Another massively stupid aspect of the Clinton campaign... (user search)
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  Another massively stupid aspect of the Clinton campaign... (search mode)
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Author Topic: Another massively stupid aspect of the Clinton campaign...  (Read 2254 times)
HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,744
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« on: December 05, 2016, 05:42:48 PM »
« edited: December 05, 2016, 05:45:06 PM by HagridOfTheDeep »

I think it was easy to believe that all the progress the country had made on things like gay rights over the last eight years meant the country was heading full-steam towards becoming a more progressive place. I know I was feeling like "history" was happening in an irreversible way with more and more people jumping on board.

Turns out we were wrong. We didn't want to believe that these working-class whites just didn't give a damn about the rights of their even more vulnerable neighbours. All the progress of the last few years was just incidental because these people had chosen to trust Barack Obama over the corporatist establishment figure Mitt Romney. So this election was definitely a sh-tty way to learn that progress and justice are not inevitable, but... it's a valuable lesson.

Most white people don't really care about the rights of those who have been Othered. It's not that they're against social progress and equality. They're just willing to look past a pretty large degree of hatred, bigotry, and discrimination if it means they can feel like they're being "heard." I think it's awful and inexcusable, but it is what it is, and I guess it's not AS BAD as outright bigotry. But they've still enabled it.
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,744
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2016, 10:30:25 PM »

I think it was easy to believe that all the progress the country had made on things like gay rights over the last eight years meant the country was heading full-steam towards becoming a more progressive place. I know I was feeling like "history" was happening in an irreversible way with more and more people jumping on board.

Turns out we were wrong. We didn't want to believe that these working-class whites just didn't give a damn about the rights of their even more vulnerable neighbours. All the progress of the last few years was just incidental because these people had chosen to trust Barack Obama over the corporatist establishment figure Mitt Romney. So this election was definitely a sh-tty way to learn that progress and justice are not inevitable, but... it's a valuable lesson.

Most white people don't really care about the rights of those who have been Othered. It's not that they're against social progress and equality. They're just willing to look past a pretty large degree of hatred, bigotry, and discrimination if it means they can feel like they're being "heard." I think it's awful and inexcusable, but it is what it is, and I guess it's not AS BAD as outright bigotry. But they've still enabled it.

You're lecturing working Americans about the progress they made.  Isn't that a tad pretentious?  

I doubt you work for a living.  I doubt you have a family depending on you working.  Someday that may happen for you, but I doubt it's the case now.  And, yes, that is relevant.  I was as snotty as you toward folks I regarded as Archie Bunker types in my youth when I had no idea of the pressure one takes on when they support a family.

These hard-working Americans you so disparage have (for the most part) families to support.  Even if they're divorced, they have child support.  And they have been economically screwed.  I can take you to a place in Jackson, OH, where the Meridian Automotive plant once was.  The jobs are now in Mexico and the lot now has a retail shopping center that may provide 10 jobs that could support a family, where there was once a plant where there were hundreds of such jobs.  These folks have moved on, but not to something better (for the most part).  And, yet, you want them to support the Goddess of NAFTA as opposed to someone whose trade policies might actually help THEIR situation.  

They are, by the way, well aware that the "Othered" folks have no more care for the lot of these hard working Americans than you say they have for the "Othered" folks.  The "Othered" folks don't care about the welfare of them, or their families; they care about their own welfare.  Let's not attach virtue to the "Othered" folks that don't apply.  The "Othered" folks are hardly more altruistic than the folks you disparage.

You're proof that the Clinton crowd hasn't learned a thing about the past election.

Re-read my post and try again. I disparage the white working-class often, but I did not do so here. Unless you think it's disparaging to point out that they ultimately decided it was okay to vote for a bigot, even though they cast their ballots for reasons unrelated to their own degree of bigotry. And if so, I would respectfully ask what fantasy you're living in, because it's pretty clear that Donald Trump has said and done some pretty bigoted things. I would also add that this is an incredibly big concession for me to make, because it represents my attempt to at least give these voters the benefit of the doubt and concede that bigotry was not the motivating factor behind their decision to support Trump. Not everything has to be an argument, boo.

Anyhow, what I am explaining is why I think progressives did not see this loss coming and why the mistake was made. We assumed that the swing voters of the Rust Belt cared about the progress America had made with regards to social justice, and that it was the inevitable march forward to the right side of history. I'm not saying they should feel like they've seen progress personally (although the job numbers should speak for themselves). I'm saying the country did turn corners on things like gay rights. Turns out, though, that these Obama '12/Trump '16 voters didn't really give a sh-t about equal rights one way or the other. But Democrats were not really open to the possibility of the firewall falling because we thought the progressive march forward could only gain steam, not crumble away.

We were wrong, because it turns out that these people were never voting for the march forward that we thought they were voting for, even when they did vote Democrat. It was only ever about their own insecurities. Which yes—is how it seems anyone ever votes. We were naïve and took for granted the fact that different branding was needed to connect with those types (she did actually have solid policies for the white working class whether you care to admit it or not).

The election just sears a little more because of all the things they were willing to look past in Donald Trump to cater to their insecurities with their vote. And why they were willing to do so is the million-dollar, realistically unanswerable question.
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,744
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2016, 10:50:22 PM »

Re-read my post and try again. I disparage the white working-class often, but I did not do so here. Unless you think it's disparaging to point out that they ultimately decided it was okay to vote for a bigot, even though they cast their ballots for reasons unrelated to their own degree of bigotry.

I voted for an authoritarian elitist with a laughably hawkish foreign policy even though I am none of those things.

Would you hold me responsible for American casualties in a hypothetical Syrian war in the Clinton administration?

When you vote for a candidate, you enable that candidate's agenda because your vote is what helps put them in power. Is this news to you?

The difference is, it's hard to see how things like sexual assault, denying apartments to black people, and playing coy with the KKK could have any reasonable defense. On the other hand, there is plenty room for reasonable justifications in the hypothetical situation of an unfortunate war with Syria.
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,744
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2016, 10:57:24 PM »

How delusional can people be?

"It is okay to vote for a bigot"  -  Voting against bigotry is the privilege of the rich. The poor vote to earn decent wages & have a decent life


"Progressives assumed that Swing state rust belt voters cared more about social issues" - No they didn't. People have to incredibly stupid to even believe that. Any default Dem candidate by default is strong on social issues, you don't need Clinton for that. People cared about the economy in every major poll that was available

"Voters didn't give a sh** about gay rights" - Some of them do, but they care more about their lives than gay rights. And if they cared about gay rights they would have voted en mass for Sanders over Clinton in a landslide victory.

"We were naive etc" - Not everyone of us. You guys were delusional, we were shouting after every debate & rally that Clinton should talk about infra n minimum wage etc. It is a matter of shame that Trump outflanked Clinton in Trade & talked about infra spending etc much more (core Dem point)

It is weird how much blame is placed on a rust belt voter for voting for Trump when there is no question mark on how pathetic of a candidate Clinton was.

I mean you're argument for winning is Gay Rights? Seriously??

These kind of posts are self-explanatory why Clinton lost - She literally had no positive economic message at a time the economy was the most important topic in almost every single poll !


Looking past your assholery, you are basically agreeing with me. I'm not saying the argument is "gay rights." I invoked gay rights because it was one clear example of the country moving forward. We assumed the the move forward represented an overall rejection of the GOP message and that the new majority rested with the Democrats... and that it would be very hard to "stop the train." I am saying as clearly as I can that WE WERE WRONG, so I'm not sure why people like you are getting so f-cking defensive.

Also, the quotes you are using are not even direct quotes from my posts. Not sure what that's about.
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