U.N. Passes Resolution Against Israel Settlements, U.S. Abstains

[Crumpets]

So, I have a question, and I don't want it to be a loaded question, even though it kind of is, so feel free to answer a more constructive question if you want:

What does Israel gain from building these settlements? Even if they have every legal right to do so, just as the "Ground Zero Mosque" people did, what is the motivation which makes those building the settlements say "yes, we get that it's unpopular with the local Palestinians and Muslims, and yes, it provokes the ire of many of our neighbors, but the reason we need to build these settlements here and now is __________"?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

So, I have a question, and I don't want it to be a loaded question, even though it kind of is, so feel free to answer a more constructive question if you want:

What does Israel gain from building these settlements? Even if they have every legal right to do so, just as the "Ground Zero Mosque" people did, what is the motivation which makes those building the settlements say "yes, we get that it's unpopular with the local Palestinians and Muslims, and yes, it provokes the ire of many of our neighbors, but the reason we need to build these settlements here and now is __________"?

Well, a big part of this is that many of these are historically Jewish cities home to sacred sites.

And keep in mind that this despicable ruling includes all of Eastern Jerusalem in the "occupied territory". That's literally the heart of biblical Israel, including our holiest site. The Jewish areas of Jerusalem are not and will never be up for negotiation. So asserting their ongoing rights to those areas is a legitimate policy position.

[America Needs R'hllor]

So, I have a question, and I don't want it to be a loaded question, even though it kind of is, so feel free to answer a more constructive question if you want:

What does Israel gain from building these settlements? Even if they have every legal right to do so, just as the "Ground Zero Mosque" people did, what is the motivation which makes those building the settlements say "yes, we get that it's unpopular with the local Palestinians and Muslims, and yes, it provokes the ire of many of our neighbors, but the reason we need to build these settlements here and now is __________"?

Well, there are mostly two reasons for that- religion and ideology. Most people combine those factors, but for example, many secular immigrants from the USSR, are only ideological.
I guess you can imagine the religious reason- "this land is ours because god said so, we must build because muh promise". You'd imagime that would not be the official reason, and indeed, anyone who claims Netanyahu is nothing short of an atheist is lying to himself. But tge Jewish Home party, a major coalition party, does use it.
The ideological reason is more... Logical, I guess. Like my grandfather, who was by the way born in Soviet Russia and live most of his life there (I think that detail would interest Hnv), said- "we can't give any land back. They'll just want more, we can't trust them." There's a lot of people who, after all these times that Israel tried to negotiate a deal and the most common Palestinian response was refusal and more terror, just don't trust them anymore. They think there's no hope for an agreement, and thus, building settlements in 'our lands' is logical. They also might be fearing an agreement,  which could, in their opinion, bring a terrorist country within reach of places like Tel Aviv.

[Cubby]

I've (almost) always been a huge Obama supporter, but I'm disgusted by what he and Samantha Power did. Why are they helping Hamas? He might as well wrap up this resolution and give it to them as a birthday present.

I don't have an ounce of sympathy for the terrorists until they stop shooting rockets into Israel. They don't want land of their own, they want to push the Israeli Jews into the sea and wipe out the most successful state in the Middle East. 

I dislike Trump but I am SO glad he's on Israel's side, things are gonna get much better in 3 weeks. Obama and Netanyahu hate each other, but the former only had us abstain as a final "F-you" to the latter.

[I’m not Stu]

I support freezing settlements in order to keep the peace prospects alive, but I don't like how the UN treats Israel. Israel isn't a rogue state. Israel is always being wrongfully maligned when it's defense forces are defending the country from Hamas and attacks from other hostile forces.

[MaxQue]

Lmao @ the lefties here devaluing the A-word more and more by the minute. It's almost as worthless as "racist" nowadays. No one cares anymore. Good job, thank you!

I don't have any problem with the US acting and voting in their own interests, just as every single other nation does.

No smart person ever expects the U.S. (or any country, for that matter) to act altruistically. The point is that Obama's foreign policy of screwing over the U.S.' allies and aiding its enemies is not really in the country's interest at all.

The US is often the only major country in the world that stands up for Israel in the UN General Assembly. Don't even try to act like we haven't supported them. Even in this rare instance, this was an abstention.

Explain how angering an ally, destabilizing the peace process further, and putting defunding the UN on the table a month before the change of Presidents helped anyone.

It's hard to destabilize a process that does not exist.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Lmao @ the lefties here devaluing the A-word more and more by the minute. It's almost as worthless as "racist" nowadays. No one cares anymore. Good job, thank you!

Yeah, saying that current Israel is an apartheid is ridiculous. But if the West Bank is annexed, and the Palestinian residents aren't given full rights, that's apartheid.

The Palestinian Authority is already a fragmented bantustan with its residents not having full rights and with what rights they do have being subject to withdrawal at any time by the Israeli government.

But there's a major difference. Legally, they're not living in Israel, but under military rule.

If you follow that opinion, the settlements are being illegally built on non-Israeli land.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Lmao @ the lefties here devaluing the A-word more and more by the minute. It's almost as worthless as "racist" nowadays. No one cares anymore. Good job, thank you!

Yeah, saying that current Israel is an apartheid is ridiculous. But if the West Bank is annexed, and the Palestinian residents aren't given full rights, that's apartheid.

The Palestinian Authority is already a fragmented bantustan with its residents not having full rights and with what rights they do have being subject to withdrawal at any time by the Israeli government.

But there's a major difference. Legally, they're not living in Israel, but under military rule.

If you follow that opinion, the settlements are being illegally built on non-Israeli land.

Yeah. The settlements shouldn't be built. But in a future agreement, ypu can't destroy big towns or cities, so swapping of land will have to be done.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Lmao @ the lefties here devaluing the A-word more and more by the minute. It's almost as worthless as "racist" nowadays. No one cares anymore. Good job, thank you!

I don't have any problem with the US acting and voting in their own interests, just as every single other nation does.

No smart person ever expects the U.S. (or any country, for that matter) to act altruistically. The point is that Obama's foreign policy of screwing over the U.S.' allies and aiding its enemies is not really in the country's interest at all.

The US is often the only major country in the world that stands up for Israel in the UN General Assembly. Don't even try to act like we haven't supported them. Even in this rare instance, this was an abstention.

Explain how angering an ally, destabilizing the peace process further, and putting defunding the UN on the table a month before the change of Presidents helped anyone.

It's hard to destabilize a process that does not exist.

And now it never will again. The next time Hamas or the PA start up with provocation (like, you know, rocket fire on Hanukkah), Israel has ever reason to react with equal belligerence.

Obama just set the Middle East on fire over a grudge. Have fun with that.

[DavidB.]

So, I have a question, and I don't want it to be a loaded question, even though it kind of is, so feel free to answer a more constructive question if you want:

What does Israel gain from building these settlements? Even if they have every legal right to do so, just as the "Ground Zero Mosque" people did, what is the motivation which makes those building the settlements say "yes, we get that it's unpopular with the local Palestinians and Muslims, and yes, it provokes the ire of many of our neighbors, but the reason we need to build these settlements here and now is __________"?

I think I may be among the best suited people on this forum to answer this question since, you know, I engage in building these places. For me and the people who think like I do the simple truth is that it is our G-d-given land. The Israeli military liberating these areas in the 1967 war is a clear sign that we have entered a different era in terms of both world history and Jewish history, and that we are moving toward the coming of Mashiach (though we're absolutely not there yet). The notion of Eretz Yisrael, the G-d-given land of Israel, is important here, since giving it away would at least implicitly go against the idea that we find ourselves in these times.

But there is more at play here than just this messianic idea. Of course, Judea, Samaria and the disputed parts of Jerusalem are the cradle of Jewish history in our own land, certainly much more so than, say, the Negev or the Galil in undisputed Israel. The disputed areas are where Jewish history was made. Hevron is one of our holy cities, and the Tomb of the Patriarchs is a holy site. Shiloh is our former capital and nowadays it is called an "illegal settlement." The Temple Mount and Western Wall are technically in "East Jerusalem". Many Israeli (and non-Israeli) Jews, also among those who are not settlers, think it is outright absurd and a travesty of justice for foreign countries to decide where Jews can and cannot live in our own ancestral homeland. This is also something people who are not necessarily religious can believe in.

The idea that foreign countries can decide where Jews can and cannot build, then, is also often believed to run against one of the more fundamental pillars of Zionism, namely that Jews are finally independent and don't have to rely on whether the world has a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of us. This, of course, makes the U.N. and international law in general spectacularly unpopular, especially so because the U.N. is -- rightly, in my opinion -- perceived to ignore real injustices in the world.

The idea that the settlements would be an obstacle to peace is something most right-wing Israelis (and Jews) don't believe in. Before 1967 there were no settlements, yet there was no peace either. For us, the truth is that our presence in the Land of Israel in general is unwanted by Palestinians, on both sides of the green line. Few Israelis would accept the idea of Jews not moving into Israel anymore, or not building houses in Tel Aviv anymore, even if Palestinians don't like it, so we say: what's the big deal about building in Maale Adumim or Amona? I believe peace can only come when we accept each other's presence in the land; as long as Jews building houses in historically Jewish land is viewed as ~problematic~, peace cannot be achieved anyway.

Then there is the reality that the two-state solution would actively kill off the settler segment of society, including its ideological influence not only over politics, but also over society, the Israeli right, and the direction in which country is moving. Obviously these people would remain right-wingers, but the messianic idea of living in J&S as pioneers who lead a movement that will eventually move society in a better direction (i.e. their direction) will die, and some left-wingers are quite honest about this being a major goal of theirs. The more settlements we build and the more settlers there are in J&S, the less likely a 2SS becomes (indeed, I think it is impossible already), and therefore the left's goal to kill off this movement and its ideology cannot be achieved anymore and settlers will continue to influence society and the Israeli right -- even more so as demographics will become more and more positive for the religious right.

Side question to David:
I know you're from the Netherlands, but did you or your family moved there from the USSR since the late 80's? Just a sociological interest in some trend I recently spotted

No, but I totally understand why one would think so based on my political opinions (though I would likely be less of an ideological religious Zionist in that case.)

I'm sick of the US being attacked no matter what it does.

Irony overload.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

So apparently Obama and Hollande are scheming to impose a second resolution, this one ordering Israel to abide by third-party peace plans, before the term is over.

I'm almost wondering if Obama's goal here is to push things so far that the US-Israeli relationship cannot be repaired even under a new President. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point, besides him simply being a stupid, vengeful person who doesn't understand foreign relations.

[DavidB.]

So apparently Obama and Hollande are scheming to impose a second resolution, this one ordering Israel to abide by third-party peace plans, before the term is over.

I'm almost wondering if Obama's goal here is to push things so far that the US-Israeli relationship cannot be repaired even under a new President. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point, besides him simply being a stupid, vengeful person who doesn't understand foreign relations.

It is as if they live on another planet. No one will care about this or any upcoming resolution after January 20, and no one will take any steps to implement them. Meanwhile, the Israeli right will be emboldened, which may lead to the immediate annexation of Maale Adumim after Trump takes office. Great job, Obama!

[MaxQue]

So apparently Obama and Hollande are scheming to impose a second resolution, this one ordering Israel to abide by third-party peace plans, before the term is over.

I'm almost wondering if Obama's goal here is to push things so far that the US-Israeli relationship cannot be repaired even under a new President. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point, besides him simply being a stupid, vengeful person who doesn't understand foreign relations.

It is as if they live on another planet. No one will care about this or any upcoming resolution after January 20, and no one will take any steps to implement them. Meanwhile, the Israeli right will be emboldened, which may lead to the immediate annexation of Maale Adumim after Trump takes office. Great job, Obama!

Then, you'll have the blood of European Jews on your hands.

[DavidB.]

Then, you'll have the blood of European Jews on your hands.

[MaxQue]

Then, you'll have the blood of European Jews on your hands.

You're very aware any move like the ones you suggest will cause yet another anti-semitic flare in Europe, including attacks.

Note that's totally Bibi plan, making to rest of the world so dangerous for the Jewish people than they are forced to move in Israel.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Then, you'll have the blood of European Jews on your hands.

You're very aware any move like the ones you suggest will cause yet another anti-semitic flare in Europe, including attacks.

Note that's totally Bibi plan, making to rest of the world so dangerous for the Jewish people than they are forced to move in Israel.

That strikes me as a reason for Europe to take serious measures to protect their Jewish population and show they care about things like that, rather than a reason for Israel to back down after being pushed into a corner.

[DavidB.]

You're very aware any move like the ones you suggest will cause yet another anti-semitic flare in Europe, including attacks.

It's up to European governments to prevent that. Can't blame Israel for that, although I know antisemites always like to do so.

Note that's totally Bibi plan, making to rest of the world so dangerous for the Jewish people than they are forced to move in Israel.

I, for one, think one must be "totally" deranged to think this would be Bibi's plan, but ok. I do think it is G-d's plan, but that's something wholly different.

[MaxQue]

You're very aware any move like the ones you suggest will cause yet another anti-semitic flare in Europe, including attacks.

It's up to European governments to prevent that. Can't blame Israel for that, although I know antisemites always like to do so.

I'm not blaming Israel, I'm blaming Nethanyahu. If he the great defender of the Jewish people all around the world like he claims he is (and so lecturing world leaders about Jewish issues all the time), why does he follow policies that hurt the very people he claims to want to protect?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I, for one, think one must be "totally" deranged to think this would be Bibi's plan, but ok. I do think it is G-d's plan, but that's something wholly different.
[/quote]

I don't want to sound harsh or agressive, but if G-d plan is to make all Jewish people to move back to Israel, why are you still living in Netherlands? Aren't you disobeying G-d by staying in Europe?

[DavidB.]

I'm not blaming Israel, I'm blaming Nethanyahu. If he the great defender of the Jewish people all around the world like he claims he is (and so lecturing world leaders about Jewish issues all the time), why does he follow policies that hurt the very people he claims to want to protect?

It's not Netanyahu's responsibility to protect Jews in Europe, and as a Jew in Europe the last thing I would want is for Israel to act all cucked up internationally or domestically because of us. A strong Israel empowers Jews all over the world. A weak Israel weakens Jews all over the world.

I don't want to sound harsh or agressive, but if G-d plan is to make all Jewish people to move back to Israel, why are you still living in Netherlands? Aren't you disobeying G-d by staying in Europe?

This is none of your business, though I would be willing to discuss it with someone who is not hostile like you are.

[they don't love you like i love you]

How does a strong/weak Israel strengthen or weaken my Jewish friend who has full tattoo sleeves and is posting about Christmas gifts on Facebook this morning? Don't see how Israel impacts her livelihood in Columbia Heights, MN.

[DavidB.]

How does a strong/weak Israel strengthen or weaken my Jewish friend who has full tattoo sleeves and is posting about Christmas gifts on Facebook this morning? Don't see how Israel impacts her livelihood in Columbia Heights, MN.

Time for iggy, you're so boring.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

How does a strong/weak Israel strengthen or weaken my Jewish friend who has full tattoo sleeves and is posting about Christmas gifts on Facebook this morning? Don't see how Israel impacts her livelihood in Columbia Heights, MN.

See, when some pissant sociopath on the right or left gains power and decides that she needs to die because of what her genetic code says, the fact that there's a country of pissed-off Jews with nuclear weapons may just make said pissant sociopath think twice.

[they don't love you like i love you]

How does a strong/weak Israel strengthen or weaken my Jewish friend who has full tattoo sleeves and is posting about Christmas gifts on Facebook this morning? Don't see how Israel impacts her livelihood in Columbia Heights, MN.

See, when some pissant sociopath on the right or left gains power and decides that she needs to die because of what her genetic code says, the fact that there's a country of pissed-off Jews with nuclear weapons may just make said pissant sociopath think twice.

And that's an actual possibility in the US?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

How does a strong/weak Israel strengthen or weaken my Jewish friend who has full tattoo sleeves and is posting about Christmas gifts on Facebook this morning? Don't see how Israel impacts her livelihood in Columbia Heights, MN.

See, when some pissant sociopath on the right or left gains power and decides that she needs to die because of what her genetic code says, the fact that there's a country of pissed-off Jews with nuclear weapons may just make said pissant sociopath think twice.

And that's an actual possibility in the US?

According to a whole lot of people this year, absolutely. And it certainly was in 1996.

I'm skeptical. However, I'm not only concerned about the US. I very much like the same deterrent existing for Europe.

[MaxQue]

How does a strong/weak Israel strengthen or weaken my Jewish friend who has full tattoo sleeves and is posting about Christmas gifts on Facebook this morning? Don't see how Israel impacts her livelihood in Columbia Heights, MN.

See, when some pissant sociopath on the right or left gains power and decides that she needs to die because of what her genetic code says, the fact that there's a country of pissed-off Jews with nuclear weapons may just make said pissant sociopath think twice.

And that's an actual possibility in the US?

According to a whole lot of people this year, absolutely. And it certainly was in 1996.

I'm skeptical. However, I'm not only concerned about the US. I very much like the same deterrent existing for Europe.

Would be quite hard to use in Europe, I doubt the non-fascist neighbours would like having to deal with nuclear fallout on their territories,