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Author Topic: This isn't okay  (Read 3892 times)
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omegascarlet
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 06:29:49 pm »
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This is in no way a ban-worthy statement. David has defended himself adequately. He's entitled to his opinions

Would you say the same if it was jews instead of atheists?
Jews are a specific ethno-religious group. Atheists are not defined by beliefs or ethnicity, but by lack of belief. The correct comparison, like DavidB said, would be to compare with if you said the same thing about religious people in general.

Oy vey. Would it be acceptable for me to say that David's post is almost as obnoxious and thoughtless as your frivolous kvetching over it?

What isn't okay is that the OP constantly makes threads like this. Seriously, just stop obsessing over the posts of other users so much.

This isn't some made up thing.

I usually dislike when people complain about political correctness, but come on now. You have no right not be offended by David. He is free to say what he wants to say on this forum, unless a moderator steps in, which none even possibly will.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that it isn't okay to be offended when someone says its a good thing that merely being openly atheist is enough to ruin someones political career.

I think David's assertion that Jews who disagree with him are not real Jews is more disturbing.

Then active praising of discrimination?
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 07:10:21 pm »
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This is in no way a ban-worthy statement. David has defended himself adequately. He's entitled to his opinions

Would you say the same if it was jews instead of atheists?
Jews are a specific ethno-religious group. Atheists are not defined by beliefs or ethnicity, but by lack of belief. The correct comparison, like DavidB said, would be to compare with if you said the same thing about religious people in general.

Oy vey. Would it be acceptable for me to say that David's post is almost as obnoxious and thoughtless as your frivolous kvetching over it?

What isn't okay is that the OP constantly makes threads like this. Seriously, just stop obsessing over the posts of other users so much.

This isn't some made up thing.

I usually dislike when people complain about political correctness, but come on now. You have no right not be offended by David. He is free to say what he wants to say on this forum, unless a moderator steps in, which none even possibly will.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that it isn't okay to be offended when someone says its a good thing that merely being openly atheist is enough to ruin someones political career.

I think David's assertion that Jews who disagree with him are not real Jews is more disturbing.

Then active praising of discrimination?

I think they're both pretty disturbing, as are the terrible defenses of him in this thread.
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omegascarlet
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2017, 07:12:25 pm »
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I said you have no right not to be offended, nowhere in my comment did I say you were wrong to be offended.

I misread your comment. Sorry.
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2017, 08:25:31 pm »
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I can see the OP's point if "jews and muslims" were replaced with "gays." The original comment would not last, and, very likely, neither would its poster. It's not at all a false equivalence, or an overreaction to an irrelevance, since everything on this site not pertaining to election results is irrelevant.

But are the irreligious comparable to gays, or Jews and Muslims? Everyone on this thread is arguing "no, they are different", but I say that persecution is persecution, and the means it is meted out by the state or by the mob is indeed the same. In the South, none of those three are "saved", and they would all face the same prospects of being being shunned by neighbors and coworkers, having their property vandalized, or receiving hate mail on account of it.

It's well within the OP's right to point that out being told to go back into the closet is not especially pleasant message whoever receives it.
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2017, 08:46:36 pm »
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    David's post is no big deal, but I'm rather not a fan of this growing tendency to conceptualize dealing with groups in terms of "legitimizing" and "normalizing". Things can be dealt with on their own merits and not in terms of how other people are going to see them in consequence of those deals.
That was part of the trolling, obviously. Using their own language etc.

Also lol @ those still in a tizzy over this.

Saying "irreligiosity is bad" is not the same thing as saying "atheists are scum." Saying you dislike an ideology or belief system (or lack thereof) is not equivalent to saying that you dislike a group of people.  
Also this. Over 75% of my family are irreligious/atheist, including both my parents. Won't love them any less because of that, and would certainly never even think of considering them to be any less good people than I am, G-d forbid. But I do think it is better for society if people in the public sphere, such as politicians, express religious values. It is good for religiosity to be the default option in society.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:56:24 pm by DavidB. »Logged
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2017, 10:32:44 pm »
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    David's post is no big deal, but I'm rather not a fan of this growing tendency to conceptualize dealing with groups in terms of "legitimizing" and "normalizing". Things can be dealt with on their own merits and not in terms of how other people are going to see them in consequence of those deals.
That was part of the trolling, obviously. Using their own language etc.

Also lol @ those still in a tizzy over this.

Saying "irreligiosity is bad" is not the same thing as saying "atheists are scum." Saying you dislike an ideology or belief system (or lack thereof) is not equivalent to saying that you dislike a group of people.  
Also this. Over 75% of my family are irreligious/atheist, including both my parents. Won't love them any less because of that, and would certainly never even think of considering them to be any less good people than I am, G-d forbid. But I do think it is better for society if people in the public sphere, such as politicians, express religious values. It is good for religiosity to be the default option in society.

This sounds reminiscent of "I'm not racist because I have black friends." Saying something "shouldn't be legitimized" is a condemnation of it. Saying something shouldn't be a part of the public sphere is attacking it. Considering that you're advocating for A. basically any religious belief other then atheism getting a say, and B. denying atheists any place in the public sphere, your comments are pretty bigoted against atheists.

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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2017, 11:02:09 pm »
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FFS Scarlet, take a chill pill. I very much disagree with David on society being better off if politicians express their religious view sand that religiosity should the default option in society, but to compare those claims to racism is insane.
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2017, 11:35:38 pm »
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This sounds reminiscent of "I'm not racist because I have black friends." Saying something "shouldn't be legitimized" is a condemnation of it. Saying something shouldn't be a part of the public sphere is attacking it. Considering that you're advocating for A. basically any religious belief other then atheism getting a say, and B. denying atheists any place in the public sphere, your comments are pretty bigoted against atheists.
lol seek help
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2017, 12:04:27 am »
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The back and forth on this matter, which could have spun totally out of control, I think was well handled by the respective interlocutors, and the matter, and competing considerations, hashed out rather well. So kudos for the participants on that.

My only suggestion, is that that one thinks a bit more before one posts something "edgy," and try to ponder if a bit more diplomacy might be in order - if only to generate more light and less heat.

Just a thought, and my opinion.  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 12:06:58 am by Torie »Logged
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2017, 02:36:26 am »
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hey frank i didn't know they were letting you back in around here, good to see you
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2017, 02:47:52 am »
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What does "unaffiliated" actually mean? Like, if you go to church at times but you're not a member of it yet you do self-ID as a certain denomination, are you considered to be unaffiliated?

Anyway, great to see quite some Congresspeople don't want to come out regarding their irreligiosity. It should not be normalized or promoted.

If this was referring to jews or muslims it would likely lead to a ban. This is unnacceptable bigotry.

Criticizing a religion or a lack thereof has not ever been banworthy here, but it's interesting that you think it should be.
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2017, 09:08:40 am »
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hey frank i didn't know they were letting you back in around here, good to see you

Who?
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2017, 09:22:13 am »
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What does "unaffiliated" actually mean? Like, if you go to church at times but you're not a member of it yet you do self-ID as a certain denomination, are you considered to be unaffiliated?

Anyway, great to see quite some Congresspeople don't want to come out regarding their irreligiosity. It should not be normalized or promoted.

If this was referring to jews or muslims it would likely lead to a ban. This is unnacceptable bigotry.

Criticizing a religion or a lack thereof has not ever been banworthy here, but it's interesting that you think it should be.

My impression is that saying "great to see quite some Congresspeople don't want to come out regarding their Judaism. It should not be normalized or promoted." would recieve a ban. It seems(?) that it wouldn't.

Though it is still distressing that people seem to not care about this when saying the same thing about any other religion would turn a large portion of the forum against them.

This sounds reminiscent of "I'm not racist because I have black friends." Saying something "shouldn't be legitimized" is a condemnation of it. Saying something shouldn't be a part of the public sphere is attacking it. Considering that you're advocating for A. basically any religious belief other then atheism getting a say, and B. denying atheists any place in the public sphere, your comments are pretty bigoted against atheists.
lol seek help

Being sensitive about someone saying you have no right to participate in the public sphere because you're an atheist (esp. when, as you yourself admitted, atheists facing discrimination is a common thing), is not unreasonable.

I question those who link the actions of the israeli government and people of Jewish descent together in a way that a criticism of one is equal to an attack on the other.
This is like saying "I support segregation but I really really like black people"

Declaring any criticism of a government antisemitism is.
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 10:33:17 am »
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again: lmao. you're gonna continue whining here? because it's p clear my initial comment isn't going anywhere
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 10:57:04 am »
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Again, there is a sociological argument for this that is devoid of any contemplation as to the Salvation of Man.
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2017, 12:30:36 pm »
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Again, there is a sociological argument for this that is devoid of any contemplation as to the Salvation of Man.

Its so good that you haven't showed the slightest bit of evidence that it exists! What a strong argument!

again: lmao. you're gonna continue whining here? because it's p clear my initial comment isn't going anywhere

Well, you seem to give zero f**ks about the fact that it was an awful, bigoted post.
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2017, 04:41:58 pm »
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Again, there is a sociological argument for this that is devoid of any contemplation as to the Salvation of Man.

     I've seen more and more people make the case for the social value of religion. It's certainly an interesting one, though I would suggest it depends heavily on what we're talking about in terms of religion here.
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2017, 05:13:20 pm »
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I didn't think DavidB's comments were particularly funny.  And I don't like how, especially the Jews in this thread, are trolling Omegascarlet when it's clear she doesn't find it funny.  It turns into bullying at that point.


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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2017, 07:22:22 pm »
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David's comment has about as much relevance as a non-binding UN resolution.  Maybe everyone on both sides should sit down and hug it out, butch.
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2017, 08:00:14 pm »
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I didn't think DavidB's comments were particularly funny.  And I don't like how, especially the Jews in this thread, are trolling Omegascarlet when it's clear she doesn't find it funny.  It turns into bullying at that point.

...
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« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2017, 08:27:42 pm »
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It seems to me that pretty much everyone in this thread should take to heart the advice that Thumper's dad gave him in Bambi.  Some need it more than others.

That said, I'd say that people projecting a false religiosity, such as our current President-elect, are far worse than either people who are either truly religious or irreligious.
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« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2017, 08:46:34 pm »
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This comment isn't that bad, especially when he has a recent history of calling users critical of Israel Nazi's and segregationists
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« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2017, 09:41:37 pm »
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I didn't think DavidB's comments were particularly funny.  And I don't like how, especially the Jews in this thread, are trolling Omegascarlet when it's clear she doesn't find it funny.  It turns into bullying at that point.
Let's look at other Jews' comments. Trolling or not? You be the judge.

This is in no way a ban-worthy statement. David has defended himself adequately. He's entitled to his opinions
Wow! What a terrible troll. Next...

Saying "irreligiosity is bad" is not the same thing as saying "atheists are scum." Saying you dislike an ideology or belief system (or lack thereof) is not equivalent to saying that you dislike a group of people. 
Another nasty troll!

I think David's assertion that Jews who disagree with him are not real Jews is more disturbing.
And another Jew who obviously defends me here by trolling Omegascarlet.

As far as I know these are all the Jewish posters, so are you just imagining things, Snowguy? I mean, if you call me a troll I'm fine with that, but my fellow tribesmen have been perfectly polite.
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2017, 12:36:32 am »
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especially the Jews in this thread

Excuse me?
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2017, 01:03:50 am »
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In regards to Ms. O'Hara's questioning of my assertion, the answer is pretty simple (and yes, I made my statement somewhat sarcastically; absurdity is amusing).I don't refer to religion in some "noble lie" sense, where elites shake hands between each other and tell themselves that the people need a faith to keep them in line. While that, in modified form, is, let's say, "a factor", that's hardly the crux of my point. Religion is a socializing force. It does not only assign values or rules to individuals, it provides a medium by which humans come to know each other. A weekly meeting place, a shared experience, a tradition, a common past, these are things that help to color life and craft a society. Civil society is an important factor in maintaining democratic norms--not merely tolerance, but compromise, involvement, and so on. Religion forms an important part of civil society.

Empirically, from what I have seen, certain desirable social characteristics have been shown to be associated with religiosity. Variables that apparently possessed a relationship with religion (per my recollection) included family stability, educational attainment, and (lack of) drug addiction. I couldn't tell you whether or not (A) this is a direct relationship where "religion" leads to 'x'; (B) the reverse; or (C) a third variable acting on the first two. Nevertheless, it merits at the least consideration and further investigation. Probably my "favorite" subject (in terms of providing a source of perverse fascination) has been suicide where, in the United States, it could be tied to social factors--high income, being white, and, yes, secularism. You could naturally assert that this is the result of mystical taboos against suicide, but it serves as evidence of a larger perspective--that it acts as a force to tie you in to society. The social determinants of suicide are those same things that indicate separation, individualism, and atomization.

Obviously, my opinion is colored by my background--as is yours, and, weirdly enough, everyone's. Nevertheless, I don't think it would be absurd to view the demise of faith as a bad thing from a humanistic or sociological view. The triumph of atomization and anti-social attitudes since, say, 1991 or earlier (1978!?) could reasonably appraised as a disaster.

Naturally, this is not a perfect hypothesis. One of my... complaints about contemporary American religion is that, in particular geographic regions, "faith alone" theology acts to promote a very... complacent and self-centered religion that contains with it many of the poisonous aspects of secularism shrouded in a cushion of Divine endorsement.
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