for them. They have made a very Faustian bargain. So this article from the editor of the National Review caught my attention.

Why should this surprise you?

They have never cared about morality and character. It was just a nice talking point to use against Bill Clinton, the Kennedys etc. The truth is they are just as politically driven and craven as say Mitch McConnell, the only difference is one owns up to their sliminess, while the other hides behind bible.

[ProudModerate2]

This thread has FuzzyBear's name written all-over-it.
(PS: Where is FuzzyBear anyway ? Ever since the MeowGate and groping allegations came-out, he has suddenly become absent.)

[Maxwell]

That's been a thing for long long time.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Plenty of Evangelicals (myself included) will not be voting for this man.

[BoAtlantis]

It has surprised me that some Evangelical leaders are so seemingly nonchalant about Trump's character flaws, some of which should be hot button items for them. They have made a very Faustian bargain. So this article from the editor of the National Review caught my attention.

I'm sure even you know the answer to this. Party identification is the biggest reason people vote the way they do. Republicans have never been the more moral party; just the more critical party based on their domain of morals. If there is any election that proved people are willing to break their own rules to forgive personal affront and vote by their tradition, it's this year.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

did anybody see the title and think Torie had founded a really niche dating site?

[Torie]

I understand the comments, but I am not one to assume the worst about Evangelicals. When it comes to religion, I prefer to give folks a lot of space to believe whatever they want, without deprecating them. I am just surprised that some of the high profile ones are so political, that it seems to "trump" everything else. The older I get, the more I believe that politics trumps relatively little in the end. Far more important, is having good judgement and a good temperament (folks with a good temperament don't typically mistreat folks among other things), and of course being honest, where as to the honesty bit, both of the major party candidates are so horribly wanting.

[Torie]

did anybody see the title and think Torie had founded a really niche dating site?

Your mind is even more filthy than mine apparently. Sad!

[BoAtlantis]

I understand the comments, but I am not one to assume the worst about Evangelicals. When it comes to religion, I prefer to give folks a lot of space to believe whatever they want, without deprecating them. I am just surprised that some of the high profile ones are so political, that it seems to "trump" everything else. The older I get, the more I believe that politics trumps relatively little in the end. Far more important, is having good judgement and a good temperament (folks with a good temperament don't typically mistreat folks among other things), and of course being honest, where as to the honesty bit, both are major party candidates are so horribly wanting.

You shouldn't always take what people say at a face value. Psychologists would tell you that people's words are highly unreliable in certain things. People are terrible at introspection and analysis of their subconscious minds.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This election might destroy the Religious Right's credibility once and for all. I should be happy about it, but I can't bring myself to.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I think Russell Moore is more representative of Evangelicalism going forward than Falwell Jr.

[Xing]

You see, Trump has an (R) next to his name, so all is forgiven.

[RFayette 🇻🇦]

I think Russell Moore is more representative of Evangelicalism going forward than Falwell Jr.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

This thread has FuzzyBear's name written all-over-it.
(PS: Where is FuzzyBear anyway ? Ever since the MeowGate and groping allegations came-out, he has suddenly become absent.)

I've been taking care of a number of family matters.  I have been working cleaning up some minor hurricane damage.  I have been attending to matters at my employment that are hurricane-related.

Atlas is not my life.  I know something about working full time, committing myself to church, family, and profession.  I'll be kind and suggest that a goodly number of folks here haven't gotten around to that lately.  If they had, they'd probably have a different perspective on a number of things.

[ApatheticAustrian]

you can't make this up

[Associate Justice PiT]

     It has been known for a long time now that your typical Evangelical lacks whatever concern for moral fiber they claim to possess.

[Speed of Sound]

No cognitive dissonance is finer than claiming moral superiority while voting for a lying, racist, misogynistic, bullying serial sexual assaulter. It is, at least, the most American of cognitive dissonances.

[Yank2133]

you can't make this up

They are frauds and hopefully this election destroys what was left of their credibility.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

I understand the comments, but I am not one to assume the worst about Evangelicals. When it comes to religion, I prefer to give folks a lot of space to believe whatever they want, without deprecating them. I am just surprised that some of the high profile ones are so political, that it seems to "trump" everything else. The older I get, the more I believe that politics trumps relatively little in the end. Far more important, is having good judgement and a good temperament (folks with a good temperament don't typically mistreat folks among other things), and of course being honest, where as to the honesty bit, both of the major party candidates are so horribly wanting.

Torie, you have one of the more reasonable approaches to this issue.  Perhaps you will appreciate what I have to post here, even as you disagree.

I belong to a church that is Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and Pentecostal.  Part of our doctrine is that Holiness is the Standard that God holds for His People in terms of personal conduct; that there ought to be a noticeable difference between the conduct of a Believer and the conduct of folks who are in The World.  The Bible is not subtle about those standards, and those who read Scripture ought to know how a Christian is to respond to any given situation.

Just about everyone in Church I know is voting for Donald Trump, and that includes at least some of the black members of my congregation.  None of them are confused about Trump's moral standards; they know he's a womanizer.  My wife is the closest thing I know to the Biblical model of a perfect person (trust me on this); she abhors profane language to the point of merely calling someone an a-hole (let alone dropping f-bombs), was sexually abstinent from the day her first husband left her to the day we got married (10 years), with no live-in boyfriends in between.  She's for Trump; more so than I am.  (I had a spasm of saying I'd vote for Gary Johnson; now, I'm voting for Trump and praying for Faithless Electors.  "The things that are impossible with man are possible with God.")  Most of the red avatars would, if they knew my wife (who was, like me, a 2012 Obama voter) be utterly perplexed as to why she's for Trump.

The reason she is for Trump is the reason most conservative Christians see Trump as much preferable to Clinton.  They see Trump as a person who's a jerk in his personal life, but who will advocate policies that reinforce the place of the Church in American life.  They see Hillary as someone who would actively work to undermine the Church, force churches to accept gay staff members and conduct same-sex marriages, despite Biblical doctrines.  And this was before the recent revelations in John Podesta's e-mails about a "Catholic Spring" where folks would actually infiltrate the Catholic Church and actively work to change its doctrines to where they line up with the Democratic Party's positions.  Trump may live an immoral lifestyle, but Hillary, actively, wishes to suppress the Church, silence those that disagree with her, and actively change doctrine.  In that respect, Hillary is more than immoral; her actions embody the Spirit of the Antichrist.  (No, I'm not saying Hillary's the Antichrist.)  She is an actual enemy of the Body of Christ; she wishes to persecute believers for their beliefs.  Ask the cake-bakers.  (Although I wonder how folks would feel here if a cake-baker refused to bake a "Trump:  Make America Great Again" cake, eh?)

It's very much a case of the enemy of ones enemy being one's friend.  Trump's not a Christian example, but he isn't an enemy of Christianity, either.  Hillary is an enemy of Christianity, at least in the eyes of just about all of my church peers.  They see her as someone who would usher in persecution of the Church.  And, truthfully, after seeing Podesta's e-mails, I don't think that's an unreasonable conclusion.  This, by the way, is a YUGE difference between Hillary and Obama.

The other part of this is that Evangelicals are intensely patriotic, nationalistic, and anti-Globalistic.  They love America because they see America as a nation established by Christian principles, and they view preserving that aspect of America as something that works to keep God's Protective Hand on America.  I am not one with an Old Testament view of God, that judged nations and destroyed them personally, but I do believe that God gives Man Free Will, and he will not always shield rebellious man from the consequences of his foolish actions.  (Indeed, he's not shielded Donald Trump or Bill Clinton in such a manner.)  Trump, however, respects the view of America that Evangelicals share.  Hillary does not; she wants to "transform" America into her vision, and her vision is NOT seen as a vision compatible with Christian standards.

Yes, Evangelicals have made a Faustian bargain.  It's the best they can do, given the circumstances.  I hope this illustrates why this is so.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

The problem is, if somehow Trump wins, we will be associated with all the awful things he'll do as President.  No one will associate us with Hillary's almost certainly disastrous presidency.

[Torie]

Wonderful post by you there, Fuzzy Bear. Thanks so much. I understand what you said, and appreciate it, even as I disagree because I come to the table with such profoundly different assumptions. Fair enough. Wouldn't it be grand, if we were all more civil about this, myself included? But you have set the example to follow.

[SirMuxALot]

Go back and re-read this thread from the top, substituting some ethnicity or other religion in place of all the synonyms for evangelical/Christian/religious right, etc.

Pretty shocking, huh?

Should it be so broadly acceptable to stereotype and generalize this way about *any* group of people?

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Wonderful post by you there, Fuzzy Bear. Thanks so much. I understand what you said, and appreciate it, even as I disagree because I come to the table with such profoundly different assumptions. Fair enough. Wouldn't it be grand, if we were all more civil about this, myself included? But you have set the example to follow.

I appreciate your kind words.

As you can imagine, Hillary's "Deplorables" comment is highly offensive to me.  Oddly enough, it was Tim Kaine who, in debate quoted Scripture:  "Out of the wellsprings of the heart, the mouth speaks."  He was saying this about Trump, and it certainly applies to Trump, but there is also no reason I shouldn't apply this to Hillary Clinton, and no reason I shouldn't view her "apology" skeptically, especially in light of Podesta's e-mails coming to light.

Folks like me are doing the best we can with what we have to work with.  I'm willing to extend that to everyone here.  It saddens me that not everyone is capable of doing the same, and others simply don't care to.  I'm grateful that you're one that can grasp that fact of this surreal election year.