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Author Topic: You should have listened  (Read 3664 times)
The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2016, 05:38:40 AM »

Fmr. President James Buchanan
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Re: BREAKING: Lee's Army Surrenders at Appomattox
« on: April 9, 1865, 11:23:47 pm »

My last months as president coincided with a secession crisis, with state after state announcing her departure from the union, the congress hopelessly divided, and the army a mere husk. It was only through my strong leadership, neither resigning and abandoning the union nor endorsing the approach of black Republicans who wished merely to play coy and ignore the impending rupture of our family of states, that brought about a successful war strategy which, while perhaps going on for too long, did bring about the reunion that was necessary.

kek
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rpryor03
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2016, 09:59:04 AM »

is wolfentoad seriously back and has been made speaker in the pacific with rpryor's encouragement

what is this

why haven't you stopped this

He was the only one who wanted it.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2016, 10:14:56 AM »

Wolfentoad is back?? Wow, what wild times those were. I almost miss them!
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2016, 11:55:14 AM »

Wolfentoad is back?? Wow, what wild times those were. I almost miss them!

If it's any conciliation, I find my posts (and overall behavior) from back then to be extremely cringeworthy, to say the least. In retrospect, it's honestly mind-blowing just how seriously the 13 year old version of myself took an online election simulator lmao.

When I was 13 myself I committed the same mistake in other place. This happens.
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Lumine
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2016, 02:37:24 PM »

Fmr. President James Buchanan
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Re: BREAKING: Lee's Army Surrenders at Appomattox
« on: April 9, 1865, 11:23:47 pm »

My last months as president coincided with a secession crisis, with state after state announcing her departure from the union, the congress hopelessly divided, and the army a mere husk. It was only through my strong leadership, neither resigning and abandoning the union nor endorsing the approach of black Republicans who wished merely to play coy and ignore the impending rupture of our family of states, that brought about a successful war strategy which, while perhaps going on for too long, did bring about the reunion that was necessary.

You sir, have won this thread.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2016, 03:08:38 PM »

I note a continued failure to address the actual points Bore made.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2016, 04:18:23 PM »

I note a continued failure to address the actual points Bore made.

I certainly disagree with his pathetic claims he fought for game reform while he actually was missing 90% of the time, dodging his duties, but not having enough decency to step down and let someone else do the job he cared nothing for.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2016, 04:25:58 PM »

But this is my point: the responses have been attacking him rather than his arguments. Which is telling.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2016, 04:27:51 PM »

But this is my point: the responses have been attacking him rather than his arguments. Which is telling.

Can speak only for myself. I haven't addressed his present claims indeed, but I don't see why shouldn't we address other assertions he included in his post.

Having just recently re-registered, I don't feel competent to speak on the election I was ineligible to vote.
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bore
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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2016, 07:28:46 PM »


You didn't move the terms of the debate on the right, bore. Sawx's ban did more to move the debate among us than you did.


My speech was on the 18th, you signed it on the 18th, Sawx was banned on the 22nd. Nice try.

Fmr. President James Buchanan
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Re: BREAKING: Lee's Army Surrenders at Appomattox
« on: April 9, 1865, 11:23:47 pm »

My last months as president coincided with a secession crisis, with state after state announcing her departure from the union, the congress hopelessly divided, and the army a mere husk. It was only through my strong leadership, neither resigning and abandoning the union nor endorsing the approach of black Republicans who wished merely to play coy and ignore the impending rupture of our family of states, that brought about a successful war strategy which, while perhaps going on for too long, did bring about the reunion that was necessary.

Completely inaccurate, obviously, but I have to admit this is quite funny. Most obviously, the crisis as it started was nothing to do with me but to do with a game wide dissatisfaction with atlasia as it existed. And yes, my approach was the correct one by any objective standard. I fulfilled all that was required of me. I never failed to sign or veto any of the few bills the senate sent me, I made appointments and I even engaged with the senate more than most senators did. In other words I allowed the game to stumble on, but I did not try and give the illusion that all was well and try and paper over the severe structural flaws by proposing new laws which would have been wiped out in a few months or spend hours trying to find a SoEA or SoIA who would just resign in frustration a wee later.

Unlike you I took full responsibility for the fiasco.

What is interesting that I've devised that ultimately failed scenario as a way to actually get the likes of you to react. Unsurprisingly to no avail.

So yes, I did mishandle this, but at least I did something.

Is that interesting? I don't really think so.

I'm not going to pretend and never have that I enjoyed engaging with GM storylines much, like most people in the game at best I used them as sticks to beat my opponent with because they didn't respond to them. But of course this was highly hypocritical. That's politics. But I guess I'm sorry that I didn't take storylines such as atlasia being in the throes of a rebellion led by Bushie and Lebron as seriously as they deserved.
At least Kalwejt acted, and as GM he always worked to make the game more interesting and more interactive. His legacy as an officeholder (and particularly as GM) is far more accomplished than this revisionist active and strong presidency which apparently existed during 2015, even if we can find countless statements of respected Atlasians of different sides who openly defined the period the other way around.

Your call for radical reform was admittedly more reasonable than that of those who wished for the game to suddenly cease its existence, but you are on record stating that a Con Con was impossible at one moment and that we might as well leave everything to burn down. To make matters worse, that was right at the moment in which we had an actual revolution and the Attorney General appointed by the Administration committing treason. What we needed was firm, assertive leadership from the White House, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't what we had (which was voiced again and again from people from virtually all sides).

And if we want to debate only of facts, we can note that the opinion polls and public debate consistently showcased disappointment on the administration, that respected cabinet ministers resigned in protest of this, that even people deeply supportive of Labor like Windjammer did call for your resignation and that very little got actually done or said by the White House in those two terms.

I'm somewhat bemused by this idea that if only I had appointed some people (and, let us be clear, no one wanted those jobs) to some unworkable jobs, or written a statement condemning violence, then everything would have been ok and we would have returned to a land of milk and honey.

Using the term strong presidency which I did not, is misleading. I said strong leadership, which is not the same thing. I showed strong leadership by not exercising a strong presidency during the crisis, by not issuing paper decrees and stirring speeches when that was the politically popular thing to do.

Personally my feeling is that the animosity towards my presidency, and I don't doubt that it exists from, as you have pointed out, the establishment of the time, across the spectrum, is based on the fact that I didn't pretend that everything was ok at the time. And by acknowledging this truth I was directly implicating that very same establishment for killing the game, which of course they can not handle. Now I don't think it's intentional, clearly not. Yankee for instance is clearly committed to the game. But the establishment was angered by the implication that by blocking nearly every reform of consequence (of course individually many of them did support one reform but not others, but collectively nothing could happen), had stifled the game to death. No one wants to be accused of killing a thing they love. And the natural reaction is to pretend that everything was fine in the lead up to the crisis, until big nasty bore and the evil IRC tried to kill it. But it simply isn't true.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2016, 04:35:42 AM »

Notice I said, "move the discussion on the right", not change my vote personally.


There was still reluctance after I signed, bore and the mass loss of players from Sawx, to Adam to Snowguy from bans and deregistrations, help push them to try the Con-con.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2016, 07:46:31 AM »

Bore, nobody pretended that "everything was OK". The difference was between those who wanted to throw everything away without even trying to lift their fingers, like you, and those who acted.

As of the GM stuff, you seem to believe it's pretty much unimportant and we should stick to electoral simulations only. Valid point, but you can't possibly expect Atlasia to be a real governmental simulation without such mechanism. If such a bland approachment suits you, well, it's your right.
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bore
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2016, 07:47:45 AM »

Notice I said, "move the discussion on the right", not change my vote personally.


There was still reluctance after I signed, bore and the mass loss of players from Sawx, to Adam to Snowguy from bans and deregistrations, help push them to try the Con-con.

The petition was signed before sawx's banning but after my speech by you, jomcar, cinyc, poirot and adam. That's 4 (at the time) very active right wingers and the labor power broker. After the 22nd july but before the 1st of august it was signed by, timturner, marokai, flo, dereich, tony v, texasgurl, clarkkent, newcanadaland, badger, anoton kreitzer, peeperkorn, sanchez and gass.

Of those 4 can be counted as right wingers, with dereich being the only one who was active in the game at the time. The rest were the result of the labor machine swinging behind getting people to sign the petition and were mainly, to put it charitably, zombies. I'm sorry, yankee, but the facts simply do not bear your theory here out.
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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2016, 07:58:33 AM »

Bore, nobody pretended that "everything was OK". The difference was between those who wanted to throw everything away without even trying to lift their fingers, like you, and those who acted.

Not true. At all, actually. In my many terms in the senate I backed pretty much every major reform going, only for every single one, including objectively sensible and minor ones like giving the SOFE the power to hold votes on amendments instead of unreliable governors, to be blocked by mindless reactionaries. In my first term as president I spent pretty much all of my political capital on a big piece of electoral reform, only to have it torpedoed by the labor machine. I signed the petition for a ConCon weeks before my speech, with the only result being radio silence. I did everything within the structures of the game possible to push for change, with nothing happening. Given that threatening to throw everything away was the only thing that provoked the reactionaries into accepting radical change then I'm not going to apologise for doing so.

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Perhaps. Although, as I noted, I'm far from alone in that view. I think a GM can be useful, although such a role should be limited. The thing is there's no fun, and actually it's the height of blandness, in dealing with something like a terrorist attack (write a speech saying you condemn the attackers and will support the victims, say we won't be afraid because the terrorists would have won, forget about it in a week), and there's no fun in dealing with an objectively implausible situation like Bushie leading a rebellion against the government.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2016, 10:43:27 AM »

We've got some delusion of grandeur here. People have been aware and vocal on the need of game reform long before you became President. Suggesting that your actions, or rather lack of action, was a deciding factor here is... interesting.

Restart had been accomplished under Griffin, who unlike you never abdicated his responsibilities as President. It's naive to think "bah, reset, everything's solved now" way was of any use.

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Perhaps. Although, as I noted, I'm far from alone in that view. I think a GM can be useful, although such a role should be limited. The thing is there's no fun, and actually it's the height of blandness, in dealing with something like a terrorist attack (write a speech saying you condemn the attackers and will support the victims, say we won't be afraid because the terrorists would have won, forget about it in a week), and there's no fun in dealing with an objectively implausible situation like Bushie leading a rebellion against the government.

Well, I've been receiving more positive notes than negative on my overall tenure as GM and a lot of people were getting involved thanks to various developments, so you certainly can't claim Atlasians views it as bland or useless.

OK, forget terrorist stuff for a moment. What about diplomatic problems with other countries? You've ignored it entirely. Whether you like the idea of GM or not, the law provides for the game engine and President can't just ignore it. You're free to push for the abolition of the game engine, but until then it's just immature to be like "oh, this is part of the rules I don't like, let's ignore it."

Last, but not least, I firmly believe that one of the reasons South American experiment had failed is because you have no game engine whatsoever. All you managed was to repeat all of Atlasia's mistakes.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2016, 01:07:54 PM »

We've got some delusion of grandeur here. People have been aware and vocal on the need of game reform long before you became President. Suggesting that your actions, or rather lack of action, was a deciding factor here is... interesting.

Restart had been accomplished under Griffin, who unlike you never abdicated his responsibilities as President. It's naive to think "bah, reset, everything's solved now" way was of any use.

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Perhaps. Although, as I noted, I'm far from alone in that view. I think a GM can be useful, although such a role should be limited. The thing is there's no fun, and actually it's the height of blandness, in dealing with something like a terrorist attack (write a speech saying you condemn the attackers and will support the victims, say we won't be afraid because the terrorists would have won, forget about it in a week), and there's no fun in dealing with an objectively implausible situation like Bushie leading a rebellion against the government.

Well, I've been receiving more positive notes than negative on my overall tenure as GM and a lot of people were getting involved thanks to various developments, so you certainly can't claim Atlasians views it as bland or useless.

OK, forget terrorist stuff for a moment. What about diplomatic problems with other countries? You've ignored it entirely. Whether you like the idea of GM or not, the law provides for the game engine and President can't just ignore it. You're free to push for the abolition of the game engine, but until then it's just immature to be like "oh, this is part of the rules I don't like, let's ignore it."

Last, but not least, I firmly believe that one of the reasons South American experiment had failed is because you have no game engine whatsoever. All you managed was to repeat all of Atlasia's mistakes.

This entire thread is full of the most bizarre attempts at gaslighting the populace that I've ever seen (the craven revisionist history that Bore FAILED TO LEAD or whatever the hell is pretty gross) but this last paragraph is especially egregious. The Mock Parliament game had a far more involved and powerful GM than Atlasia! If anything, you may actually be correct - adopting a "game engine" was a mistake.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2016, 01:19:39 PM »

We've got some delusion of grandeur here. People have been aware and vocal on the need of game reform long before you became President. Suggesting that your actions, or rather lack of action, was a deciding factor here is... interesting.

Restart had been accomplished under Griffin, who unlike you never abdicated his responsibilities as President. It's naive to think "bah, reset, everything's solved now" way was of any use.

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Perhaps. Although, as I noted, I'm far from alone in that view. I think a GM can be useful, although such a role should be limited. The thing is there's no fun, and actually it's the height of blandness, in dealing with something like a terrorist attack (write a speech saying you condemn the attackers and will support the victims, say we won't be afraid because the terrorists would have won, forget about it in a week), and there's no fun in dealing with an objectively implausible situation like Bushie leading a rebellion against the government.

Well, I've been receiving more positive notes than negative on my overall tenure as GM and a lot of people were getting involved thanks to various developments, so you certainly can't claim Atlasians views it as bland or useless.

OK, forget terrorist stuff for a moment. What about diplomatic problems with other countries? You've ignored it entirely. Whether you like the idea of GM or not, the law provides for the game engine and President can't just ignore it. You're free to push for the abolition of the game engine, but until then it's just immature to be like "oh, this is part of the rules I don't like, let's ignore it."

Last, but not least, I firmly believe that one of the reasons South American experiment had failed is because you have no game engine whatsoever. All you managed was to repeat all of Atlasia's mistakes.

This entire thread is full of the most bizarre attempts at gaslighting the populace that I've ever seen (the craven revisionist history that Bore FAILED TO LEAD or whatever the hell is pretty gross) but this last paragraph is especially egregious. The Mock Parliament game had a far more involved and powerful GM than Atlasia! If anything, you may actually be correct - adopting a "game engine" was a mistake.

Maybe so. I've been hearing some complaints about lack of interesting stimulation in the mock parliament.

If this is incorrect, though, it only shows the game engine is a valuable tool.

As of so-called "revisionist" history, the word "revisionist" doesn't fit here. Bore had been criticized back then for his lack of action. Whether we agree or disagree on his stance, it was a major issue.

If there's any revisionism here it's claiming that aside of few people like bore pretty much everybody else disagrees on a need to reform the game. Not true. There were very few people that claimed nothing should be done.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2016, 06:10:56 AM »

Notice I said, "move the discussion on the right", not change my vote personally.


There was still reluctance after I signed, bore and the mass loss of players from Sawx, to Adam to Snowguy from bans and deregistrations, help push them to try the Con-con.

The petition was signed before sawx's banning but after my speech by you, jomcar, cinyc, poirot and adam. That's 4 (at the time) very active right wingers and the labor power broker. After the 22nd july but before the 1st of august it was signed by, timturner, marokai, flo, dereich, tony v, texasgurl, clarkkent, newcanadaland, badger, anoton kreitzer, peeperkorn, sanchez and gass.

Of those 4 can be counted as right wingers, with dereich being the only one who was active in the game at the time. The rest were the result of the labor machine swinging behind getting people to sign the petition and were mainly, to put it charitably, zombies. I'm sorry, yankee, but the facts simply do not bear your theory here out.

Prior to the massive number of deregistrations, consolidation was still viewed with hostility, and many thought a convention would fail to achieve anything. Even among those who signed it, many were still opposed to consolidation, which was of course the primary expected proposal at a convention. Perhaps that is what is causing our different interpretation of events with regards to support on the right. The massive loss of players finally encouraged those who had long opposed consolidation to realize it was only answer at that point.

I would also point out that I purposely delayed signing by a week because I was worried that the minute I signed the petition, it would be attacked as "Yankee's little scheme to preserve the status quo" by the dissolution, which was already being tossed around. Avoiding signing it gave the con-con some distance until those critics began to depart.
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« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2016, 11:20:35 AM »

My reforms of the Game Engine were made with South America in mind- the situations we had there were really exciting; even if it only lasted for a month or so
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bore
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« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2016, 02:29:08 PM »

We've got some delusion of grandeur here. People have been aware and vocal on the need of game reform long before you became President. Suggesting that your actions, or rather lack of action, was a deciding factor here is... interesting.

Restart had been accomplished under Griffin, who unlike you never abdicated his responsibilities as President. It's naive to think "bah, reset, everything's solved now" way was of any use.

Well yes. That's true, and I've never claimed otherwise. Pretty much every game reform had the support of a majority (hence all of them passing the senate) of atlasians and probably a supermajority of active ones. What did happen, on every single one of them though, was that there were reactionaries who blocked the changes, not always the same, (although, as noted, some like zuwo were the same) but always enough, combined with the terrible system, to block any change.


Well, I've been receiving more positive notes than negative on my overall tenure as GM and a lot of people were getting involved thanks to various developments, so you certainly can't claim Atlasians views it as bland or useless.

OK, forget terrorist stuff for a moment. What about diplomatic problems with other countries? You've ignored it entirely. Whether you like the idea of GM or not, the law provides for the game engine and President can't just ignore it. You're free to push for the abolition of the game engine, but until then it's just immature to be like "oh, this is part of the rules I don't like, let's ignore it."

Last, but not least, I firmly believe that one of the reasons South American experiment had failed is because you have no game engine whatsoever. All you managed was to repeat all of Atlasia's mistakes.

I'm not at all surprised that people claim to view the GM office positively. In fact I've already said that, repeatedly, up thread.  But of course people claim to do so. As I said, it's one of the best sticks for beating your opponent over the head with. No one really decides their votes on it though, it's just a rhetorical device. And as soon as they reach the position of actually engaging with the office in a meaningful way, most people come around to the view that the office is unworkable. Most GMs do, which is why there is such a high turnover. The problem is no one ever believes that something is so because the GM says so. Hence Adam's aliens storyline, or the terrorist attacks, or whatever. In all those cases the public simply don't believe him. Hell, who really believes that atlasia has run surpluses for the last 12 years? The GM, if he is to believed has to say things everyone already knows, and if he doesn't, no one believes him.

And the thing is atlasia is primarily an elections game and only secondarily a government one. If the president wants to ignore the GM he can. Maybe not de jure but certainly de facto. If the public disagree they'll not re elect him or his party. But, funnily enough, that doesn't happen.


Prior to the massive number of deregistrations, consolidation was still viewed with hostility, and many thought a convention would fail to achieve anything. Even among those who signed it, many were still opposed to consolidation, which was of course the primary expected proposal at a convention. Perhaps that is what is causing our different interpretation of events with regards to support on the right. The massive loss of players finally encouraged those who had long opposed consolidation to realize it was only answer at that point.

I would also point out that I purposely delayed signing by a week because I was worried that the minute I signed the petition, it would be attacked as "Yankee's little scheme to preserve the status quo" by the dissolution, which was already being tossed around. Avoiding signing it gave the con-con some distance until those critics began to depart.

Your second paragraph is convenient, maybe it's true. I don't know so I can't deal with it.

And the first one isn't really a matter of disagreement. I obviously wouldn't have made the speech if there hadn't been a spate of deregistrations and inactivity. They were the inevitable outcome of that incarnation of the game running it's course, but if it had happened in the term after me I would have kept on going, obviously. The president obviously doesn't have the power to announce there is a crisis and have everyone believe him. The crisis was very very real. But I certainly think it's the case, and the negative reviews from the usual suspects of my tenure confirm, that if I had tried to polish the turd, if I had unleashed a flurry of executive orders and pmed everyone in the game and dragged together a cabinet, at least in name only, then the game would have held together for a bit long, staggering on. And I think that is a real contradiction. You can't say that on the one hand I didn't lead enough, and on the other that of course the crisis was real and overwhelming and nothing I did changed its course, and the ConCon would have happened anyway. If I had been more active on a conventional level in my last few months I think the ConCon would not have happened. And I think that would be a tragedy for the game.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2016, 03:26:17 PM »

OK, it seems the fundamental disagreement we're having on this particular issue is whether Atlasia should be just an electoral simulation with people spending hours of their time talking s**t about each others on IRC, or something more. Literally every discussion shows the public is in favor of having something more. How about instead of sabotaging each other we'll just form two games: one just an electoral simulation and other more complicated governmental simulation, not interacting with each other. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, the electoral one can have this board. Thus everybody have their place.

Seriously, people, let's have Atlasia A and Atlasia B.

By the way, I have devoted a lot of my time and energy into serving this game while GM. Whether you liked it or not, it's was an established part of the game, so I find your particular stance personally insulting. Well, you certainly do like being a sanctimonious fellow.
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« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2016, 03:33:07 PM »

OK, it seems the fundamental disagreement we're having on this particular issue is whether Atlasia should be just an electoral simulation with people spending hours of their time talking s**t about each others on IRC, or something more. Literally every discussion shows the public is in favor of having something more.

[citation needed]
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2016, 03:35:34 PM »

OK, it seems the fundamental disagreement we're having on this particular issue is whether Atlasia should be just an electoral simulation with people spending hours of their time talking s**t about each others on IRC, or something more. Literally every discussion shows the public is in favor of having something more.

[citation needed]

Thankfully I have better things to do with my life than going through thousands of posts so I can stick it to my opponent in discussion Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2016, 01:19:30 AM »

Don't make claims you can't back up. Everyone has better things to do with their lives, and yet you're posting here anyway.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
Atlas Institution
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2016, 02:09:04 AM »

Good comeback.

"Majority of population" was a stretch, yes, since we never had any realiable survey done there. Fact remains that support for the game being something more than simple electoral simulation is significant.
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