Atlas Moral Acceptability Poll

[Goldwater]

Regarding the part asking whether I find it acceptable or unacceptable that married men and women have affairs -is this strictly asking within the context of a monogamous relationship in which the other partner has an affair without the other's consent?  Or are you extending this to swinging/polyamory which can be regarded as consensual affairs? 

I interpreted it as the former. I wouldn't consider it to be an "affair" if it's consensual, and there is also a separate question for polygamy.

[Kingpoleon]

13. It's already dead. A

That is not how the vast majority of fur sold is obtained.  There are dedicated facilities that breed and cage animals for their fur, which is removed from the animal while it is still alive.  It is left to bleed to death.

Regulations could prevent that...

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

All Acceptable except for Death Penalty and Animal Testing.

[Ebowed]

13. It's already dead. A

That is not how the vast majority of fur sold is obtained.  There are dedicated facilities that breed and cage animals for their fur, which is removed from the animal while it is still alive.  It is left to bleed to death.

Regulations could prevent that...

The point is that they don't, because it would not be sanitary for a fur industry to rely on removing it from decomposing animals, unless they directly trap the animals from the wild themselves, which raises concerns about sustainability and damage to ecosystems.

A good counter-point might be indigenous groups that live close to the Arctic, which may hunt animals for their fur, and also for their meat.  This is a far cry from the modern fur industry under capitalism, which breeds the animals for this sole purpose, and by design does not take into account the welfare of these animals.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Sobering numbers on out-of-wedlock births. I

Also, is it just me, or is there something a bit laughable about the fact that a majority of Americans say that it's OK to have children out of wedlock, yet very few who will claim that having an affair is acceptable? I'm not saying that it's incoherent, I just think that it's telling that more of us are bothered by a betrayal of our romantic ideals about marriage than we are about the failure of marriage as a structure for sustaining stable families.

I think that's usually been the case, historically and cross-culturally, that adultery is judged more harshly than having a child outside of marriage.  Marriage typically involves an (often explicit) promise to faithfulness, which also works to safeguard the marriage as stable for any children involved.  It can also be a matter of wanting to show some respect to the parent-child relationship in whatever form it takes, and/or not wanting to judge those who are doing their best to raise a child as a single parent - especially as in the present day when most people know someone in that situation. Plus there are many who do not want to encourage abortion by making it unacceptable to have a child outside of marriage. 

[bagelman]

Sobering numbers on out-of-wedlock births. I

Also, is it just me, or is there something a bit laughable about the fact that a majority of Americans say that it's OK to have children out of wedlock, yet very few who will claim that having an affair is acceptable? I'm not saying that it's incoherent, I just think that it's telling that more of us are bothered by a betrayal of our romantic ideals about marriage than we are about the failure of marriage as a structure for sustaining stable families.

Well, the scenario of poor single parent households immediately being forced on welfare and into a life of stressful and unfulfilling adulthood for the parent and a hectic and troubled childhood for the child wasn't actually the scenario that popped into my head. I was thinking of a rich man having a child with a surrogate mother and then raising it as his own, as a single parent, out of wedlock. Funnily enough, the former scenario is more common. But the latter scenario is an example of the intentional creation of a non-traditional family unit, something cultural libertarians could be OK with.

Besides, having an affair is just an ultimate betrayal of trust on romantic, family, and spiritual levels. In our individualistic culture marriage might be viewed as a personal achievement, the spouse a personal asset that gives emotional support and can must be maintained by giving those same things back. A child..is a bit more one sided. In a capitalistic mindset, a child is a long term investment. A parent may be OK with sacrificing the day to day joys of parenthood and become distant in exchange for having more day to day freedom and still having a smaller "stake" in the child. But the other parent, if hostile, could try to monopolize the child, and out of spite/concern/whatever block the other parent from having a "stake" in the child, thus denying them the "return" on their "investment".


or maybe the above is garbble whatever

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Gay Relations: Good

Having a baby outside of marriage: Nothing wrong with it

Sex outside of marriage: Acceptable

Divorce: Ditto

Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Could save lives. Moral obligation.

Polygamy: Human psychology is more suited to this then monogamy. People can love multiple people at once, and most (link) people cannot manage to keep committed. Somewhere between 25 and 72 percent of all married people have had affairs, and only a handful of them had a strained relationship with their partner. Our expectation of monogamy just wedges people apart and destroys loving relationships. Acceptable.

Cloning humans: Fine as long as you could make sure the process didn't go wrong and hurt the person being born from the cloning(who wouldn't be the same as their genetic parent btw. Environmental factors matter a lot)

Doctor-assisted suicide: Fine if the person chooses it

Suicide: A tragic thing, calling it morally unacceptable is a horrific insult to the people who've been hurt badly enough to do it.

Gambling: Why does anyone have a problem with this.

Abortion: No moral issues with it.

Cloning animals: Can't think of any good reasons why it would be unacceptable.

Fur: Acceptable

Affairs: See polygamy

Death Penalty: Didn't vote, oppose for practicality's sake, morality of it is fuzzy and complex, case by case, etc.

Medical Testing on Animals: Humans > animals. Needs to be done to develop life saving treatments.

[Mr. Smith]

Obviously there are nuances to these things, but I'm sticking with one side or the other, same way FF and HP usually works, same way Siskel & Ebert gave thumbs up or down. Anyway:

Gay Relations: Acceptable
Having a baby outside of marriage: Unacceptable
Sex outside of marriage: Unacceptable
Divorce: Acceptable
Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Unacceptable
Polygamy: Acceptable
Cloning humans: Unacceptable
Doctor-assisted suicide: Unacceptable
Suicide: Unacceptable
Gambling: Unacceptable
Abortion: Unacceptable
Cloning animals: Unacceptable
Fur: Acceptable
Affairs: Unacceptable
Death Penalty: Acceptable
Medical Testing on Animals: Unacceptable

[JA]

These are the results as of 1:37am EST with 57 votes cast...

Gay or lesbian relations
Acceptable: 80.7% - 19.3%

Having a baby outside of marriage
Acceptable: 70.9% - 29.1%

Sex between an unmarried man and woman
Acceptable: 82.1% - 17.9%

Divorce
Acceptable: 86.0% - 14.0%

Medical research using stem cells obtained from human embryos
Acceptable: 71.4% - 28.6%

Polygamy
Tied: 50.0% - 50.0%

Cloning humans
Unacceptable: 61.1% - 38.9%

Doctor-assisted suicide
Acceptable: 74.1% - 25.9%

Suicide
Acceptable: 50.9% - 49.1%

Gambling
Acceptable: 90.7% - 9.3%

Abortion
Acceptable: 61.4% - 38.6%

Cloning animals
Acceptable: 71.4% - 28.6%

Buying and wearing clothing made of animal fur
Acceptable: 74.5% - 25.5%

Married men and women having an affair
Unacceptable: 77.8% - 22.2%

The death penalty
Unacceptable: 58.2% - 41.8%

Medical testing on animals
Acceptable: 67.3% - 32.7%

[Person Man]

Gay Relations: Acceptable
Having a baby outside of marriage: Mostly unacceptable
Sex outside of marriage: Mostly acceptable
Divorce: Mostly acceptable
Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Unacceptable
Polygamy: Unacceptable
Cloning humans: Unacceptable
Doctor-assisted suicide: Extremely unacceptable
Suicide: Unacceptable
Gambling: Virtue
Abortion: Unacceptable for non-Jews
Cloning animals: Moderately unacceptable
Fur: Acceptable
Affairs: No comment, but better than open "marriages"
Death Penalty: Acceptable, but mostly undesirable
Medical Testing on Animals: Mostly acceptable

What??

Let me clarify - I did not mean that unrestricted abortion was morally acceptable for Jews, I just meant to say that Judaism has important theological distinctions from Christianity regarding abortion that affect the moral acceptability of therapeutic abortions including at least life of the mother, and probably also rape, incest and early-stage abortion. I do not want to impose moral judgement based on Christian theology upon Jews.

He had part of a thread on this. It was weird. Basically that according to Catholic teaching, life begins with the Sacred Union of an egg, sperm, and soul. When the result is aborted, an unsaved soul leaves the Earth. If the soul was part of God's original covenant (Abraham's Covanent) it is already saved and doesn't risk going to hell.

[I’m not Stu]

Gay and lesbian relations: Acceptable
Having a baby outside of marriage: Acceptable
Sex outside of marriage: Acceptable
Divorce: Acceptable
Embryonic stem cell research: Acceptable
Polygamy: Acceptable
Cloning humans: Acceptable
Doctor-assisted suicide: Unacceptable
Suicide: Unacceptable
Gambling: Acceptable
Abortion: Acceptable within the first 20 weeks of pregnancy
Cloning animals: Acceptable
Fur: Acceptable
Affairs: Unacceptable
Death penalty: Unacceptable
Medical testing on animals: Acceptable

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Gay/Lesbian Relations: Unacceptable
Having a Baby Outside of Marriage:
Sex Outside of Marriage: Unacceptable
Divorce: Acceptable for infidelity or abuse, unacceptable otherwise
Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Unacceptable unless done on embryos that would be discarded
Polygamy: Unacceptable
Cloning Humans: Unacceptable
Doctor-Assisted Suicide: Acceptable if terminally ill, unacceptable otherwise
Suicide: Unacceptable
Gambling: Unacceptable
Abortion: Unacceptable at any stage
Cloning Animals: Depends
Fur: Acceptable
Affairs: Unacceptable
Death Penalty: Unacceptable unless convict shows no remorse
Medical Testing on Animals: Acceptable as long as it's done ethically

[dead0man]

A for all of 'em

[Gass3268]

Gay Relations: Acceptable
Having a baby outside of marriage: Mostly unacceptable
Sex outside of marriage: Mostly acceptable
Divorce: Mostly acceptable
Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Unacceptable
Polygamy: Unacceptable
Cloning humans: Unacceptable
Doctor-assisted suicide: Extremely unacceptable
Suicide: Unacceptable
Gambling: Virtue
Abortion: Unacceptable for non-Jews
Cloning animals: Moderately unacceptable
Fur: Acceptable
Affairs: No comment, but better than open "marriages"
Death Penalty: Acceptable, but mostly undesirable
Medical Testing on Animals: Mostly acceptable

What??

Let me clarify - I did not mean that unrestricted abortion was morally acceptable for Jews, I just meant to say that Judaism has important theological distinctions from Christianity regarding abortion that affect the moral acceptability of therapeutic abortions including at least life of the mother, and probably also rape, incest and early-stage abortion. I do not want to impose moral judgement based on Christian theology upon Jews.

You do know there are Christian denominations that theologically don't view abortions as a black and white issue. I'm an ELCA Lutheran and here is our church's stance: Abortion Social Statement

Specifically:

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[morgieb]

Gay relations - acceptable, obviously.
Child outside of marriage - fine if it's the ase of an umarried couple that happens to be together. Probably not morally unacceptable if it's a single mother situation, but far from ideal and should be avoided.
Sex between unmarried people - acceptable
Divorce - acceptable
Medical research involving stem cells from human embryos - acceptable because of the advantages of it, creating live-saving opportunities should outweigh ethical concerns for it. I do agree though that it should be dumped if there is a better way.
Polygamy - acceptable in theory so as long as everyone involved in the relationship knows and understands. Probably less so in how it's practiced in real life, though.
Cloning humans - so as long as the person being cloned has consent and there are no risks of damage to the person I don't mind. Not an issue I can see really improving people's lives, though.
Doctor-assisted suicide - I think in the issues that would necessitate euthanasia/DAS (such as terminal illness or lots of pain and suffering) it's justified. Probably shouldn't be used in normal circumstances though.
Suicide - didn't vote, not really either morally acceptable or unacceptable. This is almost always a tragic and regrettable thing for the family though.
Gambling - acceptable. I do agree the risk gambling addiction is a massive issue, but in the same way as alcohol addiction is rather than a moral right or wrong sort of thing.
Abortion - acceptable if the mother's health is at risk, or if the embryo is unviable/too young to survive. Unacceptable if it is.
Cloning animals - here I lean unacceptable. I'm not convinced of the benefits of cloning, and unlike humans you can't really have consent here.
Animal fur - tough. Voted unacceptable if it's as a result of an animal killed for its fur. Acceptable if its from an animal which is already dead and wasn't trapped in cage like conditions for its whole life. Again lean unacceptable on the whole.
Affairs - unacceptable, naturally. Is an affair with consent really an affair? I don't think so.
Death penalty - unacceptable. AFAIC you don't have the right to kill someone no matter who you are or what you did. I don't believe in an eye for an eye.
Medical testing on animals - see stem cell research. The benefits are enough to outweigh the damage done to the animals in my eyes, though like stem cell research if there's a better way of doing it without damaging animals then doing medical testing on animals should be abandoned.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Polygamy, cloning, fur, cheating and the death penalty are unacceptable. Abstained on gambling, but if I had to choose I'd say unacceptable as well. Everything else is acceptable.

Sobering numbers on out-of-wedlock births. I

Also, is it just me, or is there something a bit laughable about the fact that a majority of Americans say that it's OK to have children out of wedlock, yet very few who will claim that having an affair is acceptable? I'm not saying that it's incoherent, I just think that it's telling that more of us are bothered by a betrayal of our romantic ideals about marriage than we are about the failure of marriage as a structure for sustaining stable families.

A stable, committed relationship doesn't require marriage. Indeed, the former without the latter is increasingly common. While this trend might be unfortunate in some respect, calling it "morally unacceptable" strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

[DavidB.]

Why do so many people consider fur to be acceptable when there are so many good alternatives and the method of obtaining fur almost always involves unimaginably terrible treatment of animals? Truly boggles the mind.

And apparently there are relatively more people who consider fur to be acceptable than people who consider medical testing on animals to be acceptable? Fashion is now more important than saving lives?

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Why do so many people consider fur to be acceptable when there are so many good alternatives and the method of obtaining fur almost always involves unimaginably terrible treatment of animals? Truly boggles the mind.

And apparently there are relatively more people who consider fur to be acceptable than people who consider medical testing on animals to be acceptable? Fashion is now more important than saving lives?

Fashion is more important than everything, David.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Gay Relations: Acceptable
Having a baby outside of marriage: Acceptable
Sex outside of marriage: Acceptable
Divorce: Acceptable with the exception of divorce where's there's children in a functional relationship
Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Acceptable
Polygamy: Acceptable
Cloning humans: Unacceptable
Doctor-assisted suicide: Acceptable (and Very Good)
Suicide: Acceptable; blaming the victim of depression is disgusting.
Gambling: Unacceptable; it's okay to gamble but casinos are bad.
Abortion: Acceptable
Cloning animals: Acceptable
Fur: Acceptable
Affairs: Acceptable
Death Penalty: Acceptable
Medical Testing on Animals: Acceptable

On a personal level, I'm pretty libertarian/libertine for the most part and this doesn't really translate to my political views on cultural issues because there are social consequences to things that I see as morally neutral or acceptable. For instance, in a vacuum, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about having an affair, that depends on the details, but a society where marriage is breaking down is a society that's probably pretty unstable/unhealthy.

As a person, I try to mind my own business tbh. There are boundaries that I won't cross for aesthetic reasons or for moral reasons but I don't think it's fair to expect other people to do this; people are very, very different from one another and that makes interpersonal relationships very complicated. Having a party-line on what is acceptable and what isn't strikes me as being bad and wrong, unless it's part of religious conformity.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Gay Relations: Encouraged
Having a baby outside of marriage: Sure. A couple doesn't have to marry to love and live together.
Sex before marriage: Sure. Why the hell no?
Divorce: Yes, if one part of a marriage decides he/she doesn't want to continue it, they can't be forced.
Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Yes. We need stem cell research.
Polygamy: I'd never live in such a relationship, but if the people agree... ok.
Cloning humans: No. It'll lead to a dangerous destruction of all we deemed 'human'.
Doctor-assisted suicide: Acceptable, if a very bad condition.
Suicide: Society can't accept for its own good, and needs to prevent. The people suiciding are obviously not to blame, but had to vote unacceptable.
Gambling: Leaning no, it ruins so many families and lives.
Abortion: Yes, it's the woman's sole choice.
Cloning animals: Yeah, it's the future.
Fur clothing: No. It doesn't give anything other than a fancy coat to a person, can't justify harming a creature for it.
Affairs between a married couple: Morally unacceptable, but they're legally free to do it.
Death Penalty: No, other than for people like high ranking Nazis, heads of terrorist organizations etc.
Medical Testing on Animals: Acceptable. Medical research is more important.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Sobering numbers on out-of-wedlock births.

Also, is it just me, or is there something a bit laughable about the fact that a majority of Americans say that it's OK to have children out of wedlock, yet very few who will claim that having an affair is acceptable? I'm not saying that it's incoherent, I just think that it's telling that more of us are bothered by a betrayal of our romantic ideals about marriage than we are about the failure of marriage as a structure for sustaining stable families.

A stable, committed relationship doesn't require marriage. Indeed, the former without the latter is increasingly common. While this trend might be unfortunate in some respect, calling it "morally unacceptable" strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

I completely disagree. Marriage isn't just a word or an arbitrary contrivance; it is the legal, social, and spiritual structure on which families are built. Our personal feelings about a relationship's stability and commitment level are insufficient.

This is a very bizarre statement. Why should someone surrender their relationship to past foundations of family structure if that relationship is healthy and good? It's obvious/clear that out of wedlock birth is a disturbing trend but we can't generalize here and start arguing that it's immoral; there are plenty of people who deliberately/intentionally avoid marriage and who have fine families.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Is it moral to clone yourself, but make the clone slightly defective so you look good by comparison in order to boost your self-esteem? Asking for friend.

[RINO Tom]

Gay and lesbian relations: Acceptable
Having a baby outside of marriage: Acceptable
Sex outside of marriage: Acceptable
Divorce: Acceptable, though unfortunate
Embryonic stem cell research: Acceptable
Polygamy: Not acceptable, but I don't feel strongly about it
Cloning humans: Completely unacceptable
Doctor-assisted suicide: Very conflicted, lean acceptable (kind of take a "it's not my call" stance)
Suicide: See above?  Odd one to include, as others have mentioned
Gambling: Acceptable
Abortion: Lean morally unacceptable, lean legally acceptable
Cloning animals: Lean unacceptable
Fur: Acceptable
Affairs: Completely unacceptable on paper, but I don't look down on people who "mess up" in that regard
Death penalty: Very, very conflicted on this ... lean acceptable if that means it stays legal in certain instances
Medical testing on animals: Lean acceptable because it saves human lives, but very unfortunate

[Filuwaúrdjan]

A lot of these really depend on the circumstances don't they? Anyway the best brushes are made of Kolinsky sable (not the same animal as the Sable but related). Apparently they're hard to get in the USA now because of bureaucracy? Sad!

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Sobering numbers on out-of-wedlock births.

Also, is it just me, or is there something a bit laughable about the fact that a majority of Americans say that it's OK to have children out of wedlock, yet very few who will claim that having an affair is acceptable? I'm not saying that it's incoherent, I just think that it's telling that more of us are bothered by a betrayal of our romantic ideals about marriage than we are about the failure of marriage as a structure for sustaining stable families.

A stable, committed relationship doesn't require marriage. Indeed, the former without the latter is increasingly common. While this trend might be unfortunate in some respect, calling it "morally unacceptable" strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

I completely disagree. Marriage isn't just a word or an arbitrary contrivance; it is the legal, social, and spiritual structure on which families are built. Our personal feelings about a relationship's stability and commitment level are insufficient.

This is a very bizarre statement. Why should someone surrender their relationship to past foundations of family structure if that relationship is healthy and good? It's obvious/clear that out of wedlock birth is a disturbing trend but we can't generalize here and start arguing that it's immoral; there are plenty of people who deliberately/intentionally avoid marriage and who have fine families.

There are people who gamble and earn fortunes, but that doesn't change my intuitions about whether gambling is immoral. Also, I don't think that marriage is exclusively about the couple's relationship in the first place. Even if it were, are any of us really better positioned to judge for ourselves whether that relationship is likely to remain stable in the absence of that family structure? It's taking a serious and unnecessary risk at the potential expense of your children and everyone else around you.

That's the inherent difficulty here: marriage means different things to different people. It's a very differentiated social structure that varies by region, by ethnicity, by age group, by sub-culture even; it's not only a social structure, it's a ritual and a rite of religious faiths. For this reason, discussing whether or not "out of wedlock" birth is moral or immoral strikes me as a useless waste of time.

It's unjust that we've allowed social breakdown to occur and the rise of out of wedlock birth is a symptom of this; if someone prefers to be married to being a single mother, the lack of marital ties ought to be lamented. Nevertheless, I don't think you can say whether or not out of wedlock births are moral or immoral in a categorical sense. This doesn't make sense.

Gambling, on the other hand is deeply immoral because it's a practice that relies upon deception to make money. There's no relationship between a casino and the gambler that goes beyond the transactional. Family life is vastly more complex. Particularities matter here and "using intuition" here is likely to make you draw the wrong conclusions because our intuitions are laden with the weight of biased personal experience and social norms that might be specious if examined closely.

edit: this discussion is illuminating because it reminds me why I'm not much of a small-c conservative, which seems to be laden with the stuff of strict rules of conduct that I can't abide by. No offense man but my intuition is that the arguments that you've made are disturbing.