Philly SHOCKED that new large soda tax is hurting consumers
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  Philly SHOCKED that new large soda tax is hurting consumers
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Author Topic: Philly SHOCKED that new large soda tax is hurting consumers  (Read 2115 times)
dead0man
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« on: January 05, 2017, 02:23:45 PM »

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1.5 cents per ounce making the tax 24 times higher than the tax on beer.  Weird that the distributors aren't just eating this like the city council  thought.  Who'd a thunk it?
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Torie
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 02:26:48 PM »

The costs to get some product on the shelves and sold affect its retail price? Really? How can that be? Someone please explain it all to me. Thanks.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 03:35:29 PM »

I mean, most municipalities are starved for cash. It's no wonder they're leaning on sin taxes - it's basically all they have to give themselves autonomy.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 03:37:58 PM »

With the overpaid teachers unions demanding a massive payout, the citizens are made to suffer.
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justfollowingtheelections
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2017, 03:38:35 PM »

Drinking less of those unhealthy drinks isn't hurting them.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2017, 04:00:07 PM »

Drinking less of those unhealthy drinks isn't hurting them.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2017, 04:11:18 PM »

That's the thing though - when you start to rely for revenue on a product that you ideally want to discourage, you end up with an unfortunate side-effect...

(Not that I oppose these laws, although granted I haven't seen enough evidence for full frontal support).
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SATW
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2017, 04:11:34 PM »


You don't get to tell people what is or isn't good for them. Enjoying losing in 2020 for the same reasons you lost in 2016 Smiley
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CrabCake
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2017, 04:14:32 PM »


You don't get to tell people what is or isn't good for them. Enjoying losing in 2020 for the same reasons you lost in 2016 Smiley

Thing is, most people accept tobacco taxes as a useful source of revenue nowadays. There really is no logical reason to claim soda taxes are intolerable attacks on freedom, yet ciggy taxes are a necessity.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2017, 04:17:05 PM »

Shameful to see the city funded on the backs of the working class since I certainly won't be drinking any.
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DrScholl
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2017, 04:18:58 PM »


You don't get to tell people what is or isn't good for them. Enjoying losing in 2020 for the same reasons you lost in 2016 Smiley

Good luck duplicate an electoral college win based on narrow, narrow numbers. Enjoy losing in 2020 when Trump can't run an outsider anymore Smiley
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Hermit For Peace
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2017, 04:53:32 PM »

Oh, and reformed alcoholics. I forgot about reformed alcoholics. They drink soda too.

Forgive the hyperbole in this thread, but I can't help finding it amusing how easily triggered people are by this issue. Sugary drinks - including most alcoholic beverages - are a serious public health problem in the United States and just one of many examples of how our culture is completely unable to tell people that it is bad to indulge too much in certain things because they hurt other people or our future selves.

Why single out drinks as being bad? Processed food is bad for you, McDonald's food is bad and all those other fast food places, and so many other things that you buy in the store are simply crap. So why single out soda?
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2017, 04:56:51 PM »
« Edited: January 05, 2017, 05:02:48 PM by Tintrlvr »

That's the thing though - when you start to rely for revenue on a product that you ideally want to discourage, you end up with an unfortunate side-effect...

(Not that I oppose these laws, although granted I haven't seen enough evidence for full frontal support).

Seems like the tax started out high enough that they are killing the product straightaway rather than coming to rely on the tax for revenue. Though it baffles me that apparently they thought the price of soda wouldn't go up. What was the point if not to cause the price of soda to go up?

Oh, and reformed alcoholics. I forgot about reformed alcoholics. They drink soda too.

Forgive the hyperbole in this thread, but I can't help finding it amusing how easily triggered people are by this issue. Sugary drinks - including most alcoholic beverages - are a serious public health problem in the United States and just one of many examples of how our culture is completely unable to tell people that it is bad to indulge too much in certain things because they hurt other people or our future selves.

Why single out drinks as being bad? Processed food is bad for you, McDonald's food is bad and all those other fast food places, and so many other things that you buy in the store are simply crap. So why single out soda?

Plainly, because it's an easier target. You can't go after all of these things with the same laws, and going after the low-hanging fruit that are easier to deal with doesn't mean the harder tasks go undone. They just require more nuance. It's a lot harder to tax or otherwise attack "fast food" or "processed food" because the definition of those things is much more complicated than "beverage with more than X sugar per ounce". That doesn't make attacking soda and juice a bad decision.
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Bigby
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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 05:05:17 PM »

Will this cause an underground Coca Cola trade like Bill de Blasio made with cigarettes in NYC? Constant government regulation never works as a deterrent.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2017, 05:10:34 PM »

Will this cause an underground Coca Cola trade like Bill de Blasio made with cigarettes in NYC? Constant government regulation never works as a deterrent.

"Pssst mate ... You holding any coke?"

"Yeah how many grams"

"Grams? You mean cans right?"

"...Err"
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2017, 05:13:08 PM »

Meanwhile the expensive coffees enjoyed by many of the culturally elite lefties does not face a similar price bump.

Coincidence?

(Awaiting "omg but muh venti iced pumpkin spice latte iz much healthier than a diet coke. Stupid poors!")
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dead0man
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« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2017, 05:20:45 PM »

Will this cause an underground Coca Cola trade like Bill de Blasio made with cigarettes in NYC? Constant government regulation never works as a deterrent.

"Pssst mate ... You holding any coke?"

"Yeah how many grams"

"Grams? You mean cans right?"

"...Err"
Then the local politicians can send the men in blue to hassle 'em for selling liquid caffeine.  Because we need more bad laws that put poor people and cops up each other's ass Roll Eyes  Laws against selling loose cigs and raising taxes an extreme amount on a consumable most people consume are horrible for poor people, but Dems keep shoving them down our throats.  Over regulation of occupations, stupid housing laws...if only the poor people voting for them would wise up.  Sadly they've been told there are only two options and the other option is racist and hates you....even more sad, they're often right.  (at least on the last bit, the two options thing is complete bull sh**t)
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Torie
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« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2017, 05:46:33 PM »

Meanwhile the expensive coffees enjoyed by many of the culturally elite lefties does not face a similar price bump.

Coincidence?

(Awaiting "omg but muh venti iced pumpkin spice latte iz much healthier than a diet coke. Stupid poors!")

Nah, those syrup drinks are unhealthful garbage and deserve to be taxed too. Drinking a latte isn't really "elite behavior," though. There's a Starbucks in almost every automobile slum in this country.

There are good reasons to focus on soda, like Crabcake mentions - it's easier to specify which drinks are taxed, it's the largest category of sugary drinks, it's what children are most likely to consume. But there are also bad reasons, and you're right, the fact that it's politically easier to target unhealthy behaviors that are more common among poor Americans is one of them.

Are not sugar fee sodas (you know the "diet" ones), equally taxed?  Yeah, I know, those cause cancer and you will die a horrible death from them, but I digress. Anyway, this sugar thing seems like a stalking horse for deflection in my mind. But set me straight!
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2017, 05:53:30 PM »


It is none of either of your business...
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2017, 05:57:29 PM »
« Edited: January 05, 2017, 05:59:11 PM by Sprouts Farmers Market ✘ »


It is when we have to pay for the added health cost. Internalize the externality.
Yes, that contradicts what I said earlier, but it's just upsetting about how regressive it is.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2017, 06:00:15 PM »


It is when we have to pay for the added health cost. Internalize the externality.
Yes, that contradicts what I said earlier, but it's just upsetting about how regressive it is.

If we try to tax away fat or unhealthy people, I am of the opinion that we are tip toeing toward eugenic thought.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2017, 06:01:31 PM »

Will this cause an underground Coca Cola trade like Bill de Blasio made with cigarettes in NYC? Constant government regulation never works as a deterrent.

"Pssst mate ... You holding any coke?"

"Yeah how many grams"

"Grams? You mean cans right?"

"...Err"
Then the local politicians can send the men in blue to hassle 'em for selling liquid caffeine.  Because we need more bad laws that put poor people and cops up each other's ass Roll Eyes  Laws against selling loose cigs and raising taxes an extreme amount on a consumable most people consume are horrible for poor people, but Dems keep shoving them down our throats.  Over regulation of occupations, stupid housing laws...if only the poor people voting for them would wise up.  Sadly they've been told there are only two options and the other option is racist and hates you....even more sad, they're often right.  (at least on the last bit, the two options thing is complete bull sh**t)

I was just making a joke
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2017, 06:03:55 PM »


It is when we have to pay for the added health cost. Internalize the externality.
Yes, that contradicts what I said earlier, but it's just upsetting about how regressive it is.

If we try to tax away fat or unhealthy people, I am of the opinion that we are tip toeing toward eugenic thought.

     I find it a little concerning that people are provided with benefits at taxpayer expense and those benefits are then used as an impetus to control consumption.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2017, 07:22:57 PM »


It is when we have to pay for the added health cost. Internalize the externality.
Yes, that contradicts what I said earlier, but it's just upsetting about how regressive it is.

If we try to tax away fat or unhealthy people, I am of the opinion that we are tip toeing toward eugenic thought.

     I find it a little concerning that people are provided with benefits at taxpayer expense and those benefits are then used as an impetus to control consumption.

People will be provided with some kind of health benefit at someone else's expense unless you literally reject the maimed and dying at the emergency department door, though. Public health is a basic government function, and frequently that entails encouraging people to behave differently.

This is what I mean what I talked about this being a triggering discussion for so many people. RINO Tom is actually comparing the soda tax to eugenics!

I appreciate the point that dead0man is making. These policies are alienating, bureaucratic, and typically aimed at the poor and disempowered. Middle class behaviors associated with health risks rarely face the same kind of censure. And I don't actually like soda taxes that much, but in the midst of the politics and culture of the United States in 2016 I see few other compelling ideas for addressing these problems. Obesity will overtake tobacco as the leading cause of premature death in this country within the next decade, it disproportionately affects poor and black Americans, and soda is a major culprit.

So I can't help being enthusiastic about anything that reduces soda consumption. The tradeoff is worthwhile. I would prefer to live in a country in which slightly fewer children have rotten teeth, in which slightly fewer people die premature deaths due to cardiovascular disease, and in which fewer people live with diabetes. What are conservatives and libertarians offering as alternatives?


A tip toe is a small step, friend.  We are trying to use the government to weed out those we find undesirable (obviously not in the fashion of killing them or stopping them from breeding but rather by changing them to our liking), and our rationale is that they're costing us money?  Or, more accurately, that they could?  New tangent, but why don't we tax tanning beds, alcohol, motorcycles, unsafe cars, amusement parks or anything else that might result in injury or health problems?  You could make a perfectly *logical* argument for a tax on any of them.  This is where I have become a little more "socially conservative" in the last year, for lack of better term: I do believe there's a point where you just say, "alright guys, this is ridiculous and we aren't going to argue about it anymore; it's a societal norm."  I think being able to enjoy the type of soda you want should be viewed as something it's unbelievably weird and stupid to try to regulate, and it shouldn't even be argued.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2017, 07:50:01 PM »

We're not changing them to our liking. We're changing them into a healthier version of themselves. Drinking less soda will bring them happiness, and they just don't know it. Alcohol is taxed generally and tanning beds ought to be as well.
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