Why the pessimism about Donald Trump here?

[Hermit For Peace]

Good advice, except it's still fun to trash-talk our president-elect and let out our frustrations verbally instead of going out and burning down a building, say....

[publicunofficial]

I'm very optimistic about Trump's presidency, in that I think it will be a disaster.

[Calthrina950]

I'm trying to figure out why people on this forum are so opposed to Trump, and so supportive of Clinton.

Before the election, this forum consisted of 72% Hillary Supporters, 25% Trump supporters and 3% who still have not figured out what this forum actually is, but hang around anyway. That's me.

Immediately after the election, some of the loudest Hillary supporters simply vanished. But the number of democratic leaning members would still be in the 60-70% range.

Looking from outside the USA in, as a whole right now, it needs a full frontal lobotomy back to 1956 and start again.

The USA has lost the freakin' plot. $20 Trillion in debt is non-negotiable. You need the toe-cutter brought in.

Astonishing numbers, I would say. It seems as if online forums do attract more liberal members, for some reason. I have never been able to understand why. But now I know the main reason for why people are so negative to Trump, and that answers my question.

[TJ in Oregon]

I'll be honest, a big part of it for me was that a decent chunk of my friends are social conservatives with post graduate degrees (which is far from a representative sample of the US!), who either sat out the election or voted for Hillary despite people who a year ago would have never imagined doing anything except voting for the Republican presidential candidate. So I looked around me and though, well, if Trump can't even get the vote of ___, then there's no way he's close to even nationwide.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

[Hermit For Peace]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

That's pretty dang good!

[Dr. Arch]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

You're on a roll, Rune!

[OneJ]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

Why can't more posters be like you?

[Santander]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

Why can't more posters be like you?

Uh, how about no.

[Meclazine for Israel]

I am just trying to picture it....

[OneJ]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

Why can't more posters be like you?

Uh, how about no.

Uh, how about a yes!

[Calthrina950]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

I don't think so. In my opinion, Hillary would have been worse. At least with Trump, we will get something different. It's not a bad thing to try something new from time to time.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Personally, I am glad that Trump defeated Clinton. In my view, despite his comments and his off-handed behavior, I think it was better for us that Trump won, rather than her. Hillary Clinton would have represented the continuation of the status quo. She would have been dogged by more scandals, and that would have been horrendous for the United States. Moreover, her behavior during her husband's administration, her time as Senator, and as Sec. of State, suggests that she would have been out for herself.

But here, I haven't seen much discussion of these facets of her character.

For one, it's now irrelevant.

For another, yes, she had flaws. Especially as a campaigner. But she had a long history as an effective establishment technocrat bureaucrat.


As someone opposed to the status quo, the choice between Clinton and Trump seemed to be the choice between bus drivers. The bus is heading to a place I don't really want to go. Clinton would have kept going the same (wrong) direction. Sure, she might have pocketed an extra 5 cents per ticket, or delayed some non-critical maintenance. But she also would have kept the passenger compartment a civilized place. And she would have kept the bus on the road, in its lane. It might even have been a pleasant drive.

Trump, by comparison, is a drunk driver waving a gun with an unknown number of bullets. Some passengers wonder if he's got a bomb vest under his jacket. He raves at other passengers that they should throw people off the bus. He's put the pedal to the floor, and forget the staying in the right lane, we'll be lucky to stay on the road. There are noises coming from under the hood, and he tells everyone to ignore them, it'll be fine. He says the same thing about the cop cars outside, and threatens to shoot anyone who points out that he's wearing a hat that has "State Mental Hospital" printed on it instead of "Bus Driver". Then he says he's the best bus driver ever, in a slurred voice.

I don't think so. In my opinion, Hillary would have been worse. At least with Trump, we will get something different. It's not a bad thing to try something new from time to time.

By that logic let's put rat poison instead of sugar in our coffee because hey it's new

[pbrower2a]

1. America is polarized into two different political universes, mutually exclusive and believing nearly-diametric opposites of what each other believe in. We have some honest-to-Mussolini fascists in the GOP and sober liberals in the Democratic Party...and that is as opposite as one can get. (Were it Commies in the Democratic Party and sober conservatives in the GOP, that observation would hold),

People are not moving away from their beliefs.

2. Donald Trump has chosen to go with extremism, going to a position in which wealth and corporate power are the real measures of political legitimacy.If 95% of the American people suffer greatly for only 2% who matter -- that's how he wants it.

3. We have questions of outside influence in the elections -- influence from outside the USA, from a firmly-authoritarian regime. Foreigners are not allowed even to make campaign contributions to Presidential and Congressional campaigns.  It would be bad enough if some State governor suppressed the vote -- but if foreigners got involved... we had a sham of an election.

4. We have an incoming President unlike any other in American history -- one who barks orders like a dictator, one who has promoted ethnic and religious bigotry, one who has admitted to grabbing women by their crotches... He has claimed to know more than the generals about war despite having never served in combat.  He has a stormy relationship with the CIA and the FBI.

He is no gentleman. He is no expert. He has a shady record as a businessman. Why should we expect him to grow into the Presidency?

5. He has a shaky mandate. He got about as much of a share of the popular vote as two Presidential nominees who are generally understood to have been trounced. -- less than 46% of the vote. He did better than Mike Dukakis in 1988 and John McCain in 2008 and got less than the winner of the popular vote.

6. He has shown contempt for science and education in favor of his personal intuition and the values of special interests.

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN? -- sure. Only for the upper 2%. The rest of us can work longer and harder under more brutal management for far less. All for Pharaoh.

How bad is Donald Trump? I expect big growth in the Communist Party (by its standards). I expect more people to emigrate. High-tech companies will find it harder to recruit and maintain highly-trained people in America. Secession movements will pop up where they have not existed before.

There can be only one good result for four years of the Trump Administration -- that people have learned  to stay clear of demagogues who show signs of sociopathy.

 
 

[Calthrina950]

1. America is polarized into two different political universes, mutually exclusive and believing nearly-diametric opposites of what each other believe in. We have some honest-to-Mussolini fascists in the GOP and sober liberals in the Democratic Party...and that is as opposite as one can get. (Were it Commies in the Democratic Party and sober conservatives in the GOP, that observation would hold),

People are not moving away from their beliefs.

2. Donald Trump has chosen to go with extremism, going to a position in which wealth and corporate power are the real measures of political legitimacy.If 95% of the American people suffer greatly for only 2% who matter -- that's how he wants it.

3. We have questions of outside influence in the elections -- influence from outside the USA, from a firmly-authoritarian regime. Foreigners are not allowed even to make campaign contributions to Presidential and Congressional campaigns.  It would be bad enough if some State governor suppressed the vote -- but if foreigners got involved... we had a sham of an election.

4. We have an incoming President unlike any other in American history -- one who barks orders like a dictator, one who has promoted ethnic and religious bigotry, one who has admitted to grabbing women by their crotches... He has claimed to know more than the generals about war despite having never served in combat.  He has a stormy relationship with the CIA and the FBI.

He is no gentleman. He is no expert. He has a shady record as a businessman. Why should we expect him to grow into the Presidency?

5. He has a shaky mandate. He got about as much of a share of the popular vote as two Presidential nominees who are generally understood to have been trounced. -- less than 46% of the vote. He did better than Mike Dukakis in 1988 and John McCain in 2008 and got less than the winner of the popular vote.

6. He has shown contempt for science and education in favor of his personal intuition and the values of special interests.

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN? -- sure. Only for the upper 2%. The rest of us can work longer and harder under more brutal management for far less. All for Pharaoh.

How bad is Donald Trump? I expect big growth in the Communist Party (by its standards). I expect more people to emigrate. High-tech companies will find it harder to recruit and maintain highly-trained people in America. Secession movements will pop up where they have not existed before.

There can be only one good result for four years of the Trump Administration -- that people have learned  to stay clear of demagogues who show signs of sociopathy.
 

It amazes me how people here are into the habit of denigrating and denouncing Trump. People here say "he will ruin America" or "he will be a horrible President" or "he is a worthless, lying scumbag and pig". Yet all of these could easily have been descriptors of Hillary Clinton. People here seem to ignore all of the evil deeds committed by the Clintons over the past forty years. And they seem to defend their choice to vote for a woman who asked "why I am not fifty points ahead?" That is the height of insanity.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Most of the "evil" commited by the Clintons was merely very average political stuff (I think people are incredibly naive if they think it is limited to them) or hearsay they brought upon themselves due to their bizzare secrecy fetish.

Like the reason we are denigrating Trump is we are observing his actions, following through on the substance of his words and examining the sorts of people he is surrounding himself with. By comparison, your examination of Clinton is based on the fact she said dumb stuff occasionally.

In short, when people say "trump is a sack of crap" they normally provide evidence for it. You saying the washed up has been Hillary is a sack of crap is irrelevant, because you have provided no evidence beyond the comfortable false equivalence that intellectually dishonest people use to conceal their lack of critical thought.

[Earthling]

Problem is that most of the evil deeds committed by the Clintons aren't true. The Clintons have been accused of a lot of things, from corruption in Arkansas to murdering their best friend. They have been investigated by many, many people and no one really came up with any proof for these actions.
Only right-wing hacks and morons believe all the stories about Bill and Hillary Clinton.

And I am saying this as someone who is not a big fan of either Clinton.

Trump on the other hand is on record saying horrible things. He is widely known within New York City to be a con-artist. He scammed many people.

And the height of insanity? America has reached that point when Trump was elected.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Tbh if Clinton had won especially in a mediocre finish, my prediction would be a 2018 blowout worse than anything the Democrats have ever seen before.

[Wiz in Wis]

Perhaps I'm a fool, but here's my honest answer as to my pessimism about Trump.

As you've noted, Clinton had many many flaws. I voted for her with the full impression that she'd be a one term president and that the GOP would hound her with investigations, and probably would try to impeach her. And yet, I still think Trump is going to be a worse president. Here's why:

Trump has no real business acumen. Many of his ventures have failed due to simple mis-management. It's not like he took really risky ideas and failed. He failed at things most people actually succeed at. What he is very good at is marketing. He transformed himself into a brand, and then relied on perception to carry him to more wealth. But in terms of building anything, he isn't nearly as impressive as most CEOs. I mean, compare him to Elon Musk. Musk has built three businesses (SpaceX, Tesla, PayPal) that literally came from nowhere. Trump took his dad's business and parried it into his own, but has never really came up with a new revolutionary product, service, or paradigm. He's about as good a CEO as Kim Kardashian is an actress. Well known, but empty and talent-less.

I think he's a much better campaigner than he is a leader, and as such, now that he has to govern, I am not optimistic that he will actually be able to accomplish much. He will be constantly distracted by his need to be respected/adored, and will not do the hard work of drafting policy and managing the executive. Eventually, the GOP will begin to eat itself, as all parties do when they have all the power, and infighting will erupt (you're already seeing it on foreign policy). The next two to four years are going to be an excellent example of too many cooks in the kitchen.

And that's before we talk about his vile personal behavior, business ties, personal scandals, etc. In short, we did have two bad paths last November. We chose the rockier path.

[Calthrina950]

Problem is that most of the evil deeds committed by the Clintons aren't true. The Clintons have been accused of a lot of things, from corruption in Arkansas to murdering their best friend. They have been investigated by many, many people and no one really came up with any proof for these actions.
Only right-wing hacks and morons believe all the stories about Bill and Hillary Clinton.

And I am saying this as someone who is not a big fan of either Clinton.

Trump on the other hand is on record saying horrible things. He is widely known within New York City to be a con-artist. He scammed many people.

And the height of insanity? America has reached that point when Trump was elected.

Not true? The Clintons have been able, by virtue of their position, their wealth, their lies, and their influence, to escape from the charges levied against them. There have been so many accounts written of their horrible behavior, both in Arkansas and in the White House. So many people have testified against them, and there have been so many scandals attached to them. Moreover, note all of the women who have accused Bill Clinton of having raped, assaulted, or sexually abused them. There are too many cases to be dismissed. Also, the numerous accounts that have been written about the Clintons and their corruption, their lies, and their filth. From all of the accounts about Hillary's corrupt behavior and her antics towards her subordinates, to the exposure, in "Clinton Cash", of their profiteering and opportunism through the Clinton Foundation.

You are really buying into the message of the mainstream media and of the Clinton apologists if you believe they are innocent.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Very interesting partisan stuff there, but you seem to be consistently ignoring everybody's point so you can endlessly repeat yourself.

[Calthrina950]

Very interesting partisan stuff there, but you seem to be consistently ignoring everybody's point so you can endlessly repeat yourself.

No, I get what you are saying, it's just that I vehemently disagree with your viewpoints.