Were communist rebels in WWII freedom fighters?

[they don't love you like i love you]

Stupid right wingers say communist rebels are never freedom fighters. But what about the communist partisans in Yugoslavia and the communist resistance fighters to Mussolini's regime in Italy? I say they were definately freedom fighters.

[The Duke]

You have a one track mind.

[PBrunsel]

No. Seeing the Yugoslav Reds were just as bad as Il Duce anyway. Didn't we have to send aide via the Marshall Plan to stop them?

[John Dibble]

Fighting to replace one form of tyranny with another isn't quite freedom fighting.

[dazzleman]

Fighting to replace one form of tyranny with another isn't quite freedom fighting.

^^^^^

I'd be willing to say some of them thought they were freedom fighters, but in reality they fought to replace one awful government with another.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Tito never set up death camps for Jews or Serbs like Hitler or the Ustase.

[John Dibble]

"Evil thinks not to beguile us by unveiling the terrible truth of its festering intent, but comes, instead, disguised in the diaphanous robes of virtue, whispering sweet sounding lies intended to seduce us into the dark bed of our eternal graves." ~ Terry Goodkind

[Gustaf]

I voted yes. It depends on your definition, but a Communist movement can certainly create a freer state and in its characteristics be anti-oppression.

[John Dibble]

I voted yes. It depends on your definition, but a Communist movement can certainly create a freer state and in its characteristics be anti-oppression.

No communist state is a free state.

[12th Doctor]

No.  Just like Stalin, they were simply fighting for a different kind of dictatorship.

[they don't love you like i love you]

No.  Just like Stalin, they were simply fighting for a different kind of dictatorship.

Tito's Yugoslavia was nothing like Stalin's Soviet Union.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No.  Just like Stalin, they were simply fighting for a different kind of dictatorship.

Tito's Yugoslavia was nothing like Stalin's Soviet Union.

It was still a pretty grim place

[they don't love you like i love you]

Well Yugoslavia was always a mess and probably should've never existed as a nation anyway. Prior to WWII it was a pretty nasty royalist dictatorship and during WWII a bunch of Croation nationalists sided with the Nazis and set up a puppet state that committed atrocities that put the Nazis to shame. The communists were by far the best choice in that area.

[ilikeverin]

"Evil thinks not to beguile us by unveiling the terrible truth of its festering intent, but comes, instead, disguised in the diaphanous robes of virtue, whispering sweet sounding lies intended to seduce us into the dark bed of our eternal graves." ~ Terry Goodkind

Does Terry Goodkind turn you into a libertarian?  I bought Wizard's First Rule (I'll read it when I'm done readin gmy current series), and I don't want to be corrupted O_O

[John Dibble]

"Evil thinks not to beguile us by unveiling the terrible truth of its festering intent, but comes, instead, disguised in the diaphanous robes of virtue, whispering sweet sounding lies intended to seduce us into the dark bed of our eternal graves." ~ Terry Goodkind

Does Terry Goodkind turn you into a libertarian?  I bought Wizard's First Rule (I'll read it when I'm done readin gmy current series), and I don't want to be corrupted O_O

No, and actually he doesn't get very preachy until the sixth book anyways. Still, you should read them so you might better understand an opposing viewpoint.

And the quote is true about more than just communism anyways - plenty of evil comes claiming that it is good. For instance, Islamic terrorists claim they are fighting a war in the name of god, but it does not make the true nature of their fight any different, it merely puts a face on it that some people will like.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Well John who was the best choice in Yugoslavia during WWII?

There were 3 factions:

Ustase: Croation nationalists. Sided with the Nazis and ran a Nazi puppet state, and planned on killing or forcibly removing any non-Croat from that state.

Chetniks: Serb nationalists and supporters of the Serb dominated royalty. Initially opposed the Nazis because of the connections to Ustase, but later eventually made a cease-fire, basically didn't care which side won and just wanted to return to a monarchist Serb-dominated Yugoslavia.

People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia: The communists. Tito's forces. Staunchly opposed to the Nazis and all forms of Fascism. Led by the Anti-Fascist Council of National Liberation of Yugoslavia. You'd be hard pressed to find a more staunchly anti-fascist historical figure than Tito. Later broke with Stalin and rest of the Eastern Bloc.

Who's the best?

[DanielX]

Nominally the Chetniks, although none sound especially desirable. Me, if I were anywhere near Yugoslavia in 1942, i'd make a break for Turkey - as fast as possible!

[they don't love you like i love you]

Nominally the Chetniks, although none sound especially desirable. Me, if I were anywhere near Yugoslavia in 1942, i'd make a break for Turkey - as fast as possible!

Turkey had a semi-fascist government that sympathized with the Axis. If you wanted to get away from the commies, your best bet would've probably been to go to Italy and join the guerilla resistance against Mussolini.

[Jake]

The best thing would be to give each group its own state. History shows us the countries formed arbitrarily like Yugoslavia was never turn out too well when there are diverse ethnic peoples living there.

[they don't love you like i love you]

The best thing would be to give each group its own state. History shows us the countries formed arbitrarily like Yugoslavia was never turn out too well when there are diverse ethnic peoples living there.

Yes, Yugoslavia probalby should've never existed and splitting it up would've been the best hypothetical option and later turned out to be inevitable. However at the time I would've not supported an independent Croatia as long as the Ustase were around. Near the end of the war in Europe FDR said that an independent Croatia should never exist. He probably wouldn't have though so 50 years later, but it's not hard to see why he would at the time.

[Gustaf]

I voted yes. It depends on your definition, but a Communist movement can certainly create a freer state and in its characteristics be anti-oppression.

No communist state is a free state.

I didn't say that. I said freer state. Tito's Yugoslavia, for instance, was a hell of a lot better place than say Nazi-Germany. Also, there's a difference between a state or a movement calling itself Communist and being it.

[Gustaf]

I liked the Chetniks though. The problem was that they joined, not the Nazis, but the Italians. It's an interesting note on the importance of ethnicity. Italians hate Croatians and Italy didn't like the fact that they were supporting them against the Serbs. Towards the end of the war Western support for the Chetniks was pulled due to their cooperation with Mussolini. That's largely the reason for Yugoslavia becoming Communist.

[John Dibble]

Well John who was the best choice in Yugoslavia during WWII?

There were 3 factions:

Ustase: Croation nationalists. Sided with the Nazis and ran a Nazi puppet state, and planned on killing or forcibly removing any non-Croat from that state.

Chetniks: Serb nationalists and supporters of the Serb dominated royalty. Initially opposed the Nazis because of the connections to Ustase, but later eventually made a cease-fire, basically didn't care which side won and just wanted to return to a monarchist Serb-dominated Yugoslavia.

People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia: The communists. Tito's forces. Staunchly opposed to the Nazis and all forms of Fascism. Led by the Anti-Fascist Council of National Liberation of Yugoslavia. You'd be hard pressed to find a more staunchly anti-fascist historical figure than Tito. Later broke with Stalin and rest of the Eastern Bloc.

Who's the best?

Well, first off you have clearly put in a lot of bias in your descriptions, especially trying to show off the last in a positive light. Second, they all sucked, but I'd probably say the Chetniks were the 'best' out of three horrible options. Communism and facism are both tyrannical forms of government by their very natures, so just because people who supported one opposed the other doesn't mean that one of them is good - they are both evil. Need I remind you that many Nazis opposed communism, and many attrocities were commited under communism too.

[they don't love you like i love you]

But Titoism is far different from Stalinism. Stalin had many of his officers executed he suspected of being Titoists. Tito broke with Stalin in 1948 and then started a movement of countries that would support neither the Soviet Union or the West/NATO. He was hardly your typical communist.

It's an interesting note on the importance of ethnicity. Italians hate Croatians and Italy didn't like the fact that they were supporting them against the Serbs.

Well technically the Nazis should've hated Croats too, since they were Slavs, which they considered all inferior, but to allow the Croats to side with them both sides fudged ethnic history and claimed that Croats were not really Slavs but rather the descendents of an ancient race of people who lived in the mountains before the Slavs came. No real evidence for this, but they didn't care. The Nazis weren't very consistent in their ethnic and genetic theories, the Roma (gypsies) were just as purely Aryan as they were.

[John Dibble]

But Titoism is far different from Stalinism. Stalin had many of his officers executed he suspected of being Titoists. Tito broke with Stalin in 1948 and then started a movement of countries that would support neither the Soviet Union or the West/NATO. He was hardly your typical communist.

Does it matter? Sure, there are degrees in communism - Cuba isn't as bad as North Korea, for instance - as with any other tyrannical philosophy, but communism as a form of government is always tyranny.