Trump speaks with the President of Taiwan, risking rift with China

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

China's foreign minister Wang Yi has made his first official comment:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Nice to see someone staying calm. This was just a phone call. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Blue3]

Trump is doubling-down on Taiwan on Twitter, sounding like a internet troll who just took his first class in international politics, while the Chinese FM calls it a "cheap shot" by Taiwan to manipulate Trump into blundering (sounds like they're implying they know Trump is an ignoramus, and implying Taiwan was mean to Trump by baiting him into this and going over his head). Trump is already a laughing stock. At least it's better than China doing something rash in response.

[JJC]

Trump is doubling-down on Taiwan on Twitter, sounding like a internet troll who just took his first class in international politics, while the Chinese FM calls it a "cheap shot" by Taiwan to manipulate Trump into blundering (sounds like they're implying they know Trump is an ignoramus, and implying Taiwan was mean to Trump by baiting him into this and going over his head). Trump is already a laughing stock. At least it's better than China doing something rash in response.

The 'elites' have been calling Trump a laughing stock since his escalator ride to destiny.

He has since defeated the GOP establishment, the Dem establishment, the Bush machine, the Clinton machine, and the industrial media complex. One day they might learn to stop underestimating his as a bumbling buffoon. They think Trump is an ideologue, when the truth couldn't be any further.

Trump is a pragmatist of the highest order. If you want to understand him, you have to understand that he is first and foremost a businessman, thinks like a businessman, and will use any means necessary to come out on top. He's not a politician and he doesn't care how the 'game' is supposed to be played.

Trump doesn't care about these social/political norms that all politicians are supposed to follow, where even the president has an expected part to play. Instead he sees a goal he wants to accomplish, and then does what is necessary to accomplish it. He doesn't maneuver the chess pieces; he flips the board off the table completely. And the 'elites' have no idea how to respond.

Take China for example. Trump wants to renegotiate trade deals with China. And as with any negotiation between two entities, you have to first establish 1) the tone of the negotiation and 2) the context of the deal.

If Trump was continuously amiable towards China, then the Chinese would push hard to get what they wanted, fully expecting the US President to rubber stamp their agendas (especially when American presidents/politicians idiotically announce that they are unwilling to risk damaging American/Chinese relations). The Chinese would expect that the US president would be unwilling to damage/risk trade with their largest trading partner, and would use this fact to their advantage, pushing through deals that they know most Presidents wouldn't refuse in fear of retaliation. By declaring that we are unwilling to walk away from any China trade deal, this immediately puts us at a disadvantage at the negotiating table.

With Trump though, that notion of inevitable acceptance to their preferred policies fly out the window. If Trump is willing to break a decades long tradition and make friendly relations with Taiwan, then he might be willing to cut off major trade with China, consequences be damned. This completely reverses the context of the negotiation. Now, China has much more to lose because the US might very well turn away from trade deals with Trump as president. Now, it's the Chinese who have to be careful with damaging relations with the US for fear of massive tariffs on imported goods. Obama wouldn't take a risk like this. Romney wouldn't take a risk like this. But Trump might just be willing to do it. The Chinese just don't know, which puts them at a disadvantage.

It's the age old adage; "Keep your opponents guessing"

[2952-0-0]

One wrinkle with that theory: the Trump Organization has $950 million in publicly reported debts to the Bank of China alone, and there are rumours of far higher debts to other Chinese state-controlled entities.

"So, Donnie, I see you have a nice real estate empire you built. Shame if anything happened to it."

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump is doubling-down on Taiwan on Twitter, sounding like a internet troll who just took his first class in international politics, while the Chinese FM calls it a "cheap shot" by Taiwan to manipulate Trump into blundering (sounds like they're implying they know Trump is an ignoramus, and implying Taiwan was mean to Trump by baiting him into this and going over his head). Trump is already a laughing stock. At least it's better than China doing something rash in response.

The 'elites' have been calling Trump a laughing stock since his escalator ride to destiny.

He has since defeated the GOP establishment, the Dem establishment, the Bush machine, the Clinton machine, and the industrial media complex. One day they might learn to stop underestimating his as a bumbling buffoon. They think Trump is an ideologue, when the truth couldn't be any further.

Trump is a conarpragmatist of the highest order. If you want to understand him, you have to understand that he is first and foremost a business conman, thinks like a businessconman, and will use any means necessary to come out on top. He's not a politician and he doesn't care how the 'game' is supposed to be played.

Trump doesn't care about these social/political norms that all politicianscivilized human beings are supposed to follow, where even the president has an expected part to play. Instead he sees a goal he wants to accomplish, and then does what is necessary to accomplish it. He doesn't maneuver the chess pieces; he flips the board off the table completely. And the 'elites' have no idea how to respond.

I was correcting it for you, but I had to stop there, because you just (correctly) described President-elect Pussygrabber as the punchline of a joke:


Pussygrabber is the ultimate example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and also of the person who runs out in front of the band with a baton and then think they're leading the parade.

[JJC]

Trump is doubling-down on Taiwan on Twitter, sounding like a internet troll who just took his first class in international politics, while the Chinese FM calls it a "cheap shot" by Taiwan to manipulate Trump into blundering (sounds like they're implying they know Trump is an ignoramus, and implying Taiwan was mean to Trump by baiting him into this and going over his head). Trump is already a laughing stock. At least it's better than China doing something rash in response.

The 'elites' have been calling Trump a laughing stock since his escalator ride to destiny.

He has since defeated the GOP establishment, the Dem establishment, the Bush machine, the Clinton machine, and the industrial media complex. One day they might learn to stop underestimating his as a bumbling buffoon. They think Trump is an ideologue, when the truth couldn't be any further.

Trump is a conarpragmatist of the highest order. If you want to understand him, you have to understand that he is first and foremost a business conman, thinks like a businessconman, and will use any means necessary to come out on top. He's not a politician and he doesn't care how the 'game' is supposed to be played.

Trump doesn't care about these social/political norms that all politicianscivilized human beings are supposed to follow, where even the president has an expected part to play. Instead he sees a goal he wants to accomplish, and then does what is necessary to accomplish it. He doesn't maneuver the chess pieces; he flips the board off the table completely. And the 'elites' have no idea how to respond.

I was correcting it for you, but I had to stop there, because you just (correctly) described President-elect Pussygrabber as the punchline of a joke:


Pussygrabber is the ultimate example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and also of the person who runs out in front of the band with a baton and then think they're leading the parade.

'Political correctness' was literally invented as a way to silence opposing opinions.

Civilized human beings do not shut down dissent, create 'safe spaces', engage in mass 'cultural shaming', threaten people with violence, riot, or falsely accuse others of bigotry (whilst dividing people by race and sex). They do not attempt to destroy people's careers or livelihoods for holding the 'wrong' view.

And for the record, whether Trump is civilized or not is irrelevant to my point.

[dead0man]

Some of you are scared of a war...with the PRC?  Why would they attack us (and kill themselves) over this?  They know what would happen to them if they do, so they won't.  The PLA still sucks, no matter how much sh**t they steal, they still suck at manufacturing cutting edge tech.  They still have a sh**tty military culture.  The new equipment they do have are poor copies, but most of their junk is still old Soviet gear (or sh**tty copies of same).

and I see somebody parroting the PRC as being capitalist again...it's not.  Stop saying that.


If, for whatever reason, we suddenly stopped trading with the PRC it would suck.  Some cheap sh**t would get way more expensive for a time and then settle down to a slightly higher than before price.  OH NO!  Meanwhile the world is ending on mainland China.  A trade war initiated by the PRC is just as unlikely as a shooting war.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

China can bitch and moan all they want.  We send a ton of military equipment to Taiwan and barely a peep but a phone call?  OMFG.

[ApatheticAustrian]

China can bitch and moan all they want.  We send a ton of military equipment to Taiwan and barely a peep but a phone call?  OMFG.

this is all about diplomacy.

china doesn't care about weapons...they won't help taiwan anyway.

but if the us sees taiwan as an independent "chinese" nation - this is embarassing.

[Deblano]

China's foreign minister Wang Yi has made his first official comment:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Nice to see someone staying calm. This was just a phone call. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nope, this just started WWIII because China clearly has the temperament of coke and mentos mixed together. /s

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

China can bitch and moan all they want.  We send a ton of military equipment to Taiwan and barely a peep but a phone call?  OMFG.

this is all about diplomacy.

china doesn't care about weapons...they won't help taiwan anyway.

but if the us sees taiwan as an independent "chinese" nation - this is embarassing.

China can whine all it wants (and they have filed a "protest" or whatever).......it won't change one thing. 

[Deblano]

I really dislike Trump but this story is a joke. Nobody cares and even China dosent dare call out Trump on it

The only way US-China start WWIII over Taiwan is if Taiwan formally declares independence from the PRC and "forces China's hand" into invading Taiwan as part of PRC military doctrine.

This was not the smartest move from Trump, to say the least, but there was a lot of panicking, huffing, and puffing from the media as usual.

[Santander]

Why do people care about insulting China, an evil, subhuman country which needs to be put back in its place? Western leaders have let the panda out of the box and watched idly as it sh**ts all over our faces. What are they going to do? Start a trade war? Start a real war? The Chinese government would lose all of their fragile legitimacy fast if they did either of those.

Even if they did, since when is it right to choose security or wealth over doing what is right? If America is not willing to sacrifice security or wealth to do what is right, then it is not even an idea or a nation worth preserving. Decades of our leaders bowing down to the savages in Beijing have not only let down the 23 million freedom-loving people of Taiwan, but they have let us down because our policy on China falls well short of the standards America should be setting for itself. If America leads, the world will follow.

[Mehmentum]

China can bitch and moan all they want.  We send a ton of military equipment to Taiwan and barely a peep but a phone call?  OMFG.

this is all about diplomacy.

china doesn't care about weapons...they won't help taiwan anyway.

but if the us sees taiwan as an independent "chinese" nation - this is embarassing.

China can whine all it wants (and they have filed a "protest" or whatever).......it won't change one thing. 

Well, its not like they're going to go to war with us, or start a trade war (we're far more likely to do that), but its very possible that this changes China's geopolitical strategy.  If they see the US growing closer to Taiwan, China has every incentive to beef up its military, attempt to be economically independent of the US (likely by stimulating domestic demand for their products) and gain influence in neighboring nations.

But hey, they're not going to nuke us, so no problem I guess?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

China can bitch and moan all they want.  We send a ton of military equipment to Taiwan and barely a peep but a phone call?  OMFG.

this is all about diplomacy.

china doesn't care about weapons...they won't help taiwan anyway.

but if the us sees taiwan as an independent "chinese" nation - this is embarassing.

China can whine all it wants (and they have filed a "protest" or whatever).......it won't change one thing. 

Well, its not like they're going to go to war with us, or start a trade war (we're far more likely to do that), but its very possible that this changes China's geopolitical strategy.  If they see the US growing closer to Taiwan, China has every incentive to beef up its military, attempt to be economically independent of the US (likely by stimulating domestic demand for their products) and gain influence in neighboring nations.

But hey, they're not going to nuke us, so no problem I guess?

They want good relations with us, we want good relations with them, nothing will change.  When American Presidents lecture China incessantly and publicly about human rights violations they just take it with a grain of salt and move on.  This too shall pass.

[Frodo]

Trump is doubling-down on Taiwan on Twitter, sounding like a internet troll who just took his first class in international politics, while the Chinese FM calls it a "cheap shot" by Taiwan to manipulate Trump into blundering (sounds like they're implying they know Trump is an ignoramus, and implying Taiwan was mean to Trump by baiting him into this and going over his head). Trump is already a laughing stock. At least it's better than China doing something rash in response.

The 'elites' have been calling Trump a laughing stock since his escalator ride to destiny.

He has since defeated the GOP establishment, the Dem establishment, the Bush machine, the Clinton machine, and the industrial media complex. One day they might learn to stop underestimating his as a bumbling buffoon. They think Trump is an ideologue, when the truth couldn't be any further.

Trump is a pragmatist of the highest order. If you want to understand him, you have to understand that he is first and foremost a businessman, thinks like a businessman, and will use any means necessary to come out on top. He's not a politician and he doesn't care how the 'game' is supposed to be played.

Trump doesn't care about these social/political norms that all politicians are supposed to follow, where even the president has an expected part to play. Instead he sees a goal he wants to accomplish, and then does what is necessary to accomplish it. He doesn't maneuver the chess pieces; he flips the board off the table completely. And the 'elites' have no idea how to respond.

Take China for example. Trump wants to renegotiate trade deals with China. And as with any negotiation between two entities, you have to first establish 1) the tone of the negotiation and 2) the context of the deal.

If Trump was continuously amiable towards China, then the Chinese would push hard to get what they wanted, fully expecting the US President to rubber stamp their agendas (especially when American presidents/politicians idiotically announce that they are unwilling to risk damaging American/Chinese relations). The Chinese would expect that the US president would be unwilling to damage/risk trade with their largest trading partner, and would use this fact to their advantage, pushing through deals that they know most Presidents wouldn't refuse in fear of retaliation. By declaring that we are unwilling to walk away from any China trade deal, this immediately puts us at a disadvantage at the negotiating table.

With Trump though, that notion of inevitable acceptance to their preferred policies fly out the window. If Trump is willing to break a decades long tradition and make friendly relations with Taiwan, then he might be willing to cut off major trade with China, consequences be damned. This completely reverses the context of the negotiation. Now, China has much more to lose because the US might very well turn away from trade deals with Trump as president. Now, it's the Chinese who have to be careful with damaging relations with the US for fear of massive tariffs on imported goods. Obama wouldn't take a risk like this. Romney wouldn't take a risk like this. But Trump might just be willing to do it. The Chinese just don't know, which puts them at a disadvantage.

It's the age old adage; "Keep your opponents guessing"

So Donald Trump is actually Peter Baelish?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

People here know the Taiwanese population itaelf is divided on the China issue, right? They don't all want independence - some desperately want to reunify.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Trump is doubling-down on Taiwan on Twitter, sounding like a internet troll who just took his first class in international politics, while the Chinese FM calls it a "cheap shot" by Taiwan to manipulate Trump into blundering (sounds like they're implying they know Trump is an ignoramus, and implying Taiwan was mean to Trump by baiting him into this and going over his head). Trump is already a laughing stock. At least it's better than China doing something rash in response.

The 'elites' have been calling Trump a laughing stock since his escalator ride to destiny.

He has since defeated the GOP establishment, the Dem establishment, the Bush machine, the Clinton machine, and the industrial media complex. One day they might learn to stop underestimating his as a bumbling buffoon. They think Trump is an ideologue, when the truth couldn't be any further.

Trump is a conarpragmatist of the highest order. If you want to understand him, you have to understand that he is first and foremost a business conman, thinks like a businessconman, and will use any means necessary to come out on top. He's not a politician and he doesn't care how the 'game' is supposed to be played.

Trump doesn't care about these social/political norms that all politicianscivilized human beings are supposed to follow, where even the president has an expected part to play. Instead he sees a goal he wants to accomplish, and then does what is necessary to accomplish it. He doesn't maneuver the chess pieces; he flips the board off the table completely. And the 'elites' have no idea how to respond.

I was correcting it for you, but I had to stop there, because you just (correctly) described President-elect Pussygrabber as the punchline of a joke:


Pussygrabber is the ultimate example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and also of the person who runs out in front of the band with a baton and then think they're leading the parade.

'Political correctness' was literally invented as a way to silence opposing opinions.

Civilized human beings do not shut down dissent, create 'safe spaces', engage in mass 'cultural shaming', threaten people with violence, riot, or falsely accuse others of bigotry (whilst dividing people by race and sex). They do not attempt to destroy people's careers or livelihoods for holding the 'wrong' view.

Are you talking about Donald trump supporters who do all those things you mentioned?

[TDAS04]

As much as I despise Trump, I see no problem with this.

[dead0man]

As much as I despise Trump, I see no problem with this.

But China is mad, ain't you scared?  They could do something...like send a nasty letter to the UN (the UN's only weapon used against itself?  what are they going to do?  Probably send a longer nasty letter back).

[jaichind]

I think the PRC will be quite calm about this for the following reasons

1) They see Trump as a deal-maker and ergo they see this move as Trump trying to establish psychological advantage over them in the tough round of negotiations over strategic matters including trade in the years to come.  As a result the do not see this as a shift in policy but a symbolic threat which is something they engage in all the time and can properly understand. 

2) The real PRC fear is that something like this boost Tsai's position in ROC politics.  Tsai has taken a subtlety pro-independence line and have not accepted the 92 Consensus worked out between CCP and KMT (There is only One China but both sides can define who is that One China.)  The PRC wants to make sure that Tsai pays the political consequences of this (drive down her approval ratings with moderates on ROC.)  Given that Tsai has several ROC domestic blowups (Gay Marriage bill controversy, new proposed holiday system which is angering pro-DPP Union allies, proposed allowing Japanese goods from prefectures that were affected by the nuclear leaks in 2011 etc etc) her approval rating is falling rapidly so the PRC will mostly feel that Tsai's bump from this would be tiny and transient.  As a result there is no need to freak out.

As a result I suspect the PRC will bark a bit about this and then move on to getting ready to negotiate with Trump on all sorts of matters.  What they will see is Trump will be the hardest bargainer they have seen to date on the USA but one that can most likely get to a deal with to settle all sorts of strategic matters  with perhaps some sort of  "spheres-of-influences" deal that is basic in Great Power politics.

[2952-0-0]

^ Global Times has hinted that the PRC will retaliate by stealing a few of Taiwan's diplomatic partners to send Tsai a message there will be consequences for her act. There had been rumours that the Dominican Republic is on the verge of defecting, which the Chinese foreign ministry neither confirmed nor denied.

[JJC]

I think the PRC will be quite calm about this for the following reasons

1) They see Trump as a deal-maker and ergo they see this move as Trump trying to establish psychological advantage over them in the tough round of negotiations over strategic matters including trade in the years to come.  As a result the do not see this as a shift in policy but a symbolic threat which is something they engage in all the time and can properly understand. 

2) The real PRC fear is that something like this boost Tsai's position in ROC politics.  Tsai has taken a subtlety pro-independence line and have not accepted the 92 Consensus worked out between CCP and KMT (There is only One China but both sides can define who is that One China.)  The PRC wants to make sure that Tsai pays the political consequences of this (drive down her approval ratings with moderates on ROC.)  Given that Tsai has several ROC domestic blowups (Gay Marriage bill controversy, new proposed holiday system which is angering pro-DPP Union allies, proposed allowing Japanese goods from prefectures that were affected by the nuclear leaks in 2011 etc etc) her approval rating is falling rapidly so the PRC will mostly feel that Tsai's bump from this would be tiny and transient.  As a result there is no need to freak out.

As a result I suspect the PRC will bark a bit about this and then move on to getting ready to negotiate with Trump on all sorts of matters.  What they will see is Trump will be the hardest bargainer they have seen to date on the USA but one that can most likely get to a deal with to settle all sorts of strategic matters  with perhaps some sort of  "spheres-of-influences" deal that is basic in Great Power politics.

^This

[Mr. Morden]

Trump tweets in response to the controversy:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/805538149157969924
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/805539770864693253

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[2952-0-0]

I think the PRC will be quite calm about this for the following reasons

3) The US can offer Taiwan anything - military toys, more official visits, etc. It's up to Taiwan to do so. And China will simply say, "okay Tsai, go ahead. I dare you." And I don't think any Taiwanese president - even Lee - would be so foolish.