S2: Barronelle Stutzmann Act

[Leinad]

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Sponsor: Ben Kenobi

I now open this up to the floor for debate.

[Terry the Fat Shark]

I am going to reserve my thoughts on this until I see how the Chamber debates, revises, and votes on this bill. This is a very very touchy issue with merits on both sides.

[fhtagn]

It has much potential to be abused and be used to hurt protected persons. For example, a racist person refusing service to a person of color.

The requirement that they provide an alternative that will supply the customer adequately sounds nice in theory, but who is going to make sure that this is actually being done? Who is going to make sure that the alternative service is of equal quality to the one requested?

If we had something in place that would oversee this, I could get on board with it. But it just seems that it would cause much more problems than there already are.

[Wisconsin+17]

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There have been six figure fines levied against business owners, including Barronelle Stutzmann, for Christians choosing to decline unwanted work. Said clients were referred to other businesses that would be otherwise more than happy to supply their needs. Clearly there is a need for greater protection of the business owners to ensure that they can continue to stay in business. Right now, the system as is is being abused to punish people for political disagreements.

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There is no 'equal quality' requirement. How would one assess that? It would be far too easy to claim that 'nobody has equal quality' and thus we're back to square one. The main concerns with civil rights were over restaurants and hotels. Look at the variety of restaurants today? Are we likely to see someone unable to purchase a meal because of the color of their skin? No. What this would do is open up opportunities for restaurants where people could target a specific clientele. You want a black-only club with soul food? You could do that. Is there a market for this specific thing? How do we know unless people get the opportunity to find out?

We should be confident that should a business engage in discriminatory practices that the market would see them lose drastic market share. We live in an age where you could leave reviews on your facebook page that you were denied service at a specific restaurant. There are plenty of ways to give public feedback to businesses.

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The system in place is bankrupting Christian business owners. This needs to be fixed.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Greetings, Members of the Chamber of Delegates;
As Secretary of the Interior and head of the Subdepartment of Justice, it is my duty to inform you that this bill as presently constituted stands in violation of Section 1 of the Evergreen-Tmthforu LGBTQ+ Rights Act (Title XLII of the Code of the Republic of Atlasia) and Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and is consequently unconstitutional under Article VIII, Section 1 of the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia, which states

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Should this bill, as presently constituted, be adopted by the Chamber of Delegates and signed by the Governor, my office will have no choice but to bring charges against this Region for the violation of the Constitution and Federal Law.

Kind Regards,
Harry S Truman
Secretary of the Interior

[Wisconsin+17]

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You are aware that Barronelle Stutzmann had served the plaintiffs of her suit for years? They were longterm customers of hers.

Ergo - there is no discrimination given that she was happy to serve any and all comers.

There is nothing in Evergreen's bill requiring business owners to accommodate every customer, nor preventing businesses from choosing to decline work contrary to the purpose of their business.

For example, are you requiring Catholic churches to admit homosexual men to the priesthood? If not, why not?

Clearly freedom of religion and association still exists in Atlasia.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

There is nothing in Evergreen's bill requiring business owners to accommodate every customer, nor preventing businesses from choosing to decline work contrary to the purpose of their business.

For example, are you requiring Catholic churches to admit homosexual men to the priesthood? If not, why not?

Clearly freedom of religion and association still exists in Atlasia.

Section 1 of the Evergreen-Tmthforu LGBTQ+ Rights Act explicitly states that the provisions of Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 apply to cases of discrimination "on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity." Title II, if you were not aware, prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or (now) sexual orientation by businesses that engage in interstate commerce.  Ergo, refusing to serve a client due to their sexual orientation is a violation of both Acts, and regional legislation that would protect such actions are contrary to the terms of Article VIII of the Constitution. Because the CRA applies only to businesses, religious institutions (such as the church in your hypothetical example) are not affected by this legislation and may continue to act in accordance with the teachings of their faith.

[Wisconsin+17]

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One, Barronelle Stutzmann isn't engaging in 'interstate commerce'.

Two, Barronelle Stutzmann isn't refusing to serve a client because of their sexual orientation. She is not required to cater and provide flowers for every occasion. The CRA does not say, "Barronelle must provide flowers for a Klan gathering".

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And, as I've shown the CRA doesn't apply to businesses like Barronelle's.  

You are welcome to attempt to quash this bill, but unfortunately, the bill as written doesn't apply.

Similar businesses to Barronelle's that operate within the bounds of their state are not bound by the regulations already passed, and their owners are protected by freedom of conscience and association in the first amendment.  They are also protected against unreasonable penalties that far exceed any harms incurred.
 
Three, given separation of powers, the CRA would not apply to inter-regional commerce. Meaning that the South has jurisdiction to regulate all enterprises that only operate in the South. While your federal legislation applies to businesses that operate throughout Atlasia, ours applies to businesses that operate within the South.
  
 

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I don't know Barronelle Stutzmann. I have never met her, and I do not pretend to be familiar with the way she runs her business. Yet whether or not a single business owner in a single transaction violated the terms of the Evergreen-Tmthforu Act and the CRA is wholly irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. We are not discussing whether Barronelle Stutzmann was within her rights to refuse service to a particular person; we are discussing whether legislation that states "business owners may choose to decline to service a customer, at any time and for any reason," contradicts Federal Law and therefore the Constitution. This bill, as currently proposed, does not apply to a single business; it applies to all businesses in the South. The CRA and the Evergreen-Tmthforu Act clearly state that businesses that engage in interstate commerce do not have the rights that this bill would grant them; therefore, this bill is in violation of both of those acts and is thus unconstitutional.

Your interpretation of what constitutes "interstate commerce" is novel and not at all in keeping with the verdict reached by the Supreme Court in Katzenbach v. McClung, which established the precedent by which cases under the CRA are judged. Even if it were, whether Ms. Stutzmann's business is or is not engaged in interstate commerce is beside the point, because (again) this bill does not apply to a single business; rather, it purports to apply to all businesses in the South, and clearly there are many, many Southern businesses that engage in interstate commerce as defined by the CRA and upheld by Katzenbach v. McClung.

My job as Secretary of the Interior is to uphold the law as it now stands, and the law clearly states that businesses that engage in interstate commerce may not discriminate against potential clients on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. If you would like to offer an amendment to rectify this lack of compliance with federal statute, then I can return to my daily responsibilities and leave the Chamber of Delegates to debate the merits of this proposal. While the current text remains, however, this bill stands in violation of two federal laws and Article VIII of the Constitution, and it would be a dereliction of duty for me to permit it's unchallenged execution.

[Wisconsin+17]

You have completely ignored half the argument, Secretary Truman. Do you believe that a baker should be forced under the CRA to bake a cake for a KKK meeting? Yes or no?

As worded, a business could not bar someone who was homosexual from their establishment. But they could decline to cater a wedding.

You really should read up on Barronelle's case before commenting on this proposed law. The CRA does not prevent a business owned from declining business that they do not want.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

You have completely ignored half the argument, Secretary Truman. Do you believe that a baker should be forced under the CRA to bake a cake for a KKK meeting? Yes or no?

No, because such a refusal would not be based on the race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender identity of the person(s) refused service.

As worded, a business could not bar someone who was homosexual from their establishment. But they could decline to cater a wedding.

You really should read up on Barronelle's case before commenting on this proposed law. The CRA does not prevent a business owned from declining business that they do not want.

As I stated earlier, the question of whether or not Ms. Stutzmann was within her rights in that particular incident is wholly irrelevant here, because the bill as it stands does not apply to a single industry or line of service; it applies to all Southern businesses. There might be an argument to be made that a catering service is sufficiently different from a restaurant or motel to not constitute "interstate commerce" - I would need to review the particulars of Title II to know for sure - but we're not discussing a bill that allows caterers to decline to serve a gay wedding; we're discussing a bill that would allow all businesses to refuse service to a particular person or persons "at any time and for any reason." The CRA and the Evergreen-Tmthforu Act explicitly state that "no, there are circumstances in which certain businesses may not refuse service to a person or persons," so as long as this bill purports to apply to all businesses in all transactions, it is plainly unconstitutional.

If you're intention is for these provisions to apply only to the catering industry, or only to businesses that service weddings, then you need to write an amendment, because the bill as it now stands does not say that. The current text would authorize Southern businesses to refuse to serve any person for literally any reason, including all of the circumstances when the CRA and the Evergreen-Tmthforu Act state that businesses cannot make such a refusal. I don't know how to be any more clear about this: as long as this bill purports to apply to all Southern businesses, without distinction, this bill stands in violation of two federal laws and, therefore, the Constitution. That's all there is to it.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Then the same is true for a wedding.

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Evergreen's bill isn't the *only* part of the constitution. Business owners retain their rights to freedom of association and conscience, per the first amendment. Also there is the Eighth amendment prohibiting unreasonable punishment. This bill merely restores these rights to Southerners.

It's not clear to me that evergreen's bill is constitutional. As for Barronelle, both her first and eighth amendment rights were violated. What do you propose we do?

You say we require an amendment. Then please submit what you believe we ought to do for consideration.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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Then the same is true for a wedding.

No, because refusing to cater a gay wedding because the couple to be married is gay is clearly "based on the sexual orientation" of the persons in question.

Anyways, I'm not here to debate policy or to argue the merits of a particular position, because my political opinions really aren't important as far as the Chamber of Delegates is concerned. My job is to explain what the Constitution and Federal Law have to say on the matter, and I have done so. If the Chamber of Delegates would be so kind as to amend the bill specifying that its provisions do not apply to businesses engaged in interstate commerce, then I can leave and let y'all get back to work.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Then you would be forcing the bakery to cater to the KKK. That is a violation of the first amendment.

[Wisconsin+17]

I am proposing the following amendment:

Businesses located within the South with greater than 50 percent of their revenue derived within the South may choose to decline to service a customer, at any time and for any reason, provided that they provide an alternative that will supply the customer adequately. For example, a business could choose to decline to cater a wedding, but would not be permitted to decline to service all black people or all white people.

All fines levied against Florists, Bakers, Bed and Breakfasts, wedding photographers, located within the South for declining to provide their services will be hereby repealed.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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Then you would be forcing the bakery to cater to the KKK. That is a violation of the first amendment.

>Sigh<

That's not what I said, nor is it what the law says. I understand that such an inflammatory example may be politically useful, but I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth. The CRA (as I explain now for the fourth time) prohibits discrimination on the basis of "race, color, religion, or national origin;" the Evergreen-Tmthforu Act expands those protections to include "sexual orientation and gender identity." I don't think that's particularly cryptic. No business engaged in interstate commerce may refuse service to persons based on race, religion, ethnicity, or sexual orientation; they remain free to refuse service on other grounds (such as a moral objection to racism). This is not rocket science.

I'm also afraid that the provisions of the CRA apply to businesses that are engaged in interstate commerce to any degree, not just those who earn the majority of their profits from interstate commerce. While the amendment offered is an improvement, it still allows some businesses engaged in interstate commerce to deny service to persons for reasons prohibited by the CRA and the Evergreen-Tmthforu Act. The bill needs to be amended to specify that 'businesses engaged in interstate commerce are excluded from the protections established herein', or something to that effect; otherwise, it is a violation of both the CRA and the Evergreen-Tmthforu Act.

[Wisconsin+17]

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The law is quite clear. Say I am a bakery. I cannot decline to sell bread that I have on a counter to a black person. However, if a black person came up to me and asked me to cater his birthday party, I could decline.

There is a difference between the two. Your interpretation of the 'anti-discrimination' law actually contravenes the first amendment of the constitution. Which, last I checked was still in force here. Businesses retain the right to decline work that they did not want. If the business chooses to decline to cater an event off of it's premises, that is not discrimination.

Your argument would require the business to cater any and all events that they receive. This is not reasonable.

All this bill does is restore the right of the business to decline work that it does not want.

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What you are doing is privileging one form of speech for another. If a Muslim bakery declined to cater a Christian asking them to do their wedding, would you sue them? What if the Christian asked for a Wedding Cake with "Jesus is Lord" written on it and the Muslim baker declined?

Would you sue the muslim bakery for 125k?

[Wisconsin+17]

Truman, name a business that would not be subject to interstate commerce.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

This is getting us nowhere. You are essentially arguing that our existing federal civil rights statutes are unjust and ought to be repealed. That's fine, but it is not at all relevant to this discussion because the Chamber of Delegates does not have the power to override federal law.

I have already explained the provisions of Title II multiple times; I do not think it necessary to explain them again. I shouldn't have to explain how a bill that would allow any business to refuse to serve persons "at any time and for any reason" violates the Civil Rights Act. It's not even clear that the measure in the OP and the measure you're arguing for are the same bill; in your most recent post, you talk about how catering services are different from traditional business transactions (like selling bread at a bakery), but the bill we're talking about doesn't make that distinction - in fact, it claims to apply to all businesses.

I will not continue to engage in this debate when it is clear your only intention is to hurl "gotcha questions" and misrepresent my every sentence. The bill as written is unconstitutional. If it is passed, it will be brought before the Supreme Court, and I am highly confident that it will be found unconstitutional. That will be all.

[diptheriadan]

I motion to table the bill.

[Leinad]

I motion to table the bill.

I can see the rationale for tabling it due to the doubts over the constitutionality, although if I were a delegate I'd just motion for a final vote, given that only one delegate has voiced their approval. Of course I'm the non-voting speaker, so I'll hold a vote to table if anyone seconds (despite the fact I'm not a fan of tabling stuff ).

[Wisconsin+17]

I move for a final vote over Diptherian's objections.

[diptheriadan]

I now open a 48-hour vote on the tabling of this bill.

[diptheriadan]

Aye

[Wisconsin+17]

I'm putting a hold on this bill so we can bring up some of the other business up.