Evangelicals without Standards

[RI]

I understand the comments, but I am not one to assume the worst about Evangelicals. When it comes to religion, I prefer to give folks a lot of space to believe whatever they want, without deprecating them. I am just surprised that some of the high profile ones are so political, that it seems to "trump" everything else. The older I get, the more I believe that politics trumps relatively little in the end. Far more important, is having good judgement and a good temperament (folks with a good temperament don't typically mistreat folks among other things), and of course being honest, where as to the honesty bit, both of the major party candidates are so horribly wanting.

Torie, you have one of the more reasonable approaches to this issue.  Perhaps you will appreciate what I have to post here, even as you disagree.

I belong to a church that is Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and Pentecostal.  Part of our doctrine is that Holiness is the Standard that God holds for His People in terms of personal conduct; that there ought to be a noticeable difference between the conduct of a Believer and the conduct of folks who are in The World.  The Bible is not subtle about those standards, and those who read Scripture ought to know how a Christian is to respond to any given situation.

Just about everyone in Church I know is voting for Donald Trump, and that includes at least some of the black members of my congregation.  None of them are confused about Trump's moral standards; they know he's a womanizer.  My wife is the closest thing I know to the Biblical model of a perfect person (trust me on this); she abhors profane language to the point of merely calling someone an a-hole (let alone dropping f-bombs), was sexually abstinent from the day her first husband left her to the day we got married (10 years), with no live-in boyfriends in between.  She's for Trump; more so than I am.  (I had a spasm of saying I'd vote for Gary Johnson; now, I'm voting for Trump and praying for Faithless Electors.  "The things that are impossible with man are possible with God.")  Most of the red avatars would, if they knew my wife (who was, like me, a 2012 Obama voter) be utterly perplexed as to why she's for Trump.

The reason she is for Trump is the reason most conservative Christians see Trump as much preferable to Clinton.  They see Trump as a person who's a jerk in his personal life, but who will advocate policies that reinforce the place of the Church in American life.  They see Hillary as someone who would actively work to undermine the Church, force churches to accept gay staff members and conduct same-sex marriages, despite Biblical doctrines.  And this was before the recent revelations in John Podesta's e-mails about a "Catholic Spring" where folks would actually infiltrate the Catholic Church and actively work to change its doctrines to where they line up with the Democratic Party's positions.  Trump may live an immoral lifestyle, but Hillary, actively, wishes to suppress the Church, silence those that disagree with her, and actively change doctrine.  In that respect, Hillary is more than immoral; her actions embody the Spirit of the Antichrist.  (No, I'm not saying Hillary's the Antichrist.)  She is an actual enemy of the Body of Christ; she wishes to persecute believers for their beliefs.  Ask the cake-bakers.  (Although I wonder how folks would feel here if a cake-baker refused to bake a "Trump:  Make America Great Again" cake, eh?)

It's very much a case of the enemy of ones enemy being one's friend.  Trump's not a Christian example, but he isn't an enemy of Christianity, either.  Hillary is an enemy of Christianity, at least in the eyes of just about all of my church peers.  They see her as someone who would usher in persecution of the Church.  And, truthfully, after seeing Podesta's e-mails, I don't think that's an unreasonable conclusion.  This, by the way, is a YUGE difference between Hillary and Obama.

The other part of this is that Evangelicals are intensely patriotic, nationalistic, and anti-Globalistic.  They love America because they see America as a nation established by Christian principles, and they view preserving that aspect of America as something that works to keep God's Protective Hand on America.  I am not one with an Old Testament view of God, that judged nations and destroyed them personally, but I do believe that God gives Man Free Will, and he will not always shield rebellious man from the consequences of his foolish actions.  (Indeed, he's not shielded Donald Trump or Bill Clinton in such a manner.)  Trump, however, respects the view of America that Evangelicals share.  Hillary does not; she wants to "transform" America into her vision, and her vision is NOT seen as a vision compatible with Christian standards.

Yes, Evangelicals have made a Faustian bargain.  It's the best they can do, given the circumstances.  I hope this illustrates why this is so.

As a Catholic, I agree with the vast majority of this post.

[Fuzzy Bear]

You see, Trump has an (R) next to his name, so all is forgiven.

It's forgiven because Jesus paid the price on the Cross.

He paid the price for Hillary, Bill, Podesta, et al.

"Father, forgive them; they know not what they do."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Go back and re-read this thread from the top, substituting some ethnicity or other religion in place of all the synonyms for evangelical/Christian/religious right, etc.

Pretty shocking, huh?

Should it be so broadly acceptable to stereotype and generalize this way about *any* group of people?

I'm an evangelical Christian and I'm not offended.

[Gustaf]

The idea that it makes sense for a Christian to ally with an utterly immoral evil person who consistently lies because he has promised to give you favours is pretty dumb.

I'll also note that people like Fuzzy Bear are inventing these excuses now because they have to. He was an enthusiastic Trump supporter until it became uncomfortable. Trumpists have always had excuses - they used to claim they were small government conservatives. They might claim they're conservative evangelicals who care about family values. But it's clear at this point that they don't genuinely believe in any of these things. They mostly hate blacks, women and foreigners and vary in the degree to which they can couch that sentiment in more acceptable language.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The idea that it makes sense for a Christian to ally with an utterly immoral evil person who consistently lies because he has promised to give you favours is pretty dumb.

I'll also note that people like Fuzzy Bear are inventing these excuses now because they have to. He was an enthusiastic Trump supporter until it became uncomfortable. Trumpists have always had excuses - they used to claim they were small government conservatives. They might claim they're conservative evangelicals who care about family values. But it's clear at this point that they don't genuinely believe in any of these things. They mostly hate blacks, women and foreigners and vary in the degree to which they can couch that sentiment in more acceptable language.

I've never claimed to be a small government conservative.  I've claimed that there was a large "big government" conservative contingent in the GOP that was unrepresented until Trump came along.

Then again, when it comes to me, you're not interested in facts.

[Gustaf]

The idea that it makes sense for a Christian to ally with an utterly immoral evil person who consistently lies because he has promised to give you favours is pretty dumb.

I'll also note that people like Fuzzy Bear are inventing these excuses now because they have to. He was an enthusiastic Trump supporter until it became uncomfortable. Trumpists have always had excuses - they used to claim they were small government conservatives. They might claim they're conservative evangelicals who care about family values. But it's clear at this point that they don't genuinely believe in any of these things. They mostly hate blacks, women and foreigners and vary in the degree to which they can couch that sentiment in more acceptable language.

I've never claimed to be a small government conservative.  I've claimed that there was a large "big government" conservative contingent in the GOP that was unrepresented until Trump came along.

Then again, when it comes to me, you're not interested in facts.

That part wasn't directed at you but at Trumpists in general. You're all deplorable in different ways. But it's telling that you decided to misinterpret that rather than attempt to defend yourself.

You're a false Christian and I'd guess that it would be painful for you to confront that fact.

[ProudModerate2]

you can't make this up

This is all I need to see.
Great find. Thank you for posting it.
My reaction after reading and analyzing the data presented here ....

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The idea that it makes sense for a Christian to ally with an utterly immoral evil person who consistently lies because he has promised to give you favours is pretty dumb.

I'll also note that people like Fuzzy Bear are inventing these excuses now because they have to. He was an enthusiastic Trump supporter until it became uncomfortable. Trumpists have always had excuses - they used to claim they were small government conservatives. They might claim they're conservative evangelicals who care about family values. But it's clear at this point that they don't genuinely believe in any of these things. They mostly hate blacks, women and foreigners and vary in the degree to which they can couch that sentiment in more acceptable language.

I've never claimed to be a small government conservative.  I've claimed that there was a large "big government" conservative contingent in the GOP that was unrepresented until Trump came along.

Then again, when it comes to me, you're not interested in facts.

That part wasn't directed at you but at Trumpists in general. You're all deplorable in different ways. But it's telling that you decided to misinterpret that rather than attempt to defend yourself.

You're a false Christian and I'd guess that it would be painful for you to confront that fact.

Yes, I think these lyrics are quite fitting again:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Young Conservative]

Cant we all just agree that neither major party candidate is a of the moral standard needed to hold the highest office in the land?

[ApatheticAustrian]

Cant we all just agree that neither major party candidate is a of the moral standard needed to hold the highest office in the land?

out of an absolutist point of view: granted.

with a measured approach: trump seems far scarier, since he promises illiberal stuff outside of the US political spectrum, while everything clinton would do, could be repealed by the next republican presidency.

[Lyin' Steve]

There's a certain segment of the Democratic Party that thinks that religion as a whole is bad, that any hint of Christian-inspired morality, policy, symbolism, language, etc. in American life needs to be purged, and that those who believe in Christianity are foolish.  At least, that's the perception of most Christians on the right.  And let's be fair, there's definitely something to it.

Lately there's been a rise in churches that pander to liberal youth by saying, "we're the cool church.  We're the tolerant church.  Come to us if you're tired of the Republicans in your church."  And you go there and every sermon will be about how God loves whatever minority/LGBT group, or weed.  The two things liberal millennials care about.  It's pretty lame, what's supposed to be a completely separate and very important part of your life (and it is to me), has just become, for a lot of left-leaning youth, just another extension of their oh-so-important political identity.  They can't read the new testament without thinking about how it relates to the 2016 election or whatever.

It's a shame.

[ApatheticAustrian]

i think the bigger point would be in that scenario, that the interpretation of religious wording is in constant flow, changing every few decades in some points and every few hundred years a kind of different paradigm emerges.

as human culture, human values, human laws and human standards change so does the teaching and interpretation of religion.

[RI]

The idea that it makes sense for a Christian to ally with an utterly immoral evil person who consistently lies because he has promised to give you favours is pretty dumb.

I'll also note that people like Fuzzy Bear are inventing these excuses now because they have to. He was an enthusiastic Trump supporter until it became uncomfortable. Trumpists have always had excuses - they used to claim they were small government conservatives. They might claim they're conservative evangelicals who care about family values. But it's clear at this point that they don't genuinely believe in any of these things. They mostly hate blacks, women and foreigners and vary in the degree to which they can couch that sentiment in more acceptable language.

I've never claimed to be a small government conservative.  I've claimed that there was a large "big government" conservative contingent in the GOP that was unrepresented until Trump came along.

Then again, when it comes to me, you're not interested in facts.

That part wasn't directed at you but at Trumpists in general. You're all deplorable in different ways. But it's telling that you decided to misinterpret that rather than attempt to defend yourself.

You're a false Christian and I'd guess that it would be painful for you to confront that fact.

Yes, I think these lyrics are quite fitting again:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

lol at you of all people calling others false Christians...

[Badger]

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

[RI]

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

While true, even heretics can be Christians and saved. We aren't exclusionists.

[ag]

You see, Trump has an (R) next to his name, so all is forgiven.

It's forgiven because Jesus paid the price on the Cross.

I tend to respect religious sentiment. But, frankly, I simply do not believe it, when produced by a Trumpista. It is obvious that every Trump voter would, if he were to find himself on that hill near Jerusalem, happily put a few extra nails through the body of Jesus.

[ApatheticAustrian]

i am theoretically catholic and practically kind of a critical, churchless theist in a broader sense, but....

Evan McMullin is a good man, but in this election he is a fig-leaf, there to assuage the consciences of religious people. God is not fooled.
https://twitter.com/ericmetaxas/status/787654642788405248

texts like that make me feeling sick.

the people who claim to serve god the most, put him into each of their earthly, silly talking points, degrading all possible grace....

[Badger]

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

While true, even heretics can be Christians and saved.

Thanks no. Been there, done that, bought the Rosary. My also ex-Catholic wife and I are quite happy with the protestant church of which I'm consistory president. But thanks for trying to "save" us. as tempting as your zealot-like view of the Church is--one most Catholics I know would disagree with--I'll have to say no .

[RI]

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

While true, even heretics can be Christians and saved.

Thanks no. Been there, done that, bought the Rosary. My also ex-Catholic wife and I are quite happy with the protestant church of which I'm consistory president. But thanks for trying to "save" us. as tempting as your zealot-like view of the Church is--one most Catholics I know would disagree with--I'll have to say no .

Uh, I'm not trying to convert anyone. You're the one who brought up the "one true church" idea. As I said, I'm not an exclusionist, and neither is the Catholic Church. Protestants can be saved as easily as any Christian. Even some atheists can be saved. My beef was with BRTD in particular.

i am theoretically catholic and practically kind of a critical, churchless theist in a broader sense, but....

Evan McMullin is a good man, but in this election he is a fig-leaf, there to assuage the consciences of religious people. God is not fooled.
https://twitter.com/ericmetaxas/status/787654642788405248

texts like that make me feeling sick.

the people who claim to serve god the most, put him into each of their earthly, silly talking points, degrading all possible grace....

Reading that guy's Twitter feed makes him seem pretty close to a single-issue abortion voter. Not hard to see the justification for voting Trump for such a person.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Reading that guy's Twitter feed makes him seem pretty close to a single-issue abortion voter. Not hard to see the justification for voting Trump for such a person.

Trump supports abortion though.

[mark_twain]

I myself am an evangelical Christian voting for Clinton.

I agree with most posters here that it is very disturbing that someone associating themselves with Christianity would support Trump over Clinton, considering the two candidates' behavior and religious practices.

Anyone with common sense (Christian or not) would realize that Trump has many more personal character flaws than Clinton, laid bare to the entire nation over the last several months. This does not come by random chance, but by lifetime practice of one's behavior.

Hillary Clinton is known to have a lifetime practice of following the Bible, through words and actions. The media does not cover it a lot, but there are a few stories that have covered it before. On the other hand, Donald Trump is known to be lacking in both behavioral traits and spiritual background. The media has made this very clear to everyone.

Although it is disturbing, I think there is an explanation of why it's happening. A lot of these evangelicals might talk politics on the side as they are attending weekly services, and the leaders may distribute their advice regarding their preferences for the Presidential race. People in the congregation tend to act on peer pressure--it's just human nature, and religious groups are no exception.

But it's the people at the top of the religious organizations that are making their choice to support Trump, and people in their congregations like to follow their leaders--it's just a matter of habit, particularly with religion. As a result, the masses are herded to have the political beliefs of those at the top of their organizations.

As for myself, I believe in the Bible but do not attend church regularly. I have no objection to going there, but most of the time it just doesn't fit into my schedule. Because of this, I feel that I have much more freedom to make my political decisions on my own, rather than based on the words of religious leaders.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There's a certain segment of the Democratic Party that thinks that religion as a whole is bad, that any hint of Christian-inspired morality, policy, symbolism, language, etc. in American life needs to be purged, and that those who believe in Christianity are foolish.  At least, that's the perception of most Christians on the right.  And let's be fair, there's definitely something to it.

Lately there's been a rise in churches that pander to liberal youth by saying, "we're the cool church.  We're the tolerant church.  Come to us if you're tired of the Republicans in your church."  And you go there and every sermon will be about how God loves whatever minority/LGBT group, or weed.  The two things liberal millennials care about.  It's pretty lame, what's supposed to be a completely separate and very important part of your life (and it is to me), has just become, for a lot of left-leaning youth, just another extension of their oh-so-important political identity.  They can't read the new testament without thinking about how it relates to the 2016 election or whatever.

It's a shame.

Uh, speaking as someone who attends probably exactly the type of church you're talking about, you understand nothing about it aside from being liberal. But Jesus Christ is always first and foremost. We don't live our hands in worship of progressive values.

[RFayette]

This is an ugly, ugly thread, and I'm not really interested too much in getting myself, except to point out that many posters here, myself included, take politics way too seriously.  Most Christians don't even care much about politics, and many don't vote at all.  Evangelicals come in all shades and stripes, and the majority of adult, voting-age Evangelicals won't be voting for Trump, even if he gets over 50% head-to-head among those who do plan to vote.  And salvation is contingent upon faith in Christ alone, not who one votes for in this election.  Non-Christians getting to define who is and isn't a Christian is pretty laughable, even if they are correct in pointing out Trump's moral turpitude. Both candidates are terrible as far as I'm concerned, and it hearkens back to what John Calvin said about government:  When God wants to judge a nation, he gives them wicked leaders.  That rings true now more than ever.

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

While true, even heretics can be Christians and saved. We aren't exclusionists.

Yes, Catholics can be saved despite a partially errant salvation doctrine and rejection of monergism.  

God established the local church for believers to worship in .  His will is best glorified in a Reformed church, whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, or non-denominational.  

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You see, Trump has an (R) next to his name, so all is forgiven.

It's forgiven because Jesus paid the price on the Cross.

I tend to respect religious sentiment. But, frankly, I simply do not believe it, when produced by a Trumpista. It is obvious that every Trump voter would, if he were to find himself on that hill near Jerusalem, happily put a few extra nails through the body of Jesus.

Nah, he'd most likely be offering to buy Jesus' cloak from the centurions, in exchange for a few drachmas to be paid later, which he would have no intention of paying.

[ag]

You see, Trump has an (R) next to his name, so all is forgiven.

It's forgiven because Jesus paid the price on the Cross.

I tend to respect religious sentiment. But, frankly, I simply do not believe it, when produced by a Trumpista. It is obvious that every Trump voter would, if he were to find himself on that hill near Jerusalem, happily put a few extra nails through the body of Jesus.

Nah, he'd most likely be offering to buy Jesus' cloak from the centurions, in exchange for a few drachmas to be paid later, which he would have no intention of paying.

Well, that is, certainly, how Trump himself would be behaving. But I was talking about his voters.

Trump is a crook.