Argue the opposite of your views - gay marriage edition
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  Argue the opposite of your views - gay marriage edition
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Author Topic: Argue the opposite of your views - gay marriage edition  (Read 1340 times)
Waterfall
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« on: January 23, 2017, 11:30:48 AM »

Boilerplate preface: Convincingly arguing for a view you oppose can be a way to demonstrate how well you understand the other side's arguments, and therefore is a good suggestion of how credible your own arguments are. Hopefully this thread (and the other one I made) will inspire other people to start similar threads on different political issues.

One more thing...I cannot guarantee that any of my factual claims below are absolutely true, only that they are true to the best of my current knowledge. Or I might be bluffing.

OK, here I go:

~~~

Legalizing and officially recognizing gay marriage was the right thing for states, and eventually for the Federal government, to do. It should never be overturned.

The fundamental truth is very simple: having atypical sexual preferences does not and should not render any person less deserving of basic rights. This implies two points I will argue below: 1) that homosexuality is natural, benign, and not a choice, and 2) that marriage is a basic right which must be extended to all people.

Homosexuality is actually a very common pattern, readily observed and well-documented in hundreds of other animal species including the primates biologically closest to us. And not just homosexual acts, but long-term homosexual couplings similar to heterosexual ones! There are many speculative theories about homosexuality's evolutionary purpose and why it has been preserved by evolution, since homosexual couples obviously cannot naturally reproduce, but the continued existence of homosexuality suggests it serves a positive social function.

While some people have been known to experience a change their sexual orientation over their lifetimes, research clearly shows this is not a voluntary process. The underlying mechanisms are not yet well understood, but it is basically impossible to "decide" to become gay, as it is impossible to "turn" someone gay. For the most part, homosexuality describes the characteristic a person was born with or else experienced involuntarily, something which should never be used as the basis to deprive an individual of rights.

Gay couples have by now been openly living together as married couples, adopting children, etc. for many years, and the outcomes are clear: they are just as functional, happy, healthy, and "normal" as straight couples. The long-term impact on their children is indistinguishable from that of straight couples. And in fact, homosexual men tend to earn more than straight men on average, and so are likely to be even more able to provide for their children!

Marriage is a lot more than a symbol of commitment between two individuals. It signifies belonging in a community, and a stake in the future. Even more importantly, legally sanctioned marriage exclusively provides couples with over a hundred legal and financial rights and benefits, many of which play a significant role in the long-term health of the relationship and ability to start a family. Plus there are "basic decency" factors such as being able to visit a loved one in the hospital or take paid time off to care for a sick spouse. These rights and benefits are associated with marriage for good reason, and there is absolutely no reason to deny them to same sex couples.

Some of the more articulate criticisms of gay marriage have focused on creating a "slippery slope," the idea that legalizing gay marriage will open the door to polygamy, sibling marriage, underage marriage, and bestiality. These concerns are ridiculous on their face, even if we take for granted the closed-minded notion that these other forms of marriage should be illegal:

First of all, gay marriage has been legal in other parts of the world for a long time, yet no slipping down any slope has been observed. Second, same-sex marriage merely involves a binary difference in the sex of one half of a couple, while polygamy, sibling marriage, and underage marriage are dependent upon wider social cooperation. Underage marriage and bestiality also call consent issues into question. These problems necessarily limit our society's ability to quickly adopt other forms of marriage beyond same-sex.

Persecution of homosexuals in this country is well known, and is a blight on our history. Worse yet, it continues to proliferate through ignorance, lack of consideration, institutional backwardness, and even violence. With the stroke of a pen, we have at least taken a major chunk out of the problem by giving homosexual couples the right to marry. Literally nobody is harmed by same-sex marriage, and as a first-world country in 2017 we have absolutely no reason not to sanction it.

~~~end.

Note: Please respond by arguing for the opposite of view you'd normally be arguing.
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Santander
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2017, 11:32:03 AM »

Hopefully this thread (and the other one I made) will inspire other people to start similar threads on different political issues.
Hopefully not.
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Waterfall
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2017, 11:41:21 AM »

Hopefully this thread (and the other one I made) will inspire other people to start similar threads on different political issues.
Hopefully not.
Why not?

[edit]Oh wait, I see what you did there...
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 07:12:23 PM »

begin role play.....

I hope nobody calls me a bigot, because I know that we are supposed to "love the sinner".
Although it is not part of the argument I can point out that not long ago it was not supported by a majority of Americans. It is now, but that is because our morals are in decline.
"Marriage" means something, why re-define it?
Homosexuality goes against the proper order of things.
It is not possible for a baby to be conceived by homosexual behavior and the whole point of marriage is to support families. It has been the backbone of society for millenia and allowing ssm means engaging in dangerous social experimentation. As humans we are challenged to love those who are different from ourselves that is why there are two genders rather than one.  Why not allow polygamy? Is that what this will lead to? Homosexuality is not orderly, it causes all kinds of horrible diseases. If people want to engage in this behavior that is legal, and nothing can stop it, nor can we stop two people from living together. Although it is now legal, it may be difficult to reverse, but we must try nevertheless,
end role play...
Did I miss anything? I basically repeated all the arguments I've heard, but I don't know if there are better ones. I think it would be quite interesting to see the counter argument in favor of ssm from someone who is opposed.
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Waterfall
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 07:51:46 PM »

I think it would be quite interesting to see the counter argument in favor of ssm from someone who is opposed.
Did you read the OP?
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 08:06:03 PM »

I think it would be quite interesting to see the counter argument in favor of ssm from someone who is opposed.
Did you read the OP?
Oh, sorry, I have a tendency to jump into threads without carefully reviewing previous posts.
Anyway, I now have read it. I think that you did a good job. It actually was convincing, and I wouldn't have guessed that it was opposite to your view, had I not already known.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 08:08:14 PM »

.. and I think that you could do an excellent job in conflict resolutions considering your willingness to be objective, open minded, and willing to see another point of view, all of which is not easy.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 08:09:42 PM »

by the way, I think it would be interesting to do one on slavery, but I doubt that there are many people here who favor slavery
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Waterfall
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2017, 09:02:10 AM »

Thanks 3D x 31. If it makes you feel better, I often don't read the OPs either, and judging by most of the other people who've participated in my "argue the opposite" series, neither have they, or else they simply aren't trying very hard at all. (The point is to be as convincing as possible!)

Also, I might have an unfair advantage because my views have changed a lot over my adult lifetime, so I've already argued both both sides of many of these topics. It also helps that in real life I've been surrounded by people who are A) very smart, B) willing to argue with me, and C) disagree with most of what I believe. So I'm lucky to have gotten familiar with the best arguments against my own views.

A slavery thread could still be interesting just because very few people alive today have been exposed to a sober argument in favor of slavery. I'd be willing to try that as an exercise. I hope a mod doesn't misunderstand it and ban me!
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2017, 09:06:32 AM »


A slavery thread could still be interesting just because very few people alive today have been exposed to a sober argument in favor of slavery. I'd be willing to try that as an exercise. I hope a mod doesn't misunderstand it and ban me!
I suppose it is possible that some people could object to such a thread and want it deleted, but I hope not, I think it would be clear that it was just an excercise and not an attempt at "trolling".
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Waterfall
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 11:00:49 AM »


A slavery thread could still be interesting just because very few people alive today have been exposed to a sober argument in favor of slavery. I'd be willing to try that as an exercise. I hope a mod doesn't misunderstand it and ban me!
I suppose it is possible that some people could object to such a thread and want it deleted, but I hope not, I think it would be clear that it was just an excercise and not an attempt at "trolling".

I just created it!
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2017, 11:13:32 PM »

Gay marriage is the reason I chose celibacy, because the two gay guys across the street ruined love for me somehow.
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AGA
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 04:54:08 PM »

Marriage is defined as a union between a man and a women. Why should the government make an exception for same-sex couples. Same-sex couples can still have a relationship, but it's not the government's job to recognize that relationship. Should the government recognize a marriage between an adult and a minor, a marriage between siblings, or a polygamous marriage? Of course not, because our country has moral standards. We are not obligated to support every type of marriage.
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nclib
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 07:14:27 PM »

The main purpose of marriage is to provide stability for the raising of children. A same-sex couple cannot directly procreate. Yes, I know that some opposite-sex couples cannot procreate (and they are still allowed to marry), but requiring all opposite-sex couples to prove that they are fertile and not menopausal would be a violation of privacy rights, while this is not necessary to address with same-sex couples.
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