Update for Everyone V: Born Under A Bad Sign

[Antonio the Sixth]

Cathcon, I must admit that how you manage to reconcile your personality and general approach to life with your (no doubt sincere and deeply-held) faith is still a mystery to me.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Cathcon, I must admit that how you manage to reconcile your personality and general approach to life with your (no doubt sincere and deeply-held) faith is still a mystery to me.

As regards faith, I wouldn't call myself particularly... "faithful". I go attend mass for, shall we say, other reasons. That said, given that most people out there are either (a) unconsciously contradictory or (b) so linear in thinking that their lives conform to only a few principles, I'd have to offer that being consciously contradictory is at least a bit more creative of an approach to life. History shows us that "rational man" does not exist; why pretend?

[Classic Conservative]

Florida is so peaceful and warm

[Antonio the Sixth]

Cathcon, I must admit that how you manage to reconcile your personality and general approach to life with your (no doubt sincere and deeply-held) faith is still a mystery to me.

As regards faith, I wouldn't call myself particularly... "faithful". I go attend mass for, shall we say, other reasons. That said, given that most people out there are either (a) unconsciously contradictory or (b) so linear in thinking that their lives conform to only a few principles, I'd have to offer that being consciously contradictory is at least a bit more creative of an approach to life. History shows us that "rational man" does not exist; why pretend?

I for one am certainly not in a position to fault you for being contradictory. And yeah, most people aren't either, that's a good point.

I guess the real question I had in mind was "if going to Church won't cure you from nihilism, what's even the point?" - which I realize is an incredibly silly question but it relates to other questions I was asking myself since before.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I guess the real question I had in mind was "if going to Church won't cure you from nihilism, what's even the point?" - which I realize is an incredibly silly question but it relates to other questions I was asking myself since before.

An interesting enough question, and similar to one I was asked to answer a few weeks ago at early dinner/late lunch with a friend. From a sociological standpoint, I'm led to believe that a religion with high attendance and engagement is more "effective" and can do more good overall for society; a counter-example would be the Russian Orthodox Church's rather subservient role in relation to the state coupled with its incredibly low attendance despite high amounts of support in self-report surveys (this is rather ironic given how little I myself like to be bugged by people to do things and my own 'cultural attachment' to my church which takes priority over dogma itself). From a personal standpoint, it's certainly an attempt to bridge my nihilism with something. Lastly, there are obviously traditional and lifestyle aspects that I don't want to completely lose touch with, as, if I had children, I would want to send them to a Catholic school and wouldn't want, in that case, to be one of those parents who has no other involvement with the institution.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Thanks for the answer. That makes a lot of sense.

One thing I'm left wondering, though, is through which mechanism you think high Church attendance can be a force for good in society. I tend to think that the potential for religious engagement to improve society (a potential which I would argue was almost never realized in history, but which I'd like to believe exists) works through individuals, by proving them with emotional dispositions that lead them to improve themselves, care for each other, and strive to do good. Would you argue that it's something else?

[White Trash]

From looking into my genealogy, I believe that there is a good chance that I might be related to Andrew Jackson. As I had some ancestors who also went from Carrickfergus in Ireland to the Waxhas region of the Carolinas. That'd be kinda cool.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Thanks for the answer. That makes a lot of sense.

One thing I'm left wondering, though, is through which mechanism you think high Church attendance can be a force for good in society. I tend to think that the potential for religious engagement to improve society (a potential which I would argue was almost never realized in history, but which I'd like to believe exists) works through individuals, by proving them with emotional dispositions that lead them to improve themselves, care for each other, and strive to do good. Would you argue that it's something else?

As a social conservative, I have slightly different interests than you, but in attempting to speak both of our languages, I've been given the general belief that (1) it functions as an indicator of general stake in society--this relates both to norm conformance, but also willingness to act on behalf of society; (2) it helps to socialize people more--relating to point one, but also creating a greater informal 'safety net' for people (this functions as a defense against, among other things, suicide); (3) that it correlates with higher voting.

From an international perspective very different from my own experience, and based on my thesis research, churches in de-communizing societies that were both "national" churches but that suffered from low attendance and engagement (this is in relation to, in some cases, compromises made with Soviet authorities in order to survive, and in other cases the Soviet governments' decisions to co-opt religion as a social control mechanism) had less a stake in the promotion of 'liberal democracy', opposing autocrats, etc. in the 1990's and in our own century. Nations the democratized a bit more smoothly, or are not yet wholly lost to autocracy out of the former Soviet Union, either were religiously pluralistic, or were behold to faiths (Catholicism) that the Soviet Union wasn't in a good position to co-opt into social control instruments. (This is actually one of my conclusions for the sh#theap I'm working on right now)

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

Applied for an auto loan amount of $5,000 - waiting to hear back today to see if my bank approved or denied me.

[Dr. Arch]

Applied for an auto loan amount of $5,000 - waiting to hear back today to see if my bank approved or denied me.

Good luck!

[Antonio the Sixth]

As a social conservative, I have slightly different interests than you, but in attempting to speak both of our languages, I've been given the general belief that (1) it functions as an indicator of general stake in society--this relates both to norm conformance, but also willingness to act on behalf of society; (2) it helps to socialize people more--relating to point one, but also creating a greater informal 'safety net' for people (this functions as a defense against, among other things, suicide); (3) that it correlates with higher voting.

It seems to me that all three outcomes that you describe are the product of change in people's psychological dispositions. People will follow and enforce social norms if they have learned to value these norms (for their own sake or, preferably in my opinion, because the norms themselves conform to a higher moral principle) to the point of being emotionally attached to them. People will similarly care for and support each other if they have learned to think of themselves as part of a community. Finally, people will vote if they believe that they have a stake in society that goes beyond mere self-interest (since voting out of pure self-interest is irrational).

Which takes me back to my original point: how can any of these social benefits occur if churchgoers hold on to a nihilistic attitude in their everyday life?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's a good point. I guess that Churches can act as "focal points for coordination" (to adopt the soul-crushingly dehumanizing language of formal political theory) and as such have a significant influence of social outcome even in the absence of changes in individual psychology. Still, in this case their role is not too different from that of any other association allowing people to meet and organize.

[Virginiá]

Guys, I'm sitting here all sweaty, tremors in my hands, nauseous and weak because... I NEED ANOTHER ELECTION. I'm hooked. I'm going through acute electoral withdrawal.

Why can't we just fast-forward to 2017, then to 2018? I want answers!

[Dr. Arch]

Guys, I'm sitting here all sweaty, tremors in my hands, nauseous and weak because... I NEED ANOTHER ELECTION. I'm hooked. I'm going through acute electoral withdrawal.

Why can't we just fast-forward to 2017, then to 2018? I need answers

I feel the same way, but just because I want things to reverse already.

[Anna Komnene]

Guys, I'm sitting here all sweaty, tremors in my hands, nauseous and weak because... I NEED ANOTHER ELECTION. I'm hooked. I'm going through acute electoral withdrawal.

Why can't we just fast-forward to 2017, then to 2018? I want answers!

Someone sounds like she needs some more emporium.    Could always check out foreign elections... or be super nerdy and buy some elections sim game.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Guys, I'm sitting here all sweaty, tremors in my hands, nauseous and weak because... I NEED ANOTHER ELECTION. I'm hooked. I'm going through acute electoral withdrawal.

Why can't we just fast-forward to 2017, then to 2018? I want answers!

Lots of big international election stuff going on this year, if that suits your fancy.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

The penchant for comfortable liberalism in some of these classes ("lol, what does 'Make America Great Again?' even men?") has gotten tired.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Which takes me back to my original point: how can any of these social benefits occur if churchgoers hold on to a nihilistic attitude in their everyday life?

I'm hardly asking that others adopt my lifestyle or overall worldview, nor am I attempting to square my own despondence about the state of the human race with my desire to engineer some secular salvation for it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm sure we could speculate the potential social capital inherent in your local Elk Club, and I wouldn't deny that joining the Rotary would be "socially healthy", but I'd have to ask whether any of these clubs or organizations are universal enough to carry that same punch. The mysticism inherent in religion is something unique to it, but what I'm trying to point out is rather how widespread membership/participation would be. I could see, perhaps, labor unions being as politically "useful" or unifying, though I'd be doubtful whether or not the Anime Club can be relied on to oppose the Soviet Union as effectively.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm hardly asking that others adopt my lifestyle or overall worldview, nor am I attempting to square my own despondence about the state of the human race with my desire to engineer some secular salvation for it.

I understand, but what I'm wondering is how you, personally are contributing to the Church's social purpose by attending services, if attending services has not changed your personal attitude toward life and other people. Of course there are plenty of other reasons to attend, but you specifically insisted on your vision of the Church's role as a social force as your main reason.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If what makes Church participation socially beneficial above and beyond its impact on individual psychology is the size of membership, then this argument should have a lot less weight in a religiously diverse country like the US than it has in, say, Poland. I'm not sure if there are secular associations in the US that have more members than the Catholic Church (which I guess is the largest single Church in the country) but I can certainly think that some might come relatively close. Granted, it's probably not the case for the Anime Club.

[muon2]

Guys, I'm sitting here all sweaty, tremors in my hands, nauseous and weak because... I NEED ANOTHER ELECTION. I'm hooked. I'm going through acute electoral withdrawal.

Why can't we just fast-forward to 2017, then to 2018? I want answers!

But there's so much data to analyze in the election just past. I'm finding all sorts of interesting info just in WI.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I'm hardly asking that others adopt my lifestyle or overall worldview, nor am I attempting to square my own despondence about the state of the human race with my desire to engineer some secular salvation for it.

I understand, but what I'm wondering is how you, personally are contributing to the Church's social purpose by attending services, if attending services has not changed your personal attitude toward life and other people. Of course there are plenty of other reasons to attend, but you specifically insisted on your vision of the Church's role as a social force as your main reason.

I cling to the vague hope that I might feel some greater degree of social integration. If I were speaking to you in person, I would joke that religious people are less likely to commit suicide, so I attend as a form of insurance (while internally recognizing that if faith isn't there, none of that really matters, which is the true tragedy?). That said, me saying that in Calibri font on the Internet sound far more dark.

I'd also indicated that "sociology" is one of about three reasons why I attend.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Made some decent writing progress the last few days. Still gonna have to plunge into a rewrite before break. Got an exam for a grad class tomorrow.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I cling to the vague hope that I might feel some greater degree of social integration.

That's more or less the answer I was hoping to get. Thanks.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yeah, it does. A good remedy is to use smileys.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

True, but I assumed that the fact that it came first in your post implied that it was foremost. Sorry if I misunderstood. Regardless, this was a very interesting exchange.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Being semi-stoned when it's been 20 hours since you took a hit is not normal.  I want off this ride.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

I've been watching things and learning who Hillary really was, and at the same time seeing things from right out of the election. Hillary should have won. Hillary deserved the seat. After all she's been through, after all she's done... Its become almost personal, the dismissal of such an incredible person under the excuse of a "lack of authenticity" and a shell created by people attacking her for asserting herself in her days in Arkansas and the White House, demanding that she meet every little BS nitpick about body language while the orange rapist got no such scrutiny, the idea that she was equally dishonest as trump, "a corrupt wall street shill" and other such disgusting attacks that frankly, come from pure sexism, the country cheering on the attempts of a completely unqualified ideological hack to usurp her place in the democratic nomination(I wouldn't have a problem with another candidate who deserved their place mounting a challenge, but bernie wasn't that) because of gud speaking skills and being a man oops, not supposed to say that, that's not politically correct, and then, despite being one of the most experienced, qualified, and capable presidential candidates in all of history, losing the presidency to a man so laughably unqualified that even me, in my current teenage state, could run an administration 10 times as good as his without preparing for the job. Its disgusting, its awful, and it shows just how awful america is and has always been. If Hillary was a male, she would have won in a landslide.

[Intell]

I've been watching things and learning who Hillary really was, and at the same time seeing things from right out of the election. Hillary should have won. Hillary deserved the seat. After all she's been through, after all she's done... Its become almost personal, the dismissal of such an incredible person under the excuse of a "lack of authenticity" and a shell created by people attacking her for asserting herself in her days in Arkansas and the White House, demanding that she meet every little BS nitpick about body language while the orange rapist got no such scrutiny, the idea that she was equally dishonest as trump, "a corrupt wall street shill" and other such disgusting attacks that frankly, come from pure sexism, the country cheering on the attempts of a completely unqualified ideological hack to usurp her place in the democratic nomination(I wouldn't have a problem with another candidate who deserved their place mounting a challenge, but bernie wasn't that) because of gud speaking skills and being a man oops, not supposed to say that, that's not politically correct, and then, despite being one of the most experienced, qualified, and capable presidential candidates in all of history, losing the presidency to a man so laughably unqualified that even me, in my current teenage state, could run an administration 10 times as good as his without preparing for the job. Its disgusting, its awful, and it shows just how awful america is and has always been. If Hillary was a male, she would have won in a landslide.

If Hillary was a male, she wouldn't have gotten through the primaries. Jesus Christ, no-one deserves the presidency.

And Bernie sanders can mount a nomination challenge to Hillary Clinton, the goddess, and he has the right to, he doesn't deserve to win, but deserves to challenge her, as do other democratic nominees.

If Clinton would make such a good president, she should've seen the incoming electoral challanges, and not have places an incompetent campaign strategy of appealing to only upper-middle class college educated surburbia. She lost to Obama as she did to Trump, because she's a horrible politician, who deserves nothing just because of her position of power.

I know having ideological positions and morals that helps the poor and the working class, is an ideological hack, for people that support the immortal, goddess, Hillary Clinton, as only sexism stopped her from winning and nothing else, as her horrible campaign strategy, and her being a horrible politician, and only being considered to be president, because of her rapist husband, Bill Clinton.