Cologne: Leftists attack police for handling New Year's events

[Tender Branson]

Cologne police's New Year's Eve security tactics spark political debate in Germany

A year since the Cologne sex assaults, a debate has broken out after the city's police allegedly "racially profiled" hundreds of North Africans. Authorities have also been criticized for referring to the men as "Nafris."

Addressing reporters on Monday, Cologne police chief Jürgen Mathies staunchly defended the actions of the city's police on New Year's Eve, saying he was "glad" that police had been "so well positioned."

Responding to claims of "racial profiling," Mathies said "it was not the appearance, but the behavior of the young men."

"Cologne police operated with sound judgment," he added.

"Racial profiling" refers to a procedure in which people are subjected, for example, to special checks or are held based on their skin color. In Cologne on Saturday, police surrounded groups of men that were almost exclusively of North African origin.

Cologne's security services were under pressure on Saturday night to prevent a repeat of the hundreds of sexual assaults and robberies on New Year's Eve 2015.

Some 1,000 men - mostly of North African and Middle Eastern origin - unexpectedly descended on the square between Cologne's iconic Gothic cathedral and the main train station on December 31, 2015 and molested hundreds of women.

On Saturday, authorities stepped up security with some 3,000 people officers deployed around the western German city. Come New Year's Day, however, police were under fire for allegedly "racially profiling" hundreds of people of North African descent as they carried out patrols and identification checks.

Green party co-chair Simone Peter said the tighter security in the city clearly limited violence and attacks during this year's celebrations - but she questioned the legality of police tactics.

"It raises the question of proportionality and legality when around 1,000 people were checked and partially detained, based on their appearance alone," Peter told local German paper Rheinische Post.

On Germany's political stage, however, Peter's criticism of Cologne's police has received little support, with many politicians praising authorities on Monday.

Vice Chancellor and Social Democrats (SPD) leader Sigmar Gabriel said the allegations of "racial profiling" were "an absurd and almost crazy debate."

CDU General Secretary Peter Tauber said it was hard to believe that the Greens were criticizing the preventive and successful action of the Cologne police as racist.

"This is absurd and unmasks once more the Green multiculturalism and complete lack of reality," he told the Funke media group.

Later on Monday, however, some Green party members distanced themselves from Peters' comments. Greens chairwoman Katrin Göring-Eckardt told western German newspaper Ruhrnachrichten that the police were quick and preventive.

http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-polices-new-years-eve-security-tactics-spark-political-debate-in-germany/a-36981934

Meanwhile, a Forsa poll shows that 79% of Germans support the actions of the Cologne police while only 13% were opposed.

[Tender Branson]

Once again, the extreme Left has been exposed as complete, naive, out-of-touch morons.

But that is not news to me anymore ...

[dead0man]

My favorite part was when she admitted profiling worked.

[Intell]

What does Die Linkie think, if they're like OMG it's racist, I'll probably shift support from such a party, to the SPD (yuck).

[Beezer]

I invite Ms. Peter to spend New Year's Eve 2017 among a large group of North African youths. I'm sure her first hand account will be an invaluable contribution to the discussion on how to integrate migrants and what sort of values and customs they hold, in particular their attitude towards women.

[parochial boy]

I invite Ms. Peter to spend New Year's Eve 2017 among a large group of North African youths. I'm sure her first hand account will be an invaluable contribution to the discussion on how to integrate migrants and what sort of values and customs they hold, in particular their attitude towards women.

Been there. Done that.

It's really not that scary.

[Antonio the Sixth]

My favorite part was when she admitted profiling worked.

A policy can "work" in a utilitarian sense and still be immoral.

[Beezer]

I invite Ms. Peter to spend New Year's Eve 2017 among a large group of North African youths. I'm sure her first hand account will be an invaluable contribution to the discussion on how to integrate migrants and what sort of values and customs they hold, in particular their attitude towards women.

Been there. Done that.

It's really not that scary.

I assume you're one of the few women in this forum?

[Beezer]

My favorite part was when she admitted profiling worked.

A policy can "work" in a utilitarian sense and still be immoral.

Well, the likely alternative would have been a repeat of what happened on NYE 2015. Unless you think it was just a coincidence that 1000 "Nafris" turned up in Cologne once again and that these guys were just there to light a candle for world peace in the cathedral.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

The lack of awareness here is rather stunning. Profiling might work. In fact, it's probable that it worked in this instance, though we cannot be sure. However, detaining someone based on their looks and country of origin is very problematic for obvious reasons. Let's suppose that hundreds of these men intended on committing sexual assault; the police still would have harassed hundreds of men on no basis that goes beyond their complexion, fostering a distrust of authority and hatred of the German state.

I'd note that, even though I am Mexican-American, if I went to Germany, I could be profiled as an Arab so, uh, I'm very wary of racial-profiling and think that it is disturbing. There are other potential ways of dealing with this particular problem. This is low-hanging fruit, something that is politically popular because it targets an unpopular minority community that has no real political rights but that, in the long-run, is going to create problems.

[Famous Mortimer]

I see no problem with police taking someone aside and talking to them for 5 minutes because they fit the profile of someone who would commit a crime. We're not talking about actually punishing them for a crime, we're not taking about putting them in a camp. Of course, in an ideal world this wouldn't be necessary but we don't live in an ideal world. If you want someone to blame, blame the Muslim origin individuals who have committed crimes in the past and thus established the criminal profile. It's not the fault of the German government. God knows the racially guilt ridden German establishment doesn't want to do this, but they've been forced to it by those criminal individuals of Muslim origin.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Doesn't the alt-right also have a sizable MRA contingent? It's odd as one of the best MRA arguments is that it is unfair to stigmatise an entire group based on the actions of individuals, even if statistics show members of such a group is more likely to be guilty of crime X.

[Famous Mortimer]

Men are more likely to rape women than women. Absolutely true. If the German police were questioning women based on them possibly being out to commit sexual assault, that would be very stupid. They obviously didn't do that and no one has a problem with the fact that they didn't.

[dead0man]

Doesn't the alt-right also have a sizable MRA contingent? It's odd as one of the best MRA arguments is that it is unfair to stigmatise an entire group based on the actions of individuals, even if statistics show members of such a group is more likely to be guilty of crime X.

I think you may have posted in the wrong thread.

My favorite part was when she admitted profiling worked.

A policy can "work" in a utilitarian sense and still be immoral.

sure, and yet rape is more immoral than profiling....by like a million.  I'd much rather 1000 innocent people be temporarily hassled than have 1 (or, ya know, hundreds) sexually assaulted.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Men are more likely to rape women than women. Absolutely true. If the German police were questioning women based on them possibly being out to commit sexual assault, that would be very stupid. They obviously didn't do that and no one has a problem with the fact that they didn't.

Should all men be treated as potential rapists?

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Well, excuse me for pointing out the logical implications of engaging in this sort of policing but it's something to consider. Integration is a two-way street; giving immigrant or refugee communities the impression that they ought not partake in public festivities, which is obviously what this sort of police work tells them, will make them retreat to their own private homes and their own neighborhoods. Then Germans will whine about how they're segregated and not really German and so on. People who complain about assimilation almost always support policies that promote segregation. You can't have it both ways...

I can appreciate this policy because, as it turns out, I am not a SJW nor am I someone who romanticizes non-Western cultures. There are serious problems in dealing with rape culture that takes place in the public square rather than at home; it's easier to deal with but, in a sense, dealing with it has broader implications because it requires surveilling and, to a large extent, harassing people who fit a particular profile, which is discriminatory. Don't misunderstand me. I don't think that discrimination isn't inherently bad but it bears costs and consequences. This should be understood.

[Famous Mortimer]

Men are more likely to rape women than women. Absolutely true. If the German police were questioning women based on them possibly being out to commit sexual assault, that would be very stupid. They obviously didn't do that and no one has a problem with the fact that they didn't.

Should all men be treated as potential rapists?

"Men" is too large a group to be useful for profiling purposes. The whole reason you profile is to reduce the number of suspects. It's not that it would be immoral to take every male aside and question them for 2 minutes, it's just that it would be logistically impossible and a waste of resources. A profilable trait needs to be something that isn't super common. For the moment, being Arab/Somali/Afghan isn't really common in Germany.

But again, to some extent they already are profiling men since I doubt they questioned any Muslim women about their intentions.

[Famous Mortimer]

Well, excuse me for pointing out the logical implications of engaging in this sort of policing but it's something to consider. Integration is a two-way street; giving immigrant or refugee communities the impression that they ought not partake in public festivities, which is obviously what this sort of police work tells them

What it should tell them is that they should refrain from criminal behavior because criminal behavior by members of their community is what makes these policies unfortunately necessary. If they draw any other conclusion, they should not immigrate.

[Beezer]

I'd note that, even though I am Mexican-American, if I went to Germany, I could be profiled as an Arab so, uh, I'm very wary of racial-profiling and think that it is disturbing. There are other potential ways of dealing with this particular problem. This is low-hanging fruit, something that is politically popular because it targets an unpopular minority community that has no real political rights but that, in the long-run, is going to create problems.

I agree, there are other ways. The vast majority of young male migrants from NAfrica should not be in Germany to begin with. They didn't come here with work permits but as asylum seekers. Their claims should be rejected asap (since all of them entered Germany via safe countries anyway). Until then I see no other option but to racially profile people, especially when a 1000 North African men are all of a sudden descending on a city and this group of people sadly stands out for their criminal proclivity:

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The alternative to this profiling is far worse. Let's not kid ourselves, support for democracy only runs skin deep in most societies. If democratic governments prove incapable of preserving the safety and security of its citizens, those citizens will turn to alternatives that are not necessarily democratic in nature.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Well, excuse me for pointing out the logical implications of engaging in this sort of policing but it's something to consider. Integration is a two-way street; giving immigrant or refugee communities the impression that they ought not partake in public festivities, which is obviously what this sort of police work tells them

What it should tell them is that they should refrain from criminal behavior because criminal behavior by members of their community is what makes these policies unfortunately necessary. If they draw any other conclusion, they should not immigrate.

Groups of individuals aren't collectively responsible for the crimes of individuals. It's an unfair standard to hold someone accountable for the crime of someone else.

What makes your crime so bizarre is that crime rates of immigrants appear to be lower than the crime rates of non-immigrants in Germany. 15.6% of residents of Germany are foreign born and 6.5% of crimes were committed by immigrants. Thus,we should clearly hold Germans responsible for the crimes of Germans.

This logic does not make sense.

[Famous Mortimer]

Well, excuse me for pointing out the logical implications of engaging in this sort of policing but it's something to consider. Integration is a two-way street; giving immigrant or refugee communities the impression that they ought not partake in public festivities, which is obviously what this sort of police work tells them

What it should tell them is that they should refrain from criminal behavior because criminal behavior by members of their community is what makes these policies unfortunately necessary. If they draw any other conclusion, they should not immigrate.

Groups of individuals aren't collectively responsible for the crimes of individuals. It's an unfair standard to hold someone accountable for the crime of someone else.

What makes your crime so bizarre is that crime rates of immigrants appear to be lower than the crime rates of non-immigrants in Germany. 15.6% of residents of Germany are foreign born and 6.5% of crimes were committed by immigrants. Thus,we should clearly hold Germans responsible for the crimes of Germans.

This logic does not make sense.

What does "holding accountable" mean? Again, no one is suggesting all Arab men but put in jail because some Arab men have committed crimes. It's being suggested that the police pay special attention to large groups of Arab men in public and perhaps ask them what they are doing.

Also, what percentage of that 15% is people from other EU countries as opposed to people from the third world?

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Well, excuse me for pointing out the logical implications of engaging in this sort of policing but it's something to consider. Integration is a two-way street; giving immigrant or refugee communities the impression that they ought not partake in public festivities, which is obviously what this sort of police work tells them

What it should tell them is that they should refrain from criminal behavior because criminal behavior by members of their community is what makes these policies unfortunately necessary. If they draw any other conclusion, they should not immigrate.

Groups of individuals aren't collectively responsible for the crimes of individuals. It's an unfair standard to hold someone accountable for the crime of someone else.

What makes your crime so bizarre is that crime rates of immigrants appear to be lower than the crime rates of non-immigrants in Germany. 15.6% of residents of Germany are foreign born and 6.5% of crimes were committed by immigrants. Thus,we should clearly hold Germans responsible for the crimes of Germans.

This logic does not make sense.

What does "holding accountable" mean? Again, no one is suggesting all Arab men but put in jail because some Arab men have committed crimes. It's being suggested that the police pay special attention to large groups of Arab men in public and perhaps ask them what they are doing.

Also, what percentage of that 15% is people from other EU countries as opposed to people from the third world?

You're suggesting that immigrants ought to direct their resentment at criminals and not political authority that is impinging upon their existence by implementing policies that have clear collateral effects. This is inane and does not make sense; people have control over political authorities to some degree, which are accountable to the public, but they have no control over other criminals. Besides, the point that you addressed earlier was not a statement of what should be but an observation and you responded by saying that immigrants should resent criminals instead of the authorities. That's all well and good but, ultimately, who cares Mortimer?

I am not sure but the statistics posted by Beezer related to immigrants as a whole and I am sure that some EU migrants commit crimes also. This was an observation; usually crime statistics for immigrants suggest far lower crime rates than what is commonly assumed by the public. I don't blame policymakers for reacting to what the public believes but this is a forum that's supposedly filled with intelligent people so I'm going to hold you guys to a higher standard.

[Intell]

Immigrant men from North African background, are much more likely to commit crime, than german men.

[Cory]

Immigrant men from North African background, are much more likely to commit crime, than german men.

But, but, but....... you're not allowed to say that!

I understand the the majority of asylum seekers ect. aren't like that but enough are (especially young men, whom we are talking about) are to the point where it is an issue. By denying it and shaming people who point it out we are only adding fuel to the far-right.

Comments like "well maybe it's MEN IN GENERAL who are the problem" are so obviously silly that it serves no purpose other than to create a self-inflicted straw-man that serves only to delegitimize the left in the eyes of reasonable people.

It's time for certain people on the left to realize that all because someone is a member of a minority ethnic/social group that they aren't somehow incapable of culturally structured wrongdoing. It's time to consider the "lived experience" of people who are the victims of this stuff also. You might not like what you hear.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Immigrant men from North African background, are much more likely to commit crime, than german men.

This is a plausible claim but I wouldn't be so conclusive about this without statistics or a citation.