Favorite Poster: Best of the Best

[Antonio the Sixth]

I still think Mikado is an underappreciated Atlas gem.

Really? I think he's overrated. He was one of those awful semi-ironic left-wing T***p supporters back in the day, which to me is the strongest indicator of intellectual shallowness.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the description of me as "left-wing."

You're right. It would be a contradiction in terms anyway, since a genuine leftist would never support T***p.

Doesn't change my point.

[Santander]

I still think Mikado is an underappreciated Atlas gem.

Really? I think he's overrated. He was one of those awful semi-ironic left-wing T***p supporters back in the day, which to me is the strongest indicator of intellectual shallowness.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the description of me as "left-wing."

You're right. It would be a contradiction in terms anyway, since a genuine leftist would never support T***p.

Doesn't change my point.

I do.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I still think Mikado is an underappreciated Atlas gem.

Really? I think he's overrated. He was one of those awful semi-ironic left-wing T***p supporters back in the day, which to me is the strongest indicator of intellectual shallowness.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the description of me as "left-wing."

You're right. It would be a contradiction in terms anyway, since a genuine leftist would never support T***p.

Doesn't change my point.

I do.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Maxwell]

The Mikado, Nathan, Al

[Mr. Morden]

He was one of those awful semi-ironic left-wing T***p supporters back in the day.

Really?  I actually don't remember that at all.  IIRC, he was posting very little during primary season, and I don't remember him commenting on Trump.

[Antonio the Sixth]

He was one of those awful semi-ironic left-wing T***p supporters back in the day.

Really?  I actually don't remember that at all.  IIRC, he was posting very little during primary season, and I don't remember him commenting on Trump.

I remember an IRC chat in which he said that very explicitly (along with, sadly, Gully, whom undoubtedly should have known better). I also note he hasn't denied it.

[The Mikado]

He was one of those awful semi-ironic left-wing T***p supporters back in the day.

Really?  I actually don't remember that at all.  IIRC, he was posting very little during primary season, and I don't remember him commenting on Trump.

I remember an IRC chat in which he said that very explicitly (along with, sadly, Gully, whom undoubtedly should have known better). I also note he hasn't denied it.

My biggest regret of the 2016 election season was letting the debates and Trump's tape leaking in September talk me out of my long-standing belief that Trump was a strong candidate who was going to seriously challenge, if not beat, Hillary Clinton.

My proudest moment of the 2016 Presidential campaign was seeing Donald Trump in August of 2015, deciding "He's a winner," and sticking through that for months on end while everyone was saying I was trolling or being stupid for thinking that Trump could actually win. Including for that week after Iowa when everyone said he was toast. I believed in Donald Trump's ability to win the nomination wholeheartedly, and I just wish I had kept a similar belief through the general election and not let myself be talked out of it.

I still feel proud that I called that primary when so many people here were left looking like idiots for saying that there was no way that Donald Trump would win.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Your talking about "is". I'm talking about "ought". You still haven't answered.

[Bacon King]

Your talking about "is". I'm talking about "ought". You still haven't answered.

Mikado didn't support Trump, ironically or otherwise - he was simply one of the few people who correctly identified the likelihood of Trump's success very early on and was able to understand the root causes of the entire Trump phenomenon (that would eventually lead to his presidency) back when "serious pundits" like 538 were giving him literally a -10% chance of becoming President. That degree of vision and foresight is absolutely not the same thing as someone jokingly supporting Trump. You're doing an intellectual disservice to all of us by implying he "ought" to not have acknowledged Trump's success just because Trump is an objectionable and terrible person.

It's that head-in-the-sand mentality that caused November's abhorrent election result more than any other factor - so many people who should have known better were in a position to potentially stop Trump from reaching the White House, but they refused to accept the possibility of a Trump victory because it wasn't the kind of thought that "serious people" should be entertaining.

[The Mikado]

The Trump phenomenon is shocking and upsets the apple cart of how we understood the world for decades. Antonio, as someone who professionally studies political science, should rejoice that he does at a time when drastic changes to the way we understand politics are occurring all over the world. There's many a dissertation in 2016.

The most compelling thing about Trump, to me, and the tipoff that he was something seriously new and dangerous, was the total freshness of his game. At a time when every Republican politician had consigned their ideology to the Ted Cruz game of a laundry list of positions they were obligated to take to be sufficiently right wing (a game that if the GOP base actually cared about it would've carried Cruz to victory), Trump threw it out the window and said what people didn't know they wanted to hear rather than what they thought they wanted to hear. I was saying at the time when everyone was freaked out about Trump blaming G. W. Bush for 9/11 and Trump saying that John McCain wasn't a hero and so on that it wasn't going to hurt him at all, and I was right about it. The American voter is thicker-skinned than anyone imagined, and you can literally insult the Pope like Trump did if you do it with sufficient conviction.

Hillary Clinton, the most calculated and artificial politician in America, was the exact wrong alternative to Trump (though I don't think a naive crank geriatric from Vermont would've been a significantly better choice).

EDIT:

We are about to see vivid, real-time proof how how weak, institutionally, the United States is, and how its institutions can and have been totally subverted by a demagogue.

Even if Russia did release a video of Donald Trump masturbating to Russian hookers urinating on President Obama's bed, Donald Trump will still be our president four years from now and would almost certainly give a speech in which he remarked about how large his penis was in the video. Total shamelessness and ability to just keep trucking through any negative consequence no matter how awful it looks makes Trump formidable in a way we haven't seen in this country before, and I take this seriously. NOTHING you get on Trump will ever make him resign or make the GOP Congress, who are petrified in terror of him, impeach him. The only way to beat Donald Trump is to get far, far more votes than he does.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Antonio, as someone who professionally studies political science, should rejoice that he does at a time when drastic changes to the way we understand politics are occurring all over the world. There's many a dissertation in 2016.

As a matter of fact, yeah, T***p's rise is a boon for me as a scholar, as it brings attention and interest to topics I was already planning to study. However, I don't "rejoice" - I'm horrified because, guess what, I happen to have a f**king conscience.

@Bacon King: Duh. I too had long realized that T***p could win. That's precisely why I was sounding the alarm and calling out the edgy liberals who thought supporting him was all fun and games.

[Figueira]

Nathan, CrabCake, Virginia, but a lot of these are great.

[Bacon King]

Antonio -

In 2015 I jokingly made a few hyperbolic/"ironic" pro-Trump remarks because I thought he was a harmless buffoon who had no chance of winning - and at the time I quite liked the the symbolism of how he appeared to be tearing the Republican Party apart from the inside even he simultaneously represented everything wrong with the modern GOP. In hindsight I'm ashamed that I lacked the judgement to take Trump seriously. I completely fail to understand, however, how you could possibly feel justified in calling me "intellectually shallow" for treating Trump like a joke (which he is) before I recognized him as a threat. It's blatant arrogance for you to so smugly insist on your intellectual superiority - and to disregard all input and commentary I've offered ever since - just because you noticed a growing problem a little sooner than I did.

Back to my original point though, which is that your opinion of Trump jokes is completely irrelevant in this situation. Mikado was never an "ironic Trump supporter" regardless of how broadly you define that term. Mikado was probably the first Atlas forum poster to recognize the probability of Trump's success and was a consistent voice of caution/realism even when the rest of us were arguing whether Hillary would have a bigger landslide in the electoral college or the popular vote. He possessed this foresight not because he thought it was funny to support Trump (which is a suggestion that's as demeaning as it is ludicrous) but because he's capable of setting aside his emotions when he examines a topic with logic -- which appears to be a skill you'd do well to master as well.

tl;dr Mikado is the best poster and it appears that you're dismissing his foresight just because you apparently can't understand someone can oppose Trump without compulsively censoring his name

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Mik was freaking out about Trump when almost everyone else was relishing the prospect of him getting Goldwatered. We had quite a few chats on the IRC about this last year; he was particularly alarmed at the general tone of the Democratic Convention as well. Quite correctly. Anyway the odd thing is that this meant that when the asteroid struck on that November night he was one of the calmer people online.

[Antonio the Sixth]

In 2015 I jokingly made a few hyperbolic/"ironic" pro-Trump remarks because I thought he was a harmless buffoon who had no chance of winning - and at the time I quite liked the the symbolism of how he appeared to be tearing the Republican Party apart from the inside even he simultaneously represented everything wrong with the modern GOP. In hindsight I'm ashamed that I lacked the judgement to take Trump seriously. I completely fail to understand, however, how you could possibly feel justified in calling me "intellectually shallow" for treating Trump like a joke (which he is) before I recognized him as a threat. It's blatant arrogance for you to so smugly insist on your intellectual superiority - and to disregard all input and commentary I've offered ever since - just because you noticed a growing problem a little sooner than I did.

Why do you assume that my criticism, harsh as it is, comes from a place of smugness and superiority? If you've paid seen some of my recent posts, you might have noticed that I've also been intensely self-critical about my attitude leading up to the election. If you think I'm applying a double standard, by all means let me know why. I never intended to be harsher on others than I am on myself.

Anyway, I don't think I ever singled you out as a liberal ironic T***p supporter, so I don't know why you take things so personally. I don't know when exactly you realized the errors of your ways, but if it's before January 2016 then you're not nearly as bad as, say, Lief and Oakvale, who stuck to this routine until the Spring or so.

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I couldn't disagree more. "Setting aside our emotions" when thinking about the bleak future that awaits a 300-million-people country (and possibly the world) is the exact opposite of what we should do. Emotions are what makes us moral beings, what allows us (however crudely and imperfectly) to tell right from wrong. Staying all detached and value-neutral in the face of the prospect of mass poverty, death and destruction is not rationality - it's sociopathy. (And besides, this idea that emotion and reason are antithetical is one of the silliest mistakes in the history of philosophy, but I digress.)

I stand corrected about what Mikado was going for. It might not be intellectually shallow, then, but it's still incredibly off-putting.

Oh, also: while I wasn't "freaking out" per se, if you go back and look at my posts in the final weeks of the campaign you'll notice I wasn't nearly as confident as most other Democrats. One of the points I kept hammering in was the collapse of AA turnout in early voting. It brings me no joy to have been right about that, but since you're implying that I was part of the crowd that was "arguing whether Hillary would have a bigger landslide in the electoral college or the popular vote", I feel the need to point it out.

[Virginiá]

I don't know when exactly you realized the errors of your ways, but if it's before January 2016 then you're not nearly as bad as, say, Lief and Oakvale, who stuck to this routine until the Spring or so.

It must have been a long time ago then, because Bacon is anti-Trump, big league. These "ironic" trolling personas are by no means anything I'd ever do, and often I actually find it annoying because it quickly gets stale, but at the same time I remember that coming on the Internet for all-serious, all-day conversation is a pointless endeavor

I couldn't disagree more. "Setting aside our emotions" when thinking about the bleak future that awaits a 300-million-people country (and possibly the world) is the exact opposite of what we should do. Emotions are what makes us moral beings, what allows us (however crudely and imperfectly) to tell right from wrong. Staying all detached and value-neutral in the face of the prospect of mass poverty, death and destruction is not rationality - it's sociopathy. (And besides, this idea that emotion and reason are antithetical is one of the silliest mistakes in the history of philosophy, but I digress.)

Emotions can and often do make people stupid. It is a dominant system in our brains. You're right, emotions also make us human and gives us character, but one should be able (and know when) to set them aside so they don't cloud our judgement. I'd argue that peoples runaway emotions greatly hurts one's ability to rationally think about important issues and politicians. The 2016 campaign seemed to be excellent example of this. I'd say the way the average person makes political choices seems overly devoid of logic and reason and over-packed with emotion and blind faith.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Al, Bacon and Mikado.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The conclusion of primary season really forced a lot of people (indluding myself) to luck deeply at ourselves and how we had degraded politics to an amusing sport separate from our comfortable realities. Really, it didn't strike me the extent to how awful the whole affair was until the RNC when the GOP dragged out the clearly suffering Benghazi familes on stage. Most people on Atlas, when it was announced that the Republicans were going to dedicate a night for a half-baked conspiracy theory were amused. so was I. But when we got down to it, there was nothing remotely amusing about the spectacle that unfollowed, just a really sad indictment of not only Trump and the people who had allowed him to become nominee (and ultimately president) but of myself. I, like so many others, was guilty of thinking this was all a game, when it so clearly isn't. It's a feeling I've felt before. When I was in my teens, a Call of Duty game attracted some controversy because the first scene involved the protagonist (you) shooting innocent civilians in an airport as part of a false flag operation. Because of all the controversy I was actually genuinely excited to play it (and I don't play those sort of games normally). But when I got to actually play the game, it actually made me feel really horrible. There was no glee, just a really awful sinking in my stomach. It made me feel generally disgusted at myself for not being able to look past the 'controversy' (obviously drummed up for sales) and believing this would be in anyway amusing because of its controversial nature.

The RNC gave me a similar feeling of self-disgust at my inability to look critically at this awful juncture at American politics with a sober eye from my smug perch in a different country.

Although I didn't go full hog with "ironic trumpism" I was certainly no saint and for that I apologise. to myself, mainly, because I let myself down.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The conclusion of primary season really forced a lot of people (indluding myself) to luck deeply at ourselves and how we had degraded politics to an amusing sport separate from our comfortable realities. Really, it didn't strike me the extent to how awful the whole affair was until the RNC when the GOP dragged out the clearly suffering Benghazi familes on stage. Most people on Atlas, when it was announced that the Republicans were going to dedicate a night for a half-baked conspiracy theory were amused. so was I. But when we got down to it, there was nothing remotely amusing about the spectacle that unfollowed, just a really sad indictment of not only Trump and the people who had allowed him to become nominee (and ultimately president) but of myself. I, like so many others, was guilty of thinking this was all a game, when it so clearly isn't. It's a feeling I've felt before. When I was in my teens, a Call of Duty game attracted some controversy because the first scene involved the protagonist (you) shooting innocent civilians in an airport as part of a false flag operation. Because of all the controversy I was actually genuinely excited to play it (and I don't play those sort of games normally). But when I got to actually play the game, it actually made me feel really horrible. There was no glee, just a really awful sinking in my stomach. It made me feel generally disgusted at myself for not being able to look past the 'controversy' (obviously drummed up for sales) and believing this would be in anyway amusing because of its controversial nature.

The RNC gave me a similar feeling of self-disgust at my inability to look critically at this awful juncture at American politics with a sober eye from my smug perch in a different country.

Although I didn't go full hog with "ironic trumpism" I was certainly no saint and for that I apologise. to myself, mainly, because I let myself down.

Thank you so much for sharing. This is exactly why the "ironic T***pism" shtick made me (and still makes me) so angry. It's a really good post. If I was a mod I think I'd turn it into a thread and sticky it at the top of the 2020 board.

I'll also note that Oakvale has expressed a similar regret, and I give him credit for that. Those who are still unrepentant can go f**k themselves as far as I'm concerned.

Emotions can and often do make people stupid. It is a dominant system in our brains. You're right, emotions also make us human and gives us character, but one should be able (and know when) to set them aside so they don't cloud our judgement. I'd argue that peoples runaway emotions greatly hurts one's ability to rationally think about important issues and politicians. The 2016 campaign seemed to be excellent example of this. I'd say the way the average person makes political choices seems overly devoid of logic and reason and over-packed with emotion and blind faith.

Emotion without reason leads to ineffectiveness, but reason without emotion leads to nothing at all. So, if I really have to chose between one or the other, give me emotion any day. Thankfully, not only can you have both, but you can have both in whatever quantity you want. There are plenty of people who are very rational and very emotional, as well as people who are neither. This is a completely false dichotomy.

[Virginiá]

but reason without emotion leads to nothing at all.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'nothing at all.' Emotion isn't needed for an intelligent being to be productive or successful. As a human I'd of course want my emotions, though.

This is a completely false dichotomy.

Meh, some overly emotional people do need to separate the two, in my opinion. I've seen far too many people consumed by emotion in politics say/believe irrational things. But, on the other hand, some don't. Also I should note that I wasn't saying have no emotions on this stuff, but rather find a way to be able to think without them, so you have a choice in the matter and aren't perpetually guided by them. That does not mean always think without them - it just means being able and knowing when not to.

[Antonio the Sixth]

but reason without emotion leads to nothing at all.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'nothing at all.' Emotion isn't needed for an intelligent being to be productive or successful. As a human I'd of course want my emotions, though.

Productive of what? Successful under what metric? Unless such a being had its purpose laid out for them by another being (in which case it's "intelligent" only in the way my computer is "intelligent"), it won't be doing anything anything at all. In order to truly do something of your own volition, you need to have a goal in doing it. And that goal can only be emotional in some way.

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I honestly can't conceive of the idea of thinking without my emotions. Even if I'm not emotionally attached to my outcome when thinking about something, I might at least be having fun thinking about it (or, if I'm forced to think about it and would rather think about something else, I'm annoyed I have to do that).

I understand that emotions can sometimes sabotage rational inquiry (eg confirmation bias, etc.), but to me that's more a matter of knowing how to articulate reason and emotion, rather than privileging one or the other.

[White Trash]

Why are only the popular kids on here.  Not nice

Am I one of the popular kids? This is brand new feeling.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

It's an honor to come third behind two excellent gals.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

He was one of those awful semi-ironic left-wing T***p supporters back in the day.

Really?  I actually don't remember that at all.  IIRC, he was posting very little during primary season, and I don't remember him commenting on Trump.

I remember an IRC chat in which he said that very explicitly (along with, sadly, Gully, whom undoubtedly should have known better). I also note he hasn't denied it.

Me? An ironic Trump supporter? No, I don't think so. I have to admit I found Trump hilarious - and quite frankly despite everything - I still sort of do. But I don't think I ever bought into the delusion that he was a 'joke' candidate (rather, I made one huge error of judgement - thinking that sufficient GOP voters would turn off against Trump so he would lose, what I didn't realize is pretty much all those people had stopped voting GOP a long while ago).

Ftr, like Mikado, once Trump started leading the polls long enough that it was clear that he wasn't a 'flavour of the month' I thought he would win the nomination. Because I tend to trust polls, for my sins. And still do, at least in comparison to CW.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Fair enough. I still think that finding T***p "hilarious" constitutes a lapse in moral judgment, but I won't pretend it's the sort of lapse I'm never guilty of.