Coup and counter coup?

[EnglishPete]

I found an interesting article here reflecting on what appears to be going on behind the scenes

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.unz.com/jpetras/the-coup-against-trump-and-his-military-wall-street-defense/

[EnglishPete]

I think the article is certainly right is its analysis of what forces are lining up on which side e.g. the CIA, much of the corporate elite and the 'mainstream' media are clearly lining up with the Democratic Party side whilst the FBI, Military and parts of the financial elites are lining up with Trump.

What are people's thoughts on this?

[DPKdebator]

I would be beyond furious if SJWs and Greens try and coup Trump out of office.

[EnglishPete]

I would be beyond furious if SJWs and Greens try and coup Trump out of office.

Well its clearly what they have been trying to do already. As part of this effort we have seen a blitz of anti-Trump propaganda in the 'mainstream' media questioning the legitimacy of his election, Anti Trump demonstrations organised by the usual suspects, the recount campaign and the recent 'faithless electors' campaign. Parallel to all this, and forming a crucial part of the propaganda campaign is the CIA's efforts to brand Trump's win the reselt of 'Russian hacks' and to call Trump a 'Russian puppet'.

Now the United States is a country where there is great social and psychological attachment to the Constitution and to doing things the constitutional way. This would make a coup done by extra legal means difficult. What would make such an extra legal coup impossible is that fact that Trump has spend over a year cultivating the support of the Military, the Police and the Border control and he seems to have been very successful at it. Military, police, FBI, Border control etc all seem to be very firmly in the Trump camp. All the security forces apart from the CIA in fact. (And as an extra bonus he's got the support of the NRA as well).

So an extra legal coup is out of the question. So it has to be done by legal means. This is not unknown in the Western hemisphere recent as such 'legal coups' have taken place in recent years in places like Brazil (only this year) and Honduras.

If they can find some route to preventing Trump from taking office that would be preferred, clearly that's what the, rather desperate recount and 'Hamilton electors' efforts were about. But failing that the next step is impeachment. As we have seen this year in Brazil, and indeed as we saw in the Bill Clinton impeachment proceedings, the way legislators vote in impeachment cases is much more to do with the politics of the case rather than the rights and wrongs of the case. Removal from office by impeachment would be difficult though as the Democrats are 19 short of the 67 senate votes needed to remove a President from office. So perhaps another legal or quasi legal means might be sought, as happened with the 2009 Honduras Coup that was supported by the Honduran Supreme Court.

[Devout Centrist]

Stop.

[DPKdebator]

Stop.

Stop what? EnglishPete is just expressing concern about what the article describes.

[EnglishPete]

Stop.

Stop what?

We're already seen people backing the recount effort and the 'Hamilton electors' effort to prevent Trump taking office. There has already been talk, including on this forum, of getting rid of Trump through impeachment. The CIA has clearly been on the the Clinton side in this election, just as the FBI and other security forces have been on the Trump side. The CIA, along with the Democratic party and the liberal 'mainstream' media have all been promoting the idea that Trump benefitted from an illegitimate Russian intervention in the campaign through hacking.

These are all facts, what exactly is it you want me to stop?

[EnglishPete]

Stop.

Stop what? EnglishPete is just expressing concern about what the article describes.

Exactly.

Or to put in another way. When we see an impeachment in a place like Brazil this year or Paraguay in 2012 take a president out of office. When we see the Honduran Supreme Court intervene against a sitting president in 2009. Or the Venezuelan Supreme Court block a Presidential recall vote just this year. When we see things like this in Latin America most people understand that the way these things go is not simply due to technical, purely legal reasons but is rather to do with major political conflicts within those countries, that propaganda plays a major role in these processes and that some of the political actors, and many of the political motives, are hidden from public view.

I would suggest that its silly to image that the US is immune to such things.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I mean, it's no less silly than the 20 threads saying Trump would never relinquish the presidency that we endlessly discussed.

Or for that matter, the completely false hot takes on Trump's agenda based on nothing of substance that were simply fearmongering.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

These comparisions are utterly silly. For example, outsing Lugo in Paraguay had all appearances of legality, but it was clear it was rairloading under the dubious charges. As of Brazil, the process was likely heavily manipulated as well. Hondruas was an outright military coup. Had the electors voted against Trump, it would be within their constitutional privy. I wouldn't approve of that out of principle, but still.

Also, can we finally decide whether FBI is in Trump's or Hillary's pocket?

[EnglishPete]

Pete, would you consider it to be a coup if Trump did a clearly illegal action and was impeached and convicted?

That's not how it works, as the other examples I mentioned clearly show. Plenty of US Presidents have done things that could be considered grounds for impeachment. If a majority in a legislature do not want a President impeached and convicted he won't be, no matter how guilty he is.

If they do want to impeach him and have the number for a guilty verdict that is what will happen even if they have to cook the charge up. that's the reality of the world, guilt or innocence will have very little to do with it.

[Lincoln Republican]

Give the seditionists the pen.

[EnglishPete]

Pete, would you consider it to be a coup if Trump did a clearly illegal action and was impeached and convicted?

That's not how it works, as the other examples I mentioned clearly show. Plenty of US Presidents have done things that could be considered grounds for impeachment. If a majority in a legislature do not want a President impeached and convicted he won't be, no matter how guilty he is.

If they do want to impeach him and have the number for a guilty verdict that is what will happen even if they have to cook the charge up. that's the reality of the world, guilt or innocence will have very little to do with it.

I know that's not how it usually works, if it was a situation of clear guilt he would just resign. However, I feel like a lot of you Trump supporters are ready to fight for him no matter what, even if he breaks the laws.

No the point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether Presidents break the law or not, that's not a reason Presidents resign. They can be as innocent as the snow (unlikely) and if there is a majority who want to impeach him and enough votes to find him guilty he will be found guilty, a charge will be dreamed up if necessary. then he might resign to avoid impeachment (as Nixon did). He can be guilty as hell and if the votes aren't there for an impeachment or for a guilty verdict then he will serve out his term with no impeachment.

To give a little example and contrast from history

Watergate building in burgled

Result: nothing is taken

Burglers get caught

Nixon finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Woodward and Bernstein uncover the cover up.

Woodward and Bernstein are proclaimed heroes by the Democrats and the liberal media. Nixon is proclaimed a cheat and a crook by the Democrats and liberal media. Impeachment is planned and Nixon resigns to avoid this.


Thirty years earlier


Communist agents infiltrate the US State Department and other government bodies

Result: Serious secrets are stolen by some agents and given to America's enemies. Other agents successfully work to influence policy in a way that helps the Soviet Union and does severe harm to the free world and the human race as a whole

FBI uncovers and identifies these communist agents

Truman finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Joe McCarthy uncovers the cover up

Truman is proclaimed a hero and the Democrats start immediate attempts to railroad McCarthy who they and the liberal media proclaim a crook and a liar. This eventually succeeds four years later.


You see what I mean?

[Pericles]

Oh for crying out loud.

[Devout Centrist]

Pete, would you consider it to be a coup if Trump did a clearly illegal action and was impeached and convicted?

That's not how it works, as the other examples I mentioned clearly show. Plenty of US Presidents have done things that could be considered grounds for impeachment. If a majority in a legislature do not want a President impeached and convicted he won't be, no matter how guilty he is.

If they do want to impeach him and have the number for a guilty verdict that is what will happen even if they have to cook the charge up. that's the reality of the world, guilt or innocence will have very little to do with it.

I know that's not how it usually works, if it was a situation of clear guilt he would just resign. However, I feel like a lot of you Trump supporters are ready to fight for him no matter what, even if he breaks the laws.

No the point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether Presidents break the law or not, that's not a reason Presidents resign. They can be as innocent as the snow (unlikely) and if there is a majority who want to impeach him and enough votes to find him guilty he will be found guilty, a charge will be dreamed up if necessary. then he might resign to avoid impeachment (as Nixon did). He can be guilty as hell and if the votes aren't there for an impeachment or for a guilty verdict then he will serve out his term with no impeachment.

To give a little example and contrast from history

Watergate building in burgled

Result: nothing is taken

Burglers get caught

Nixon finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Woodward and Bernstein uncover the cover up.

Woodward and Bernstein are proclaimed heroes by the Democrats and the liberal media. Nixon is proclaimed a cheat and a crook by the Democrats and liberal media. Impeachment is planned and Nixon resigns to avoid this.


Thirty years earlier


Communist agents infiltrate the US State Department and other government bodies

Result: Serious secrets are stolen by some agents and given to America's enemies. Other agents successfully work to influence policy in a way that helps the Soviet Union and does severe harm to the free world and the human race as a whole

FBI uncovers and identifies these communist agents

Truman finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Joe McCarthy uncovers the cover up

Truman is proclaimed a hero and the Democrats start immediate attempts to railroad McCarthy who they and the liberal media proclaim a crook and a liar. This eventually succeeds four years later.


You see what I mean?

Lol

[Wells]

Pete, would you consider it to be a coup if Trump did a clearly illegal action and was impeached and convicted?

That's not how it works, as the other examples I mentioned clearly show. Plenty of US Presidents have done things that could be considered grounds for impeachment. If a majority in a legislature do not want a President impeached and convicted he won't be, no matter how guilty he is.

If they do want to impeach him and have the number for a guilty verdict that is what will happen even if they have to cook the charge up. that's the reality of the world, guilt or innocence will have very little to do with it.

I know that's not how it usually works, if it was a situation of clear guilt he would just resign. However, I feel like a lot of you Trump supporters are ready to fight for him no matter what, even if he breaks the laws.

No the point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether Presidents break the law or not, that's not a reason Presidents resign. They can be as innocent as the snow (unlikely) and if there is a majority who want to impeach him and enough votes to find him guilty he will be found guilty, a charge will be dreamed up if necessary. then he might resign to avoid impeachment (as Nixon did). He can be guilty as hell and if the votes aren't there for an impeachment or for a guilty verdict then he will serve out his term with no impeachment.

To give a little example and contrast from history

Watergate building in burgled

Result: nothing is taken

Burglers get caught

Nixon finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Woodward and Bernstein uncover the cover up.

Woodward and Bernstein are proclaimed heroes by the Democrats and the liberal media. Nixon is proclaimed a cheat and a crook by the Democrats and liberal media. Impeachment is planned and Nixon resigns to avoid this.


Thirty years earlier


Communist agents infiltrate the US State Department and other government bodies

Result: Serious secrets are stolen by some agents and given to America's enemies. Other agents successfully work to influence policy in a way that helps the Soviet Union and does severe harm to the free world and the human race as a whole

FBI uncovers and identifies these communist agents

Truman finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Joe McCarthy uncovers the cover up

Truman is proclaimed a hero and the Democrats start immediate attempts to railroad McCarthy who they and the liberal media proclaim a crook and a liar. This eventually succeeds four years later.


You see what I mean?

This post explains a lot about you.

[Inmate Trump]

Russia helped elect Donald Trump.

There is evidence that has been supported by the FBI and CIA.

It happened.  Your guy won because *RUSSIA* helped him win.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Russia helped elect Donald Trump.

There is evidence that has been supported by the FBI and CIA.

It happened.  Your guy won because *RUSSIA* helped him win.

Helped him win how?  By showing the inner workings of Hillary's inner circle by hacking their e-mails?

There's no evidence that they sabotaged voting machines.

I would also suggest that WI, MI, and PA were won by Trump because of his appeal to working class voters that was a staple of his campaign from beginning to end.

[EnglishPete]

No the point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether Presidents break the law or not, that's not a reason Presidents resign. They can be as innocent as the snow (unlikely) and if there is a majority who want to impeach him and enough votes to find him guilty he will be found guilty, a charge will be dreamed up if necessary. then he might resign to avoid impeachment (as Nixon did). He can be guilty as hell and if the votes aren't there for an impeachment or for a guilty verdict then he will serve out his term with no impeachment.

To give a little example and contrast from history

Watergate building in burgled

Result: nothing is taken

Burglers get caught

Nixon finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Woodward and Bernstein uncover the cover up.

Woodward and Bernstein are proclaimed heroes by the Democrats and the liberal media. Nixon is proclaimed a cheat and a crook by the Democrats and liberal media. Impeachment is planned and Nixon resigns to avoid this.


Thirty years earlier


Communist agents infiltrate the US State Department and other government bodies

Result: Serious secrets are stolen by some agents and given to America's enemies. Other agents successfully work to influence policy in a way that helps the Soviet Union and does severe harm to the free world and the human race as a whole

FBI uncovers and identifies these communist agents

Truman finds out and covers it up, claiming executive privilege to do this

Joe McCarthy uncovers the cover up

Truman is proclaimed a hero and the Democrats start immediate attempts to railroad McCarthy who they and the liberal media proclaim a crook and a liar. This eventually succeeds four years later.


You see what I mean?

This post explains a lot about you.

Not sure what this is supposed to 'explain about me'? That I know about history perhaps?

[Gabagool102]

Russia helped elect Donald Trump.

There is evidence that has been supported by the FBI and CIA.

It happened.  Your guy won because *RUSSIA* helped him win.

Yea remember those weapons of mass destruction.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Russia helped elect Donald Trump.

There is evidence that has been supported by the FBI and CIA.

It happened.  Your guy won because *RUSSIA* helped him win.

Russia's "help" exposed the fact that we all knew anyway: that your candidate was a lying, crooked bitch who shouldn't be anywhere near the Presidency judging by the den of cheats, perverts, and fraudsters whom she has surrounded herself all the way back to Arkansas.

I love how everyone who likes to engage in Russiaphobia seems to ignore the content of what the Russians allegedly exposed.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

It's very tempting to say something like "it was all because of Putin", but it distracts us from other important reasons Trump won the election. It was a factor, but one of many factors.

It doesn't exonerate the Kremlin, though. And, unlike with the WMD, Russian cybernetic activities are long a public knowledge.

[EnglishPete]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/29/matt-drudge-suggests-us-government-could-be-attack/

Obama and CIA attacking opposition, pro-Trump media perhaps. Alex Jones has reported that InfoWars  has recently suffered from similar attacks.

[Shadows]

If ever a party in Atlas deserved a prize for assembling the most dumb set of people, it is the Republican party.

Some of the comments are beautiful in a funny way - This thread is hillarious!

[EnglishPete]

If ever a party in Atlas deserved a prize for assembling the most dumb set of people, it is the Republican party.

Some of the comments are beautiful in a funny way - This thread is hillarious!

And yet you will realise that everything I've said in this thread is factual. Your amused response a reaction to some cognitive dissonance perhaps.