Double-Think: Kelly-Ann Conway calls Spicer lies "alternative facts"
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  Double-Think: Kelly-Ann Conway calls Spicer lies "alternative facts"
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Author Topic: Double-Think: Kelly-Ann Conway calls Spicer lies "alternative facts"  (Read 5637 times)
The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2017, 04:42:23 PM »

Here's a time-lapse of the entire inauguration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdantUf5tXg

Your "reality" is wrong.

It's ridiculous that we are even debating this. It's also interesting that whatever Trump says, a reliable number of his supporters back up no matter what, even if they have to manufacture evidence to prove it.

"The Party told you to reject all evidence of your eyes and ears.  It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell, 1984
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Likely Voter
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« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2017, 05:13:40 PM »

Obviously this is all about something that isn't important. But this and past statements show an instinct to say falsehoods. So what about things that really matter moving forward like official statistics coming from the government. Trump himself often accused the Obama admin of 'rigging' jobs numbers.

Should we be concerned that the Trump admin might try some of their own 'alternative facts' for stats on inflation, unemployment, the deficit, immigration, etc. One of the reasons he is so sure to paint the current world with such bleak tones is that in the future he can point to how great things are and how it was all him.
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Person Man
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« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2017, 05:19:37 PM »

Obviously this is all about something that isn't important. But this and past statements show an instinct to say falsehoods. So what about things that really matter moving forward like official statistics coming from the government. Trump himself often accused the Obama admin of 'rigging' jobs numbers.

Should we be concerned that the Trump admin might try some of their own 'alternative facts' for stats on inflation, unemployment, the deficit, immigration, etc. One of the reasons he is so sure to paint the current world with such bleak tones is that in the future he can point to how great things are and how it was all him.
I'm really worried about that. It's kind of a future projection. If this isn't Fascism, what is?
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Likely Voter
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2017, 05:34:09 PM »

Fascism is a word that gets thrown around too much. Trump isn't a fascist, but he is a 'showman' (or perhaps a 'con man') and I don't think he is above cooking the books to make himself look better. The government is full of bureaucracy and procedures and it is probably difficult to put out totally bogus stats, but you can be sure that they will push the envelope in this area. I only hope the media and others keep an eye on what gets released on various reports from agencies as they do what comes from the WH press room. That is the bright shiny object but the real work of the government is happening elsewhere.
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Virginiá
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« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2017, 05:45:10 PM »

and I don't think he is above cooking the books to make himself look better. The government is full of bureaucracy and procedures and it is probably difficult to put out totally bogus stats, but you can be sure that they will push the envelope in this area.

Might be time for Congress to pass a bill ensuring clean stats. Obviously not this Congress, though.
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Likely Voter
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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2017, 05:53:06 PM »

well most things the government releases is mandated by law anyway, but there is discretion of course. For example there were a number of gimmicks that the Bush Admin used that the Obama Admin stopped (see NYT article from 8 years ago). I suspect we may see those practices and other forms of creative accounting work their way in.

As for the GOP controlled congress, they have already changed rules for the CBO to use rosy scenarios and to hide the worst effects of repealing the ACA, so I'm not so sure they are the place to look right now.
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EnglishPete
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« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2017, 06:00:45 PM »

Evidence that long lines kept people out of Inauguration from Right Side Broadcasting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1EZUlW9nQ

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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2017, 06:01:48 PM »

surely hasn't been a problem in 2009.
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Frodo
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« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2017, 06:02:30 PM »

Watch while another Trumpism enters the popular lexicon...  Tongue
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Virginiá
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« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2017, 06:05:57 PM »

Evidence that long lines kept people out of Inauguration from Right Side Broadcasting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1EZUlW9nQ

And yet, only a problem with Trump. How convenient. Everything else aside, this is going to be a pretty entertaining 4 years. More and more things are going to happen that make Trump look bad - real things, and Trump will of course desperately try to protect his fragile ego, and you guys will have to keep bending and stretching the limits of reality itself to defend him.

I have to admit, the dedication from some of you is almost admirable.

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Harry
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2017, 06:38:15 PM »

Why aren't the Trumpers arguing that the crowd was smaller because of the bad weather? At least that probably is an explanation for some of it. Makes way more sense than blaming a CONSPIRACY!!1
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EnglishPete
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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2017, 06:40:04 PM »

And who was responsible for making sure that the crowd were able to get through as quickly and efficiently as possible. Well that would be the authorities of DC, the Civil Service. Who hate Trump and all voted for Clinton (and before that Obama). DC voted Clinton over Trump 91% to 4%
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ag
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« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2017, 06:58:36 PM »

And who was responsible for making sure that the crowd were able to get through as quickly and efficiently as possible. Well that would be the authorities of DC, the Civil Service. Who hate Trump and all voted for Clinton (and before that Obama). DC voted Clinton over Trump 91% to 4%

The trouble is: there have been no serious reports of crowds trying to, and not being able to get in Smiley

Anyway, with your Russian approach to news and truth, before long you will invest your life  savings into the wonderful investment scheme to purchase the Brooklyn Bridge from Mr. Trump. I am sure, you will live happily every after, in secure knowledge that your old age is provided for.
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Cashew
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2017, 07:03:11 PM »

Why aren't the Trumpers arguing that the crowd was smaller because of the bad weather? At least that probably is an explanation for some of it. Makes way more sense than blaming a CONSPIRACY!!1
]

Better yet they could have salvaged this by pointing out that D.C votes 90% Democrat.
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Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2017, 07:30:30 PM »

President Pussygrabber and his lying band of amoral plunder monkeys are gaslighting the whole damned country. Everyone needs to stop enabling them, stop normalizing them.
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ag
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« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2017, 07:46:43 PM »

Why aren't the Trumpers arguing that the crowd was smaller because of the bad weather? At least that probably is an explanation for some of it. Makes way more sense than blaming a CONSPIRACY!!1
]

Better yet they could have salvaged this by pointing out that D.C votes 90% Democrat.

They do. But they immediately spoil this by saying that the DC folk somehow prevented the crowds from gathering - rather than by making the obvious (and correct) observation that they just stayed home.

I mean, it is not merely DC: it is the entire core Washington-Baltimore area. Below I list a contigous block of counties around DC that voted for Clinton: arguably, Trump and his administration are no more popular there, then an actual Russian occupation army billeted in private homes would be.

DC: Clinton 90.8%, Trump 4.09%
Prince George's County, MD: C 88.13%, T 8.4%
City of Baltimore, MD: 84.66%, T 10.53%
Arlington County, VA: C 75.83%, T 16.64%
City of Alexandria, VA: C 75.56%, T 17.54%
City of Falls Church, VA C 75%, T 17.1%
Montgomery County, MD: C 74.72%, T 19.36%
Fairfax County, VA: C 64.63%, T 28.61%
Howard County, MD: C 63.26%, T 29.28%
Charles County, MD: C 63.01%, T 32.71%
City of Fairfax, VA: C 61.2%, T 30.8%
City of Manassas Park, VA: C 61.2%, T 33.1%
Prince William County, VA: C 57.6%, T 36.51%
Baltimore County, MD: C 55.91%, T 38.26%
Loudoun County, VA: C 55.06, T 38.21%
City of Manassas, VA: C 54.7%, T 38.6
Anne Arundel County, MD 47.55%, T 45.32% (it had not voted for a Dem since 1964)

The nearest large county in the immediate vicinity that went for Trump was Frederick, MD: and even there he only got 47.36%. Pretty much all others are not, really suburban. Overwhelmingly, anybody used to regularly coming to DC comes from solid Clinton areas.

So, the Trumpistas, actually, for once had a very solid argument for why a low turnout is nothing to be ashemed of: the city is really extremely hostile to them, but it is not representantive of the country. They could have said something about the "Beltway" - and, actually, for once they would have been right. But they cannot acknowledge a defeat, even in such a minor battle, inside the enemy territory.  So, rather than staying with the facts (which, in this case, allow for an absolutely honorable interpretation), they have to invent them.
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2017, 07:56:48 PM »

It was still the second or third biggest crowd for an inauguration in history.  Not sure what we should be so ashamed of (yes, the extreme disparity picture was taken about 90 minutes before he was sworn in, but the crowd was still only about half the size of 2009- likely largely due to the DC region being so Democratic).
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2017, 08:12:14 PM »
« Edited: January 23, 2017, 09:33:59 AM by pbrower2a »

Why aren't the Trumpers arguing that the crowd was smaller because of the bad weather? At least that probably is an explanation for some of it. Makes way more sense than blaming a CONSPIRACY!!1
]

Better yet they could have salvaged this by pointing out that D.C votes 90% Democrat.

They do. But they immediately spoil this by saying that the DC folk somehow prevented the crowds from gathering - rather than by making the obvious (and correct) observation that they just stayed home.

I mean, it is not merely DC: it is the entire core Washington-Baltimore area. Below I list a contigous block of counties around DC that voted for Clinton: arguably, Trump and his administration are no more popular there, then an actual Russian occupation army billeted in private homes would be.

DC: Clinton 90.8%, Trump 4.09%
Prince George's County, MD: C 88.13%, T 8.4%
City of Baltimore, MD: 84.66%, T 10.53%
Arlington County, VA: C 75.83%, T 16.64%
City of Alexandria, VA: C 75.56%, T 17.54%
City of Falls Church, VA C 75%, T 17.1%
Montgomery County, MD: C 74.72%, T 19.36%
Fairfax County, VA: C 64.63%, T 28.61%
Howard County, MD: C 63.26%, T 29.28%
Charles County, MD: C 63.01%, T 32.71%
City of Fairfax, VA: C 61.2%, T 30.8%
City of Manassas Park, VA: C 61.2%, T 33.1%
Prince William County, VA: C 57.6%, T 36.51%
Baltimore County, MD: C 55.91%, T 38.26%
Loudoun County, VA: C 55.06, T 38.21%
City of Manassas, VA: C 54.7%, T 38.6
Anne Arundel County, MD 47.55%, T 45.32% (it had not voted for a Dem since 1964)

The nearest large county in the immediate vicinity that went for Trump was Frederick, MD: and even there he only got 47.36%. Pretty much all others are not, really suburban. Overwhelmingly, anybody used to regularly coming to DC comes from solid Clinton areas.

So, the Trumpistas, actually, for once had a very solid argument for why a low turnout is nothing to be ashemed of: the city is really extremely hostile to them, but it is not representantive of the country. They could have said something about the "Beltway" - and, actually, for once they would have been right. But they cannot acknowledge a defeat, even in such a minor battle, inside the enemy territory.  So, rather than staying with the facts (which, in this case, allow for an absolutely honorable interpretation), they have to invent them.

1. Plenty of people can take a day off to get to Washington DC to see the inauguration of a President that they love. They can call in sick and then take a 300-mile trip by car or a slightly-longer one by plane to see  a historical event, the transition between two Presidents.

2. Don't blame the weather. It was pretty good for January 20 in Washington.  

3. There are plenty of conservatives in the greater Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Richmond areas.  

4. If I am to make any comparisons, it would not be between Trump and Obama (very different politicians with very different constituencies) but instead between Trump and either Bush or with Reagan.

5. Look at something else: the voting results. Donald Trump got little more of the popular vote than did Dukakis in 1988 or McCain in 2008; both are considered big electoral losers.
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Bojack Horseman
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« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2017, 08:16:05 PM »

All this after they got done convincing liberals that Hillary was a liar, now it's an alternative fact. What a joke.
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Person Man
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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2017, 08:23:10 PM »

Why aren't the Trumpers arguing that the crowd was smaller because of the bad weather? At least that probably is an explanation for some of it. Makes way more sense than blaming a CONSPIRACY!!1
]

Better yet they could have salvaged this by pointing out that D.C votes 90% Democrat.

They do. But they immediately spoil this by saying that the DC folk somehow prevented the crowds from gathering - rather than by making the obvious (and correct) observation that they just stayed home.

I mean, it is not merely DC: it is the entire core Washington-Baltimore area. Below I list a contigous block of counties around DC that voted for Clinton: arguably, Trump and his administration are no more popular there, then an actual Russian occupation army billeted in private homes would be.

DC: Clinton 90.8%, Trump 4.09%
Prince George's County, MD: C 88.13%, T 8.4%
City of Baltimore, MD: 84.66%, T 10.53%
Arlington County, VA: C 75.83%, T 16.64%
City of Alexandria, VA: C 75.56%, T 17.54%
City of Falls Church, VA C 75%, T 17.1%
Montgomery County, MD: C 74.72%, T 19.36%
Fairfax County, VA: C 64.63%, T 28.61%
Howard County, MD: C 63.26%, T 29.28%
Charles County, MD: C 63.01%, T 32.71%
City of Fairfax, VA: C 61.2%, T 30.8%
City of Manassas Park, VA: C 61.2%, T 33.1%
Prince William County, VA: C 57.6%, T 36.51%
Baltimore County, MD: C 55.91%, T 38.26%
Loudoun County, VA: C 55.06, T 38.21%
City of Manassas, VA: C 54.7%, T 38.6
Anne Arundel County, MD 47.55%, T 45.32% (it had not voted for a Dem since 1964)

The nearest large county in the immediate vicinity that went for Trump was Frederick, MD: and even there he only got 47.36%. Pretty much all others are not, really suburban. Overwhelmingly, anybody used to regularly coming to DC comes from solid Clinton areas.

So, the Trumpistas, actually, for once had a very solid argument for why a low turnout is nothing to be ashemed of: the city is really extremely hostile to them, but it is not representantive of the country. They could have said something about the "Beltway" - and, actually, for once they would have been right. But they cannot acknowledge a defeat, even in such a minor battle, inside the enemy territory.  So, rather than staying with the facts (which, in this case, allow for an absolutely honorable interpretation), they have to invent them.

1. Plenty of people can take a day off to get to Washington DC to see the inauguration of a President that they love. They can call in sick and then take a 300-mile trip by car or a slightly-longer one by plane to see  a historical event, the transition between two Presidents.

2. Don't blame the weather. It was pretty good for January 20 in Washington.  

3. There are plenty of conservatives in the greater Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Richmond.  

4. If I am to make any comparisons, it would not be between Trump and Obama (very different politicians with very different constituencies) but instead between Trump and either Bush or with Reagan.

5. Look at something else: the voting results. Donald Trump got little more of the popular vote than did Dukakis in 1988 or McCain in 2008; both are considered big electoral losers.
Occam's Razor- He lost by more votes than anyone else in history had ever lost by and still became president so there's just fewer people out of 45% at 50% turnout than there are of 53% at 60% turnout. (So like what? 23% to 30%?) He even had fewer people come than did for W. So saying DC is liberal maybe explains a quarter of it.
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2017, 08:34:38 PM »

It was still the second or third biggest crowd for an inauguration in history.  Not sure what we should be so ashamed of (yes, the extreme disparity picture was taken about 90 minutes before he was sworn in, but the crowd was still only about half the size of 2009- likely largely due to the DC region being so Democratic).

no one should be ashamed of anything...this spin is just distracting from the fact, that the administration tries to make their own reality.

this thread isn't at all about the crowd size...it's about the spin which gets the party rolling with lying about anything with a straight face.
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Crumpets
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« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2017, 09:10:21 PM »

"Alternative facts" sounds exactly like the kind of PC crap Trump rails against.

Shell shock -> Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
Illegal Immigrant -> Undocumented Immigrant
Disabled -> Differently abled
Islamic Terrorism -> Religious extremism, selective literalism, etc.

And now we have:
Lie -> Alternative fact
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ag
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« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2017, 09:51:03 PM »
« Edited: January 22, 2017, 09:53:05 PM by ag »


And now we have:
Lie -> Alternative fact


I would like to suggest a better version. How about a "trump fact". Or, even better, just a "trump".

It would just roll so nicely off the tongue: "this is a trump!", "I caught you on a trump!", etc.
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Bojack Horseman
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« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2017, 09:56:18 PM »

It's already Wikipedia official: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_facts
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Harry
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« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2017, 10:26:48 PM »

Yeah who even gives a sh**t about crowd size. Trump is president even if 0 people showed up.

Trumpers should just say that, or if they must make an excuse, blame something plausible like weather or DC voting Democrat. Don't make up ridiculous conspiracy theories, and at the same stop believing these ridiculous conspiracy theories, Republicans.
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