Question about polls - margin of sampling error
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  Question about polls - margin of sampling error
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ShapeShifter
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« on: April 26, 2004, 03:45:02 PM »
« edited: August 23, 2005, 04:12:10 PM by Dave Leip »

When polls say that the lead is within the poll's margin of sampling error what does that mean? Also, could the MOE be higher because of bad sampling?
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2004, 04:17:22 PM »
« Edited: April 26, 2004, 04:47:54 PM by The Vorlon »

Wow... A question I might be able to answer.. Cheesy

A poll has two types of error.

Systematic error:

Systematic error is when there is just something "wrong" with the way the poll is constructed.  

Probably the most common type in here is an improperly drawn sample.

To pick on one of the polls I love to hate, CBS news does somethng structually, fundementally wrong in that they use pure simple "random digit dialing" to get their 1000 or so phone numbers.

What is so bad about this you may ask....?

In a "perfect" sample ever VOTER (not phone number) would have an equal chance of being contacted.

Married couples (ie two votes) tend to have one phone number.

Single people living alone also tend to have one phone number.

Married people break strongly for the GOP, while singles break strongly for the Dems.

Because the ONE single voter has ONE phone line, while the TWO married voters have ONE phoneline, the single voter is twice as likely to be contacted as the married voter..

So CBS news structuarally, inherently, as a matter of poll design, has twice the chance of reaching single people (a strongly pro Democratic voting block) as they do of reaching married people (a strongly pro GOP block)

Guess what - CBS polls always wildly favor the Democrats... this is not a fluke... it is a structural flaw with their poll...

Of course this is a huge over simplification, in reality you have to take into account "second" lines for the teenagers, cell phones, etc... but the illistration is valid...

(Enroll in "Advanced Polling 623" - "how to draw a representative phone sample" - for more information)

A second structural error is a bad or biased question wording.

The classic example of this is the pro life / pro choice polling. (A poll that is, IMHO, just about impossible to do accurately)

For example a question asking if you :

"Favored the continued state funded and sactioned slaughter of unborn children"

will likely produce a somewhat different result that asking:

"Should the oppressive authority of the state be used to force women against their will to bear children"

Both of the above are examples of structural or systemic error.

Random Error

The second type is just "random" error due to sampling, it has not bias that favors one side over the other.

If you flip 100 coins in the air you don't get 50 heads and 50 tails, you usually get 53/47 or something like that, the result is no more likely to favor heads than tails.

Lets use an example of a poll that is 53% for A, and 47% for B with a margin of error of +/- 3%

There is a 68% chance that "A" is between 51.5 and 54.5%

There is a 68% chance that "B" is between 45.5% and 48.5%%

In this example, there is a 95% chance A is between 50 and 56%, with a similar 95% chance "B" is between 44% and 50%

As a very rough rule of thumb, if the "gap" between candidate A and B is less than half of the margin of error the two are pretty much tied.

If A beats B by more than 1/2 the MOE A is likely ahead by a bit

If A beats B by more than the MOE you can be pretty sure they are ahead... 19 times out of 20 anyway.. Cheesy

Typically, Systemic errors, in all but the very best polls, are larger than random errors.

Systemic errors are why there are University polls showing Bush +4 in New Jersey.

This concludes the introductory lession of Polling 101 - are they any questions...?

Cheesy

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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2004, 04:38:45 PM »
« Edited: April 26, 2004, 04:39:40 PM by Senator ShapeShifter »

Thanks Vorlon for the lesson. Grin

I did not get how you got 68% and 95% thing. I am going to re-read it and if I still don't understand I will probably ask you.

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The Vorlon
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2004, 04:45:53 PM »
« Edited: April 26, 2004, 04:46:36 PM by The Vorlon »

Thanks Vorlon for the lesson. Grin

I did not get how you got 68% and 95% thing. I am going to re-read it and if I still don't understand I will probably ask you.



BTW - Cangratulations "Senator" shapeshifter... Roll Eyes

68% is 1 standard deviation in a bi-nomial expansion
95% is 2 standard deviations in a binomial expansion

There is nothng "magical" about 68% and 95% - just two places where the math is easy Cheesy

assumes the questions is evenly divided (ie the "true" result is 50/50) as a practical matter untill you get to huge splits (say 70/30) the difference between the Binomial expansion error and the true error are minimal.
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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2004, 05:04:15 PM »

Thanks Vorlon for the lesson. Grin

I did not get how you got 68% and 95% thing. I am going to re-read it and if I still don't understand I will probably ask you.



BTW - Cangratulations "Senator" shapeshifter... Roll Eyes

68% is 1 standard deviation in a bi-nomial expansion
95% is 2 standard deviations in a binomial expansion

There is nothng "magical" about 68% and 95% - just two places where the math is easy Cheesy

assumes the questions is evenly divided (ie the "true" result is 50/50) as a practical matter untill you get to huge splits (say 70/30) the difference between the Binomial expansion error and the true error are minimal.

O now I understand. Smiley I was wondering, where the hell you got those number. Smiley

Thanks again for the info and the congradulation. Smiley

Senator Shapesh**tter.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2004, 05:12:18 PM »

Two questions Vorlon :

1. Why do I NEVER get called for any poll?
2. How do I get on a list or something to get called?
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2004, 05:20:36 PM »
« Edited: April 26, 2004, 05:21:39 PM by The Vorlon »

Two questions Vorlon :

1. Why do I NEVER get called for any poll?
2. How do I get on a list or something to get called?

Lets say there are 10 polling firms polling on any given night..

10 x (about) 4000 per poll = 40,000 people.

There are 280,000,000 citizens in the USA

40,000/280,000,000 means on any given night you have a 1 in 7,000 chance of being called. -

You will get called roughly once every 20 years or so...

It's like the lottery, except there is no prize Cheesy

You cannot get on a list to be called (at least not for "scientific" polls)  The key, unbreakable rule in polling is that the sample cannot be self selected ie you have to be randomly picked, and cannot volunteer.

This is why internet polls are useless - the people who vote choose, or not, to participate.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 05:22:05 PM »

Oh I wish I could get a call. I am on the Do Not Call registry does that affect things?
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2004, 05:29:16 PM »

Oh I wish I could get a call. I am on the Do Not Call registry does that affect things?

The "Do Not Call" law specifically exempts public opinion research, and other political activities, such as campaign calls, get out the vote, etc...

Hey, politicians lived and die by polls - of course they have been exempted by the law!
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