Opinion of Ho Chi Minh

[Intell]

Furthermore if we are talking about Ho Chi Minh and what he and his government were responsible and why he has a far better reputation that he deserves and why far too may people, many of whom should know better, think that the communists were 'good guys' and the South Vietnamese were 'bad guys' during the war lets look at another blog article detailing media bias in one US media outlet (and the reasons for it), although this is all too typical.

This is a bit of a lengthy quote but I think its important to include chapter and verse on this particular issue just to make things clear

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http://vnafmamn.com/VNWar_atrocities.html

In this thread so far I've said that the South Vietnamese government, highly flawed as it was, was far better for the ordinary people of Vietnam than the highly oppressive and totalitarian Northern communist government.

Further I've asserted that US could have won the war relatively easily if it had not been sabotaged by its own policy decisions and rules of engagement preventing it (deliberately in my view) from being able to win.

The response from lefties has been



On the other hand provide chapter and verse evidence of these facts (for example the evidence quoted above) and ask if they have any evidence to the contrary

The response from lefties

[EnglishPete]

[EnglishPete]

The villagers of Đắk Sơn after they had experienced the 'liberating' effects of VC terrorists









Can anyone suggest anything that the South Vietnamese government did that was as bad or worse than what the North Vietnamese government or VC did? Anything at all?

[Intell]

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-vietnam6aug06-story.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23427726

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

http://www.crimesofwar.org/commentary/the-war-behind-me-vietnam-veterans-confront-the-truth-about-us-war-crimes-in-vietnam/

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/02/the_burden_of_atrocity_how_vietnam_was_exposed_as_a_dirty_war/

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/1802

Let's not forget this;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War

[Intell]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Tr%E1%BA%A1ch_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binh_Tai_Massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%ACnh_H%C3%B2a_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_Nh%E1%BB%8B_and_Phong_Nh%E1%BA%A5t_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A0_My_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_Ch%C3%BAc_massacre (Supported by the US, in every single way)

Let's not forget all the bombings, deaths and destructions perperated on on North Vietnam by the South Vietnam and it's war allies.

[EnglishPete]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Tr%E1%BA%A1ch_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binh_Tai_Massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%ACnh_H%C3%B2a_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_Nh%E1%BB%8B_and_Phong_Nh%E1%BA%A5t_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A0_My_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_Ch%C3%BAc_massacre (Supported by the US, in every single way)

Let's not forget all the bombings, deaths and destructions perperated on on North Vietnam by the South Vietnam and it's war allies.

I'll get to your previous post shortly but I'll deal with this one first.

Firstly on the accusations against South Korea these have been disputed. South Korea claims that it was the VC that carried out the massacres and then sought to blame South Korean soldiers for the crimes, as it says in one of the links you gave

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_Nhị_and_Phong_Nhất_massacre

Since the Koreans were there primarily to defeat the VC whilst the VC was there primarily to terrorise the population into submission to communist rule, as they had already done in the north, then carrying out these massacres seems to fit the strategic aims of the VC rather better than it fits the strategic aims of South Korea. Added to which let's remember that communists are notorious for their tendency towards pathological lying and this would hardly be the first time they had blamed their own atrocities on their enemies (e.g. the Katyn massacre)

On the point about the Khmer Rouge they were communists. Saying US backed communists carried out a massacre hardly undermines my point does it.

On the South Vietnamese. Finally you answer the question I asked about. You say they waged war against the North through bombings. May I remind you that it was the North Vietnamese communists who started the war by attacking the South both with their own troops directly and by organising, funding and being in charge of the VC terrorists. How would you expect the South Vietnamese to act. Did they not have the right to fight back in self defence?

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

EnglishPete's argument here seems to be that war crimes are very good when they're used to prevent war crimes. Considering that this piece of excrement probably has a fond opinion of Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa, I'm not sure why anyone should take his statements about Ho Chi Minh or communism seriously.

[EnglishPete]

EnglishPete's argument here seems to be

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

EnglishPete's argument here seems to be

Should the US have violated restrictions on warfare in order to win the Vietnam War? This is a simple and easy-to-answer question. Stop being an evasive weirdo and trying to hide behind anti-communism as an excuse for supporting disgusting practices and murderous regimes.

[EnglishPete]

EnglishPete's argument here seems to be

Should the US have violated restrictions on warfare in order to win the Vietnam War? This is a simple and easy-to-answer question. Stop being an evasive weirdo and trying to hide behind anti-communism as an excuse for supporting disgusting practices and murderous regimes.

[EnglishPete]

[

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-vietnam6aug06-story.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23427726

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

http://www.crimesofwar.org/commentary/the-war-behind-me-vietnam-veterans-confront-the-truth-about-us-war-crimes-in-vietnam/

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/02/the_burden_of_atrocity_how_vietnam_was_exposed_as_a_dirty_war/

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/1802

Let's not forget this;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War

  Now lets move on to these. Now of course the scale of atrocities carried out by American soldiers is much disputed. From example here

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http://vnafmamn.com/VNWar_atrocities.html

But I accept that you're not going to accept that account. Lets look at the articles you link to. Now a number of these go over the same individual cases as the others so lets look at the BBC article

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So here the accusation is that the VC and not the US forces were the ones who were able to dictate the time and place of combat and that in response a 'body count target' system was introduced.

the question then arises why were the vastly superior US forces unable to dictate the time and place of combat? Also why was this absurd 'body count system', after all battles are not won on points?

the answer is the US forces were unable to dicate time and place of combat because they were massively restricted by their 'rules of engagement' and the 'body count target' system was used as a substitute for a 'winning battles' system because they had a 'no win strategy' and you can't have the troops aiming at winning if you want a 'no win' war.

Finally lets add anther point that comes from the article I quote above

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And why were all these extra people needed? Why was the war so drawn out needed such manpower? Once again we come back to the self sabotage (deliberate in my view) of the absurdly restrictive 'rules of engagement' and no win strategy.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

EnglishPete's argument here seems to be

Should the US have violated restrictions on warfare in order to win the Vietnam War? This is a simple and easy-to-answer question. Stop being an evasive weirdo and trying to hide behind anti-communism as an excuse for supporting disgusting practices and murderous regimes.

Nice to know that you are a self-aware poltroon who recognizes that, without the juxtaposition with communism, that your ideology is repulsive, hideous to anyone with a soul. I encourage you to runaway from opponents with convictions at all times!

[EnglishPete]

EnglishPete's argument here seems to be

Should the US have violated restrictions on warfare in order to win the Vietnam War? This is a simple and easy-to-answer question. Stop being an evasive weirdo and trying to hide behind anti-communism as an excuse for supporting disgusting practices and murderous regimes.

Nice to know that you are a self-aware poltroon who recognizes that, without the juxtaposition with communism, that your ideology is repulsive, hideous to anyone with a soul. I encourage you to runaway from opponents with convictions at all times!

[Intell]

at everything fascist English Pete says.

[EnglishPete]

at everything fascist English Pete says.

[Cassius]

There's not really any point engaging with these people on topics like this, you're not going to win anyone over to your way of thinking.

[EnglishPete]

There's not really any point engaging with these people on topics like this, you're not going to win anyone over to your way of thinking.

I'm pointing out where they're wrong but of course I'm not doing so for their benefit. I realise that their stubborn bigoted leftism isn't going to be influenced by the facts, hence why I'm now rolling eyes at their more idiotic statements. Where they make a specific claim however then I like to point out why its wrong for the benefit of anyone else who might happen to be reading and who might be interested in the real facts.

[Intell]

There's not really any point engaging with these people on topics like this, you're not going to win anyone over to your way of thinking.

I'm pointing out where they're wrong but of course I'm not doing so for their benefit. I realise that their stubborn bigoted leftism isn't going to be influenced by the facts, hence why I'm now rolling eyes at their more idiotic statements. Where they make a specific claim however then I like to point out why its wrong for the benefit of anyone else who might happen to be reading and who might be interested in the real facts.

You're wrong but ok.

[they don't love you like i love you]

This is a fitting thread to post this hilarious clip: https://youtu.be/aSZosqXOyc0

[EnglishPete]

This is a fitting thread to post this hilarious clip: https://youtu.be/aSZosqXOyc0

You know I would have attributed to stupidity the idea that the Vietnamese people won the war when the communists won, the idea that the ordinary population of South Vietnam actively wanted the communists to win and saw a Northern victory as 'liberation'. I think many people can be tempted to think such a view is down to stupidity as such a view is so at odds with the facts that stupidity must be the explanation.

However I think it is due to something far worse. this passage I quoted above is written about people like Voter #652

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://vnafmamn.com/VNWar_atrocities.html

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

This is a fitting thread to post this hilarious clip: https://youtu.be/aSZosqXOyc0

That is stupid and I feel ashamed that I chuckled at it.

[Intell]

This is a fitting thread to post this hilarious clip: https://youtu.be/aSZosqXOyc0

You know I would have attributed to stupidity the idea that the Vietnamese people won the war when the communists won, the idea that the ordinary population of South Vietnam actively wanted the communists to win and saw a Northern victory as 'liberation'. I think many people can be tempted to think such a view is down to stupidity as such a view is so at odds with the facts that stupidity must be the explanation.

However I think it is due to something far worse. this passage I quoted above is written about people like Voter #652

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://vnafmamn.com/VNWar_atrocities.html

[EnglishPete]

This is a fitting thread to post this hilarious clip: https://youtu.be/aSZosqXOyc0

You know I would have attributed to stupidity the idea that the Vietnamese people won the war when the communists won, the idea that the ordinary population of South Vietnam actively wanted the communists to win and saw a Northern victory as 'liberation'. I think many people can be tempted to think such a view is down to stupidity as such a view is so at odds with the facts that stupidity must be the explanation.

However I think it is due to something far worse. this passage I quoted above is written about people like Voter #652

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://vnafmamn.com/VNWar_atrocities.html

[EnglishPete]

This is a fitting thread to post this hilarious clip: https://youtu.be/aSZosqXOyc0

That is stupid and I feel ashamed that I chuckled at it.

[Intell]

This is a fitting thread to post this hilarious clip: https://youtu.be/aSZosqXOyc0

That is stupid and I feel ashamed that I chuckled at it.