Do Dems have a losing platform or was Hillary just a bad Candidate?
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  Do Dems have a losing platform or was Hillary just a bad Candidate?
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Author Topic: Do Dems have a losing platform or was Hillary just a bad Candidate?  (Read 2815 times)
MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2016, 01:28:06 PM »

4. Seen as a huge liar. For whatever reason Trump seemed to get a pass (or more of a pass) on this despite lying far more than her, and far more shamelessly. But, you know, it is what it is.

While an argument can me made about a sexist perception (a "woman liar" being perceived more harshly than a "male liar"), I think it's not just that.

What many of us, myself including, don't like about Trump might have been his biggest asset on this particular question. His "I don't give a f**k" attitude may cause outrage, but seems genuine. Clinton long struggled to be perceived as... I don't know how to put this? Authentic?
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2016, 01:29:16 PM »

I believe that her being a woman and had ethics issues complicated what a was a winnable election for the Democrats.

Not saying that Sanders would've beaten Trump but the ethics flaws of Clinton lead to her demise.
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Beet
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2016, 01:38:11 PM »

Guys, Trump gets a pass for "lying" because he doesn't lie; nor does he tell the truth. Words just come out of his mouth that have no relation to truth or falsity, if taken literally. The real intention of the communication is meant to be picked up by the listener. Somehow, Trump either realized or stumbled upon his mode of communication which millions of Americans picked up, but which most liberals, the mainstream media, and Democratic politicians didn't... for an entire year. He found like this gold mine or secret tunnel to communicate with people that just bypassed all of them and left them fundamentally misinterpreting what he was saying. As a result they never took his seriously and never understood why he wasn't losing in a landslide. It's just phenomenal.

All of these smart people just didn't get it; and even when confronted with evidence that they weren't getting it,all of these smart people couldn't adapt at all.
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Person Man
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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2016, 02:06:38 PM »

Guys, Trump gets a pass for "lying" because he doesn't lie; nor does he tell the truth. Words just come out of his mouth that have no relation to truth or falsity, if taken literally. The real intention of the communication is meant to be picked up by the listener. Somehow, Trump either realized or stumbled upon his mode of communication which millions of Americans picked up, but which most liberals, the mainstream media, and Democratic politicians didn't... for an entire year. He found like this gold mine or secret tunnel to communicate with people that just bypassed all of them and left them fundamentally misinterpreting what he was saying. As a result they never took his seriously and never understood why he wasn't losing in a landslide. It's just phenomenal.

All of these smart people just didn't get it; and even when confronted with evidence that they weren't getting it,all of these smart people couldn't adapt at all.

He is more art than actual communication.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2016, 02:41:01 PM »


OK, we can use this argument all over again to ignore all other factors that led to Trump's victory, and feel better about ourselves. The fact remains she blew a winnable race, just like Gore had in 2000.

This is literally the worst thing Democrats could do: cling to one reassuring talking point and be just as blind as before the election (except before it was overconfidence).

Good point Kal.

And of course the converse of this talking point is that the Democrats only managed to beat Donald Freaking Trump by <0.5%!
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Shadows
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2016, 02:52:28 PM »

She was a bad candidate. Period:

1. No charisma
2. Not very likeable
3. Comes off as an opportunist
4. Seen as a huge liar. For whatever reason Trump seemed to get a pass (or more of a pass) on this despite lying far more than her, and far more shamelessly. But, you know, it is what it is.
5. Seen as corrupt
6. For so many people, seemed to embody almost everything they hated about politics, a problem which was magnified in an election built around populist anger / a repudiation of business as usual.


And (drum roll please)  last but not least:

7. She had 54819290056 problems/scandals/whatever! Whether or not you consider these "scandals" real or just blown out of proportion, people thought they were important and it contributed immensely to her character problems. She spent almost the entire election defending herself against one scandal after another!


-

Please, let's not be so foolish as to think this election was an indictment of Democratic policies, or really, even Republican policies? This was an election where people chose who they hated less, and it turns out that in critical states, Hillary is hated or not trusted more.

And I must say, one of the biggest changes in the party going forward should be to ensure that the DNC never again rolls out the red carpet for a candidate as vulnerable and plagued with problems as Clinton, or really anyone for that matter.


Agreed. I knew this was gonna happen.

I thought Trump did a really good job hammering only in the last 20 days. Can you imagine against a Kasich with a united GOP & surrogates running around? They would have hit really hard from everything from Clinton Foundation to the emails to Wikileaks Private/Public & so on!

Trump never managed to hit her apart from the last 20 days because he was too busy defending himself. This could have been worse with a decent Republican candidate which would have brought the focus away from Trump & to Hillary's issues!
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Virginiá
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2016, 02:57:24 PM »
« Edited: November 12, 2016, 03:00:16 PM by Virginia »

While an argument can me made about a sexist perception (a "woman liar" being perceived more harshly than a "male liar"), I think it's not just that.

What many of us, myself including, don't like about Trump might have been his biggest asset on this particular question. His "I don't give a f**k" attitude may cause outrage, but seems genuine. Clinton long struggled to be perceived as... I don't know how to put this? Authentic?

I'm not sure why I forgot that one ("authentic"). That was another one of her biggest liabilities. This was a big deal in an election where people were tired of politicians just saying whatever they thought people wanted to hear. They craved authenticity, and this applies to both sides. Ironically they chose Trump, whose 'telling it like it is' behavior was just 'telling them what they want to hear, on steroids.' Exactly what they didn't want.

Amazing how the DNC no doubt understood many of Hillary's issues and yet still cleared the way for her. Their ranks need to be thoroughly cleansed of anyone who still thinks picking favorites and doing all they can to dissuade challengers is acceptable behavior even after this election.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2016, 03:52:41 PM »

While an argument can me made about a sexist perception (a "woman liar" being perceived more harshly than a "male liar"), I think it's not just that.

What many of us, myself including, don't like about Trump might have been his biggest asset on this particular question. His "I don't give a f**k" attitude may cause outrage, but seems genuine. Clinton long struggled to be perceived as... I don't know how to put this? Authentic?

I'm not sure why I forgot that one ("authentic"). That was another one of her biggest liabilities. This was a big deal in an election where people were tired of politicians just saying whatever they thought people wanted to hear. They craved authenticity, and this applies to both sides. Ironically they chose Trump, whose 'telling it like it is' behavior was just 'telling them what they want to hear, on steroids.' Exactly what they didn't want.

Amazing how the DNC no doubt understood many of Hillary's issues and yet still cleared the way for her. Their ranks need to be thoroughly cleansed of anyone who still thinks picking favorites and doing all they can to dissuade challengers is acceptable behavior even after this election.

     Indeed, this election has really exposed a lot of the corruption that exists in the DNC. People were so assured of getting the outcome they wanted that it never occurred to them until it was too late that their strategy was fatally flawed.
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wildfood
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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2016, 07:11:35 PM »

Hillary lost because, in a close race, she was old news. This is the same reason she lost to Obama in 2008.

Voters like change.

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OSR stands with Israel
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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2016, 09:22:21 PM »

If Obama never signed that immigration executive order knowing it would be thrown out by the courts , and If obama didn't go too pc in his last two years trump wouldn't have risen more likely a regular gop candidate wins
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henster
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« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2016, 10:19:16 PM »

Hillary motivated Republicans like nobody ever could before, she is what held Trumps base together through all of his scandals. Do you really see Rs flooding to polls to vote against Biden?
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Gabagool102
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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2016, 10:21:34 PM »

When you don't focus on 70% of the electorate and ONLY go after minorities and women. Did they serious think Tim Kaine would solve the White male problem? Also alienating white voters citing, "Racism" "Sexism" "Homophobic" etc, hope Dem's realize people don't like being called this and when you screw 70% of the electorate then you lose, pretty simple.
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TomC
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2016, 11:12:48 PM »

1. Ethics matters
2. The dem message needs a bit more populism, not just economic populism but who controls the government populism. Hard sell for Clinton to make.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2016, 11:28:03 PM »

Fuzzy, I don't think your "if the electoral college wasn't in place, Trump still would have won because he would have shifted his campaign strategy to win the popular vote" makes any sense, because Trump had a totally nonsensical campaign strategy where he was pissing away time in Washington DC, etc.
We'll never know if Trump would have won the popular vote if that were how the race was decided.  But I'm sure that Trump would have spent more resources in areas that haven't seen a Presidential campaign in years.  As would Hillary, for that matter.

As for Trump having a totally nonsensical campaign strategy, that's kind of hard to substantiate, given that he won the Presidential election.  He won ugly, but he won, and his coattails pulled a number of vulnerable Republicans out of the fire to victory.  That's usually considered an indication of a smart campaign strategy on its face.
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J. J.
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2016, 11:29:40 PM »

She was a bad candidate. Period:

1. No charisma
2. Not very likeable
3. Comes off as an opportunist
4. Seen as a huge liar. For whatever reason Trump seemed to get a pass (or more of a pass) on this despite lying far more than her, and far more shamelessly. But, you know, it is what it is.
5. Seen as corrupt
6. For so many people, seemed to embody almost everything they hated about politics, a problem which was magnified in an election built around populist anger / a repudiation of business as usual.


And (drum roll please)  last but not least:

7. She had 54819290056 problems/scandals/whatever! Whether or not you consider these "scandals" real or just blown out of proportion, people thought they were important and it contributed immensely to her character problems. She spent almost the entire election defending herself against one scandal after another!


You could say the same thing about Trump, except perhaps the first one.  Smiley

I would however add these two things:

8.  Moved too far to the left.  She was basically running against Bernie Sanders, still.  She need to pivot and never did.

9.  This might come into the charisma aspect, but Trump seemed human, and a bit spontaneous.  Flawed, but human. Clinton seemed  rehearsed, at times robotic. 

10.  Clinton looked incompetent.  Looking at her email situation, she was either lying or incompetent.  She chose incompetent.  Look at the state of foreign relations, she looked incompetent.  Clinton was a known quantity, but in looking at her record, it frankly was not a successful one as Secretary of State.  The seeds of her defeat were planted in the Arab Spring. 
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Person Man
Angry_Weasel
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2016, 08:52:38 AM »

She was a bad candidate. Period:

1. No charisma
2. Not very likeable
3. Comes off as an opportunist
4. Seen as a huge liar. For whatever reason Trump seemed to get a pass (or more of a pass) on this despite lying far more than her, and far more shamelessly. But, you know, it is what it is.
5. Seen as corrupt
6. For so many people, seemed to embody almost everything they hated about politics, a problem which was magnified in an election built around populist anger / a repudiation of business as usual.


And (drum roll please)  last but not least:

7. She had 54819290056 problems/scandals/whatever! Whether or not you consider these "scandals" real or just blown out of proportion, people thought they were important and it contributed immensely to her character problems. She spent almost the entire election defending herself against one scandal after another!


You could say the same thing about Trump, except perhaps the first one.  Smiley

I would however add these two things:

8.  Moved too far to the left.  She was basically running against Bernie Sanders, still.  She need to pivot and never did.

9.  This might come into the charisma aspect, but Trump seemed human, and a bit spontaneous.  Flawed, but human. Clinton seemed  rehearsed, at times robotic. 

10.  Clinton looked incompetent.  Looking at her email situation, she was either lying or incompetent.  She chose incompetent.  Look at the state of foreign relations, she looked incompetent.  Clinton was a known quantity, but in looking at her record, it frankly was not a successful one as Secretary of State.  The seeds of her defeat were planted in the Arab Spring. 
It looked really good at first. Who wants a world with totalitarian state sponsors of terror? I think the situation had a lot to do with luck rather than competence. Even when people thought things were going well. The problem is that totalitarian states ot there are like alcohol, weed, and soon Trump. They are the cause and solution to all of your problems.

About the "too far to the left" thing. It seems she took a logical and solid position on health and child care but she wanted to tack the minimum wage to about 80% of median worker income instead of 30% now. What was popular everywhere, about 50-60% of median worked in the referendums. That's about as highvas you can go I think without many issues. There were also issues about "free college" when there are already good repayment options available. The two things I would have pushed is tax relief for people getting thier public loans forgiven (so they dont have to declare bankruptcy when they are saving for retirement) and allowing bankruptcy for private loans.
And in 2020, I would run on reinstating Obama's overtime rules if Trump deregulates it.
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Erich Maria Remarque
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2016, 09:00:52 AM »

If Obama never signed that immigration executive order knowing it would be thrown out by the courts , and If obama didn't go too pc in his last two years trump wouldn't have risen more likely a regular gop candidate wins
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2016, 09:03:24 AM »

Once again, the people are vastly overestimate "the platform."

Let's not kid ourselves. Most of the people who voted, whather Republican or Democrat, did not pay a close attention to it. It's hard to understand for us, political junkies, but it's true. 
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Person Man
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2016, 09:22:57 AM »

Once again, the people are vastly overestimate "the platform."

Let's not kid ourselves. Most of the people who voted, whather Republican or Democrat, did not pay a close attention to it. It's hard to understand for us, political junkies, but it's true. 

A lot of ordinary people go on about them, though. Some of them might sound like conspiracy thoerists but a lot of them are inspired by the platform.
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