Atlas Forum Movement: Restore Atlasia to the Atlas Forum

[Хahar 🤔]

The present situation in which Atlasia's electoral official has conspired to steal an election to grant himself the vice presidency is a travesty, but if nothing else it has generated a great deal of interest in matters of Atlasia. Judging by the uproar and the amount of debate going on regarding this Atlasian election, one would think that interest and participation in Atlasian government was higher than ever.

And yet this could not be farther from the case! Atlasia has been plagued constantly by problems with activity; for a very long time, there have been too many elective offices for not enough interested people to guarantee entertaining and competitive elections at all levels. This, at least, is universally acknowledged, and the new constitution was an attempt to fix that. It has not worked at all.

As we speak, there is legislation pending to reduce the number of seats in the House from nine to seven; opponents of that legislation have pointed out the presence of eleven candidates for nine seats in the most recent election, reasoning that if every seat isn't uncontested then that's the best that we can reasonably do. In the Fremont Region, the last election for Assembly had one candidate for three seats. Of the three candidates elected in that election (two, of course, being write-ins), two have left their offices, leaving them to be filled by appointment. The Governor of the region has also since left office, causing his replacement to be confirmed in an uncontested election. This is supposed to be an election game; we're all here on the Atlas Forum because we love elections. Where are the elections?

Some people have recognized this miasma and tried to fix it. Scott, notably, proposed the creation of a Reform Party based around a commitment to activity. This is an admirable and commendable goal. Unfortunately, Scott's approach is doomed to fail because it does not address the roots of the activity problem, which are structural.

The problem of inactivity plagues electoral offices, particularly regional offices, because when excited new posters get elected to office, they soon discover it's not all that it's cracked up to be and lose interest. Alternately, when there aren't enough new posters for that to happen, old posters get thrust back into office despite lacking interest, and so they are inactive also. The reason for this rampant inactivity is that, as it turns out, there's nothing to do in government in Atlasia.

Before you protest, think about it. When Atlasia agreed to reboot its entire legislative history, wiping away over a decade of legislation, it conceded that nothing that happened over that time was of any real consequence. What happens when everything is accomplished again, as it was then? Will Atlasia wipe the slate clean again so that it can legalize marijuana a third time? Government in Atlasia is tedious work, arguing over bills of no real consequence that motivate nobody, which is why so many people stay away. We have long since reached a point where, far from augmenting elections by giving them stakes, fantasy government actually impedes elections by dissuading candidates from running lest they win. The purpose of the Atlas Forum Movement is to offer an alternative, so that there can actually be exciting and competitive elections for everyone. This is, after all, an election simulation.

The Atlas Forum Movement is inspired by Boss Tweed's campaign for president several years ago, which was and remains the presidential campaign most honestly interested in making Atlasia work that I have ever seen. In that campaign, Tweed identified the fundamental issue facing Atlasia: its disconnection from the Atlas Forum. Instead of dealing with problems of real consequence to the forum and its posters, Tweed noted, the Atlasian government spent all its time dealing with matters of no interest except to itself, completely ignoring what was going on in the forum. This was a perversion of the original intent of Atlasia, which was to serve as an election simulator for the whole Atlas Forum community, to determine a president of the whole Atlas Forum and not just of a fake country. Nothing has changed since.

If anything, things have gotten worse. Think back to the great schism of last year, when a large portion of the forum split off to go to a different site amidst contentious debate over the future of the site. The Senate of Atlasia could have been a place to debate this momentous issue for the long-term health of the forum; the President of Atlasia could have provided leadership. Where were they? They were completely absent, because Atlasia is irrelevant to the forum at large. It's two boards on the very bottom of the front page that most people don't even think to look at except when they get a PM to vote, because nothing that gets discussed is really of genuine consequence to anyone.

The goal of the Atlas Forum movement is to make Atlasia once again part of the Atlas Forum as a whole. Instead of debating the abolition of a fantasy EPA, the Atlas Forum Movement proposes that Atlasia instead deal with real issues: both issues happening in the real world and issues for this website. The problems that plague Atlasia will never be fixed with mere cosmetic changes, with increased activity requirements, with a new constitution now and then. What Atlasia requires is reorientation, and I encourage people of all ideologies to join me in the realization of that goal.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And how long before there is a realization that this "game" can do nothing regarding the site's policies, which were at the root of the situation with AAD.


Dave makes forum policy and the moderators enforce it. That is why the game shifted to being more of its own entity with the gov't and legislation and so forth. Because while there is nothing "physical to do" there is stuff that can be done in a fantasy gov't.

When it comes to making a Atlasia a gov't for the forum community, the problem with that is 1) Elections would never be competitive for anyone to your right, and 2) There is literally NOTHING to do. Because Dave wouldn't give a crap what the Atlasian President says and such an elected body would never be given any authority to change the TOS.

Once again, what you are proposing is a cleverly concealed call for dissolving Atlasia. Without the Gov't simulator, this would be a redux of the Forum Community Match ups, only with some campaigning for the meaningless win.

Also, one last note, the Atlasian President in Spring and Summer of 2015 when the Forum schism and AAD happened was your homeboy Bore. Ironic that you are criticizing him for doing nothing.

[diptheriadan]

And how long before there is a realization that this "game" can do nothing regarding the site's policies, which were at the root of the situation with AAD.


Dave makes forum policy and the moderators enforce it. That is why the game shifted to being more of its own entity with the gov't and legislation and so forth. Because while there is nothing "physical to do" there is stuff that can be done in a fantasy gov't.

When it comes to making a Atlasia a gov't for the forum community, the problem with that is 1) Elections would never be competitive for anyone to your right, and 2) There is literally NOTHING to do. Because Dave wouldn't give a crap what the Atlasian President says and such an elected body would never be given any authority to change the TOS.

Once again, what you are proposing is a cleverly concealed call for dissolving Atlasia. Without the Gov't simulator, this would be a redux of the Forum Community Match ups, only with some campaigning for the meaningless win.

Also, one last note, the Atlasian President in Spring and Summer of 2015 when the Forum schism and AAD happened was your homeboy Bore. Ironic that you are criticizing him for doing nothing.

Then maybe Atlasia should dissolve. Personally, I think it's a heck of a lot better than having this little amount of activity. I agree with Xahar, the real problem is that nothing matters. There is no sort of grand power that a person can achieve by running for office, there is no monetary gain, there is little to no fame that is gained, and noting matters. A real life government that functioned that same as Atlasia would have the same problems.

Forgive me for asking, but has anyone contacted Dave about this? And if they haven't, why not try to? It's at least worth a try.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And how long before there is a realization that this "game" can do nothing regarding the site's policies, which were at the root of the situation with AAD.


Dave makes forum policy and the moderators enforce it. That is why the game shifted to being more of its own entity with the gov't and legislation and so forth. Because while there is nothing "physical to do" there is stuff that can be done in a fantasy gov't.

When it comes to making a Atlasia a gov't for the forum community, the problem with that is 1) Elections would never be competitive for anyone to your right, and 2) There is literally NOTHING to do. Because Dave wouldn't give a crap what the Atlasian President says and such an elected body would never be given any authority to change the TOS.

Once again, what you are proposing is a cleverly concealed call for dissolving Atlasia. Without the Gov't simulator, this would be a redux of the Forum Community Match ups, only with some campaigning for the meaningless win.

Also, one last note, the Atlasian President in Spring and Summer of 2015 when the Forum schism and AAD happened was your homeboy Bore. Ironic that you are criticizing him for doing nothing.

Then maybe Atlasia should dissolve. Personally, I think it's a heck of a lot better than having this little amount of activity. I agree with Xahar, the real problem is that nothing matters. There is no sort of grand power that a person can achieve by running for office, there is no monetary gain, there is little to no fame that is gained, and noting matters. A real life government that functioned that same as Atlasia would have the same problems.

Forgive me for asking, but has anyone contacted Dave about this? And if they haven't, why not try to? It's at least worth a try.

Why should Atlasia be dissolved by those who think that way, when others disagree? No one is forcing you to play the game, you should not force others to stop playing it. That is my answer to dissolution of anything, be it Atlasia or political parties or whatever. It is basic freedom of association.

Dave is not very responsive to anything.

Remember this forum is an appendage to a site that generates him money. It exists primarily to promote and facility that purpose. So all rules will be made by him for the sake of preserving the quality of the site, keeping it off school/university ban lists and making sure nothing done on here violates the law or drives away customers/site traffic. Dave is not going to care what an elected assembly of posters thinks. If their is general outrage, some policies will be tweaked as happened last July. But even then the changes were minimal. The point system for infractions was removed, but that was only created in 2010 anyway. The TOS hasn't been changed etc.

The Schism was primarily people that wanted to 1) say cusswords with Mods infracting them and 2) the continuation of the update where a bunch of posters obsess and dwell rather disturbingly over the actions and activities of a poster whose life choices they take issue with. This had become rather excessive and the Mods determined that it had became inappropriate so they locked it.

Dave and the mods would not give a crap about a resolution calling for the return of the update or laxing of the TOS. At the end of the day this site is private property and people can either accept the rules, get banned or leave. The mods have made this painfully clear, numerous times.

I highly doubt that Xahar really things there is more tangible "activity" to be found by wading in between that relationship and trying to act as an intermediate between a perpetually dissatisfied minority of posters and a very unresponsive forum admin.

Now with the fantasy gov't sim aspect, you have a Game Moderator that generates stories that the gov't and citizens are suppose to react to. The President and his cabinet responds be in the crisis format that Blair described or the responsive and dynamic cabinet meeting structure I proposed. They then go to congress if legislation is needed and to the people to explain and justify their actions like I proposed with the expansive Question Time idea.

Those laws can involve the regions, and the President should work with the regions to ensure they aware of things they can act on. Some of the story lines may require direct action from the regions and the President and also assist in both awareness of what needs to be done and also providing resources/support from the federal level if necessary.

The key to activity in Atlasia has always been dynamic interaction between a substantial enough number of players. We have had huge populations and still had the game be inactive. You can keep cutting off limbs until their is nothing left or can actively work to engage people and develop that kind of interaction between the gov't entities.

Blair said we need the Press back, I agree completely. I said the same in early 2015 and in 2014 before that when I actually helped jump start a press revival with SNC news. The activity of the press is a key factor in keeping this game interesting. They also provide election trackers as well. Truman has a great one with Mideast Record Courier, which is not as active as it used to be, I tried to start a partisan rag in the Spring, but it didn't catch on.

[Blair]

Who was saying this during the campaign?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

If someone has a vested interest in the game, I don't see why they'd want to abolish it.  But Yankee's already stated the plainly obvious reasons that Atlasia doesn't influence the board policies.  The people bemoaning the moderation standards here of course already have The Other Place to run which ever way they'd like, but because Atlas Forum is not itself a 'democracy,' there's nothing we can do here that will have any effect on anyone except for the imaginary citizens of a fictional country.  This was I think something that was brought up numerous times during Tweed's presidential run, but he dodged the issue every time he was asked about it.

People are forgetting this game for what it is: a game.  Simple as that.  If it was meant to be anything else, Dave would presumably be an active player because then he would have reason to care about what we debate.

The Reform Party was a crapshoot and I said that much from the beginning, but it was a lot more meaningful than pioneering faux Marxist revolutions or forcing the institutions of the game to exclude people we don't like.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Let Pepe spring forth from the dresser to preach the truth!


Tweed's campaign is hardly something to be citing. Remember he came in forth and sued to have himself installed as President, which in spite of Napoleon's (the winner of that election) subsequent ban, is still just as ridiculous as it was then. If anything, Clarence should have been President, the actual runner up.


I would also point that Tweed's selfish actions last year caused great harm and when he got caught he tried to bring both Bacon King and Adam down with him, getting himself a lifetime ban (nearly getting those two the same consequence) and putting himself a category of irredeemably banned posters that exceeds that of Hamilton/Napoleon in the "never gonna see him back category".

But this crowd always celebrates deplorable behavior and resorts to revisionist history to hoist such irresponsible people onto a pedestal of greatness, before presenting them as models for Atlasia to follow into the depths of a volcano. So this is no surprise.

[ilikeverin]

Marvelous ideas as always, Xahar!

[Torie]

The suggestion is that the TOS should be set by the elected officials of Atlasia? Really? The owner of the site should defer to what a majority of posters think who vote? I'm gobsmacked.

[Хahar 🤔]

The suggestion is that the TOS should be set by the elected officials of Atlasia? Really? The owner of the site should defer to what a majority of posters think who vote? I'm gobsmacked.

Nobody suggested this, no.

[Torie]

The suggestion is that the TOS should be set by the elected officials of Atlasia? Really? The owner of the site should defer to what a majority of posters think who vote? I'm gobsmacked.

Nobody suggested this, no.

IC. What would the president of the whole forum do? What would be his or her powers?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm in!

[Leinad]

So...you're saying you want to make the Atlas Forum *more* navel-gazing than it already is? And replace ultimately meaningless discussion about interesting real-life political issues with ultimately meaningless discussion on BRTD's latest "opinion of" thread?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

The suggestion is that the TOS should be set by the elected officials of Atlasia? Really? The owner of the site should defer to what a majority of posters think who vote? I'm gobsmacked.

Nobody suggested this, no.

So what is being suggested, then?

Are we to take up petitions like this and pass a resolution on it or something for Dave to just ignore, as he surely would?

What is it?  Give us specifics.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I disavow those who are opposed and also support this movement.

[Enduro]

The suggestion is that the TOS should be set by the elected officials of Atlasia? Really? The owner of the site should defer to what a majority of posters think who vote? I'm gobsmacked.

Nobody suggested this, no.

So what is being suggested, then?

Are we to take up petitions like this and pass a resolution on it or something for Dave to just ignore, as he surely would?

What is it?  Give us specifics.

Exactly, I don't want to say yes or no to an idea until I hear some specifics.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I think this is a really interesting idea that would draw my increased participation.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

The suggestion is that the TOS should be set by the elected officials of Atlasia? Really? The owner of the site should defer to what a majority of posters think who vote? I'm gobsmacked.

Nobody suggested this, no.

So what is being suggested, then?

Are we to take up petitions like this and pass a resolution on it or something for Dave to just ignore, as he surely would?

What is it?  Give us specifics.

Still waiting for a response to this.

[Хahar 🤔]

I've got two midterms next week so this has been a hectic time for me, please bear with me.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

It's true we have too many offices right now.

[AndrewTX]

People should just vote to re-elect Andrew/Andrew for President and Vice President, and things would remain good and well.

But yeah.. y'all got a lot of offices

[Mervin]

Thanks for this piece Xahar, it was inspiring to read this. Tweed's June 2012 campaign was instructive in many elements, especially about how Atlasia has drifted from the community.

I am ready to go a step further now in November 2016, and I think into where Tweed was trying to go in his alcoholic, haphazard way in June 2012.  What is important to understand is that Atlasia grew out of the uselectionatlas.org Forum community.  It was organic.  The first election, of course preceded any written Constitution, and was oh by the way won by the man who would be promoted to ModAdmin, Nym90.


In the 13 years since, we have seen a serious degradation of the uselectionatlas.org community.  The truth for why this is the case is devastatingly simple: the owner of the website does not care about the Forum.  Dave Leip does not care about Atlasia.  It is time to Make Him Care Again.  (...but when did he care?  when was America great?..)

Do you all know, that in July of 2015, a good 15 months now, Dave Leip promised you "changes" and said he was "already looking into" upgrading the Forum software to Web 2.0-level?

Hi - There is no plan to shut the forum down.  Quite the contrary, I'm soliciting feedback and will be putting effort into makings some changes to help mitigate the concerns.

Thanks,
Dave

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hi -
My thought on this is rather than "like", change the terminology to be "agree".  This would be the method to replace an empty quote.  I still prefer to have posts that reply with more substantive information.  I'm interested in hearing more thoughts on how you think this will influence discussion.

I'll research this a bit more to see what options there are.  I am currently already looking into upgrading the forum to 2.0 -> that will be a big job to bring over all the customizations.

Thanks,
Dave

Perhaps the more important consequence of Dave's negligence about the Forum is that it has made personal rivalry and a postmodern Mod Cave 'bureaucratic imperative' the governing force in the Community.  Since Dave would rather draw maps - which he is indeed gifted at, and I applaud him - the question is, why does he bother to host a Forum at all?  When he will simply forget for 16 months to Upgrade, or have a big dialog with the Community about "changes" (which, btw, is what he wanted to do in Jan of 2014 when his Moderators came around demanding a certain poster be banned.  Within 48 hours he was begging for their forgiveness.)

It would all be stupid except for the fact that this Forum has attracted some of the brightest minds I have even seen or known.  Witty, cunning, knowledgeable, technically skilled, all of it and more.  And a lot of these people have been chased off of the Forum because Dave Leip does not want to work hard enough to make sure all of the voices of this Forum attracts can coexist - and this difficulty is precisely because of the 'rainbow' of talents attracted to this website.   Many of us are impressed with ourselves, you can say that both for me AND Torie and Morden and Mikado  all the same.  And combined with Administrator negligence of the highest order, it leads to total decay, hardly any better than a YouTube comments section.

So what to do about it?  One way to get Dave's attention might be to run a campaign explicitly on these lines, to "make Atlasia the democratic expression of the uselectionatlas.org Forum community".  And to have that mean something, again.  

I do not know if that is possible at this point, but so long as Dave wants to have a Forum, and pretends to be invested in it rather than scared of it, and so long as he prefers sheer numbers to valuable content, I am not optimistic.  

But it is bad politics to end on a negative note.  Cheers Xahar, and even to what Griffin tried to do, and to all the rest of you who have stood by me, and been some of my dearest friends.

xx

[Terry the Fat Shark]

so uh, who are you a sock of?