Mexican President Cancels Meeting With Donald Trump After Border Wall Order

[JA]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_588a2d28e4b0024605fe4f4d?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

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Good on President Nieto! Mexico shouldn't pay for anything; it's not their job, their responsibility, nor is it right to make a significantly poorer country pay to build a wall meant to humiliate and lock out its people because of a bunch of racists, xenophobes, and fascist gringos who scapegoat Mexicans for political gain while exploiting their labor. Walls are, even in principle, absurd and counterproductive. Our world is thankfully becoming more interconnected, economically and socially - which is a good thing. Walls are meant to hurt that progress and this one in particular is aimed at an overinflated, racially motivated "threat" of undocumented Mexican immigrants.

[Hermit For Peace]

Here's something to think about, though. I really don't know if Trump is serious about this wall thing, but if he scares the Mexico badly enough about it, maybe they will start doing something to help their own citizens so the poor ones don't have to cross any walls to live a decent life.

I've read in the past, pretty much like our society but with some obvious differences, that Mexico's wealth is concentrated where the few have the most, while so much of the country lives in poverty. And the wealthy do not want to change that dynamic.

But if the President of Mexico gets scared enough or pushed enough by Trump, maybe he will push for change so that Mexico starts providing for their own poor. They need to take care of their own. It's time.

[ag]

But if the President of Mexico gets scared enough or pushed enough by Trump, maybe he will push for change so that Mexico starts providing for their own poor. They need to take care of their own. It's time.

God forbid. If Mexico´s government becomes serious about it, we all - alls 130 mln Mexicans - will have to flee.

[Dr. Arch]

He did one thing right for once.

[ag]

He did one thing right for once.

He had no options left.

[ag]

BTW, Mexico has nearly universal public health insurance (likely soon to be universal), free college (including the National University) and many other social programs left-wing Americans are only dreaming about. It is not like Mexican governments have not been doing these things for decades. It is just that in Mexico the state is weak, corrupt and inefficient. And if gets stronger, it will still be corrupt and inefficient.

Mexico has many internal problems that could be fun to talk about. But it is not merely that some "bad governments" are screwing the country.

In any case, even if you expropriate everybody from Carlos Slim down to me (a reasonably-paid university prof., but still rich by local standards), Mexico will still be a middle income country. The main reason there is such a pressure on the border is because it happens to be longest border between a high-income and a middle-income country anywhere. As long as the difference in per capita income remains what it is people will want to move up north to earn more money.

(Edited to remove quote of sock. - TF)

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

He deserves no credit for this. This was the only way he could avoid being lynched in public at some point over the next year. The notion that "Mexico hasn't been taking care of its own people" has an element of truth to it but it's also somewhat bogus. As ag says, the issue is that the Mexican state is corrupt and inefficient; this means that some people benefit handsomely from social programs and others don't. The PRI built a pretty formidable welfare state during the "Mexican miracle" years but it was only for segments of the population because they were a syndicalist party. Public workers did well, collecting a lot of rents, the industrial proletariat did less well and campesinos were fleeced, hardly benefiting with the exception of corn subsidies. If you were only informally employed, you were even worse off than campesinos for the most part and, in Mexico, there are many who are not formally employed.

My family benefited from the state. They're not outliers. There are many middle class Mexicans who are public sector employees or who have benefited from Mexican higher education etc. Unfortunately, there's a lot of luck involved, which is common in states that have a history of clientalism.  It's necessary to present both facts here: Mexico, contrary to common belief, is not an impoverished country and some of its social programs are functional and successful, and some of its industries and markets are flourishing. On the other hand, Mexico is a deeply segmented and unequal country, where millions live in conditions reminscient to Guatemala while millions drive luxury sedans in major cities.

I have to say, it's astonishing how Americans feel fit to opine on Mexico when they know so little about it. We are neighbors but only one neighbor has a good understanding of the other neighbor. Mexicans are well-versed in all things American these days. Americans continue to see Mexico as a land of ignorant peasants and criminals. Even as we lament off-shoring to Mexico, we can't conceive of that as something that embodies how Mexico is changing.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

With our departure from NAFTA either Nieto or one of his capos will have to meet with Trump or his capos to hammer out a trade deal, regardless of the wall thingy.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

With our departure from NAFTA either Nieto or one of his capos will have to meet with Trump or his capos to hammer out a trade deal, regardless of the wall thingy.

Mexico would be wise to avoid engaging with Trump on the off-chance that his administration goes down in flames. The Republican strategy of obstruction and avoiding dialogue can pay dividends. Why bother renegotiating NAFTA if the other party might be imprisoned?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

With our departure from NAFTA either Nieto or one of his capos will have to meet with Trump or his capos to hammer out a trade deal, regardless of the wall thingy.

Mexico would be wise to avoid engaging with Trump on the off-chance that his administration goes down in flames. The Republican strategy of obstruction and avoiding dialogue can pay dividends. Why bother renegotiating NAFTA if the other party might be imprisoned?

You can dream, brother, but he's not going anywhere for 4, and possibly 8 years. 

[MasterJedi]

Trump just announced he's going to have Americans pay for the wall with higher cost of goods sold in America due to a 20% tariff on goods imported from Mexico. I don't think he realizes that though.

[JJC]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_588a2d28e4b0024605fe4f4d?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

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Good on President Nieto! Mexico shouldn't pay for anything; it's not their job, their responsibility, nor is it right to make a significantly poorer country pay to build a wall meant to humiliate and lock out its people because of a bunch of racists, xenophobes, and fascist gringos who scapegoat Mexicans for political gain while exploiting their labor. Walls are, even in principle, absurd and counterproductive. Our world is thankfully becoming more interconnected, economically and socially - which is a good thing. Walls are meant to hurt that progress and this one in particular is aimed at an overinflated, racially motivated "threat" of undocumented Mexican immigrants.

Every single thing you said in this paragraph is absolutely stupid.

And yes, Mexico is absolutely responsible for the havoc they've wrought on the border. They decided they were going to deport their poverty to us. It's their drug cartels coming into our country and killing/raping our people.

Your fake shouts of racism are as stupid and ineffectual as ever.

That out of the way, I can't think of any possible situation in which cancelling the meeting helps Mexico and hurt the US, both economically and politically. America holds all of the cards here. Perhaps Mexico got used to being able to exploit us due to dems wanting to import their citizens for votes, but those days are over.

We don't have to take this crap from Mexico anymore.

[The_Doctor]

Dear Branch Trumpidians: point to me how the wall solves the problem of illegal immigration when the illegal immigration population has been dropping already due to economic forces thanks to the Great Recession and - someone help me here, do I just link to the NYT article about the wall and the tunnels making the wall ineffective? Do I lose fewer brain cells this way in arguing about how ineffective the wall is?

[JA]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_588a2d28e4b0024605fe4f4d?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

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Good on President Nieto! Mexico shouldn't pay for anything; it's not their job, their responsibility, nor is it right to make a significantly poorer country pay to build a wall meant to humiliate and lock out its people because of a bunch of racists, xenophobes, and fascist gringos who scapegoat Mexicans for political gain while exploiting their labor. Walls are, even in principle, absurd and counterproductive. Our world is thankfully becoming more interconnected, economically and socially - which is a good thing. Walls are meant to hurt that progress and this one in particular is aimed at an overinflated, racially motivated "threat" of undocumented Mexican immigrants.

Every single thing you said in this paragraph is absolutely stupid.

And yes, Mexico is absolutely responsible for the havoc they've wrought on the border. They decided they were going to deport their poverty to us. It's their drug cartels coming into our country and killing/raping our people.

Your fake shouts of racism are as stupid and ineffectual as ever.

That out of the way, I can't think of any possible situation in which cancelling the meeting helps Mexico and hurt the US, both economically and politically. America holds all of the cards here. Perhaps Mexico got used to being able to exploit us due to dems wanting to import their citizens for votes, but those days are over.

We don't have to take this crap from Mexico anymore.

Yeah, of course Mexico is responsible for all of these problems. You sound like a total fool, but there's nothing unusual there.

Mexico didn't decide to deport anything or anyone to us. What official or unofficial policies were directly intended to deport any of their problems to America? And how on earth is the drug trade problem in Mexico their fault and not ours? Tell me again, who drives the demand? It requires demand to fuel a drug trade; that demand comes from the United States and our government's reckless and racist "war on drugs." America has been intervening in Mexican domestic affairs for over a century thanks to the abuse of the Monroe Doctrine that made America think we could use our government and corporations to pillage, exploit, and destabilize Latin America. Not all of their domestic problems are our fault, of course, but a considerable number are either directly or indirectly attributable to our history of meddling in those countries.

Not only that, but undocumented immigrants are statistically no more likely to commit a violent crime than any other American citizen. You're spreading lies, falsehoods, and ignorance because you have little to no understanding of Mexican history, American history, or the effects of imperialism and racism. Mexicans are good people, including the hard working undocumented Mexican immigrants in America (which only constitute part of our undocumented immigrant population). Mexico is a good country, despite the problems it has, which aren't as severe as most Americans seem to think. You and your ilk, however, are bad people who contribute nothing of worth to this forum or our society.

[JJC]

Dear Branch Trumpidians: point to me how the wall solves the problem of illegal immigration when the illegal immigration population has been dropping already due to economic forces thanks to the Great Recession and - someone help me here, do I just link to the NYT article about the wall and the tunnels making the wall ineffective? Do I lose fewer brain cells this way in arguing about how ineffective the wall is?

- Tens of thousands of people illegally cross the border every year. Every single job that an illegal obtains is a job taken away from an American. Every dollar from social programs spent on them (which amounts to billions) is a dollar taken away by American citizens.

- Walls work. And they work well. When Hungary constructed a border fence last year, illegal immigration dropped by 95%. Sure, you will never stop all of it. But to suggest that a wall will be ineffective is ludicrous. 20-30 million people will not get through the border as they've had before.

- Building a wall makes it exceptionally harder for drug cartels to come into our country with their drugs. Sure, they can build tunnels, but how much do you think drugs on our streets will be reduced if the flow is brought down to a trickle instead of a flood? As of right now, any drug cartel can just walk across many parts of our borders undisturbed.

- Also, every tunnel that we locate and destroy would set the cartels back dramatically (it takes a lot of effort to build them and time cost money). I highly doubt that the drug cartel business would be much profitable anymore. Best case scenario is that they fall apart due to internal struggles as the funds dry up.

And hell, if that happens, MAYBE they would no longer have such a strangle hold on Mexican politicians (the country is unbelievably corrupt). Perhaps then with drug cartels vanquished they can focus on taking care of their own people and building up their economy.

[Gass3268]

Bears Sterns went out of business 8 years ago...

Their report, from at least before 2008, is no longer relevant to the current facts on the ground that:

1) Undocumented immigration is down (New York Post)
2) Many undocumented immigrants have returned to their home nations (PEW)
3) Plurality of undocumented immigrants are a result of overstayed visas and an increasing number (Breitbart)
4) Most documented immigrants now are from China and India (MigrationPolicy.org)

(Tried to even use conservative publications as sources when possible)

Good for President Enrique Peña Nieto, we are rooting for him!

[Hermit For Peace]

I saw something somewhere about the people in Berlin. They said to ask them about how walls don't work.

[mencken]

Dear Branch Trumpidians: point to me how the wall solves the problem of illegal immigration when the illegal immigration population has been dropping already due to economic forces thanks to the Great Recession and - someone help me here, do I just link to the NYT article about the wall and the tunnels making the wall ineffective? Do I lose fewer brain cells this way in arguing about how ineffective the wall is?

That presupposes that the Great Recession continues indefinitely.

Personally I think it is a waste of money; they just really need to crack down on enforcement.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The most amazing thing to come out of this discussion is that Mexico was saying that it would not repatriate it's "illegal immigrant" citizens if they were convicted of a serious crime in the USA.

I cannot believe Obama did not force the issue and send them back.

That would be just common sense.

Otherwise, these people either fill up US jails or god help us, commit further serious crime in the USA.

I don't think it is unreasonable for Trump to immediately fly these criminals to Mexico City airport.

There is something decidedly wrong with this relationship if Mexico wont take them back.

[Derpist]

Dear Branch Trumpidians: point to me how the wall solves the problem of illegal immigration when the illegal immigration population has been dropping already due to economic forces thanks to the Great Recession

Not true. The Mexican population is dropping for those reasons. The Central American population is booming because of illegal immigrants fleeing the high crime. Which is an overall increase.

[nope -advocating mass murder is not within the TOS - Torie]

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

But, they chatted by phone for quite a while today. 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mexico-president-and-trump-talk-by-phone-statement-expected/ar-AAmk4db?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

[The_Doctor]

- Tens of thousands of people illegally cross the border every year. Every single job that an illegal obtains is a job taken away from an American. Every dollar from social programs spent on them (which amounts to billions) is a dollar taken away by American citizens.[/Quote]

- Walls work. And they work well. When Hungary constructed a border fence last year, illegal immigration dropped by 95%. Sure, you will never stop all of it. But to suggest that a wall will be ineffective is ludicrous. 20-30 million people will not get through the border as they've had before.

- Building a wall makes it exceptionally harder for drug cartels to come into our country with their drugs. Sure, they can build tunnels, but how much do you think drugs on our streets will be reduced if the flow is brought down to a trickle instead of a flood? As of right now, any drug cartel can just walk across many parts of our borders undisturbed.

- Also, every tunnel that we locate and destroy would set the cartels back dramatically (it takes a lot of effort to build them and time cost money). I highly doubt that the drug cartel business would be much profitable anymore. Best case scenario is that they fall apart due to internal struggles as the funds dry up.

And hell, if that happens, MAYBE they would no longer have such a strangle hold on Mexican politicians (the country is unbelievably corrupt). Perhaps then with drug cartels vanquished they can focus on taking care of their own people and building up their economy.
[/quote]

The problem with this is that I do not disagree with you on the subject of illegal immigration. They broke the law, there's security concerns, there's welfare concerns, but let's be realistic about the Wall, about illegal immigration, and everything in between about this subject.

In the first place, walls, by definition, can be breached. My question was to ask how a wall would be effective. You respond to me by telling me that Hungary - a small country - walled off the Syrian refugees. You are equating this with a 10,000 mile strip of land between Mexico and the United States, including many areas that can't be walled, and the whole fact that there's a shared ocean, and other ways to get into the United States. The NYT ran an article on tunnels and how they can undermine walls.

A wall is ineffective. If you're going to hang your hat on a wall, and make it the "symbol" your immigration position is going to be well, ineffective.

If the Republicans were talking about national e-Verify, that would probably be a better idea. Also, I don't think illegal immigrants get education and healthcare benefits (except maybe via going to the ER, which is admittedly a problem).

The framing on the Right that a big beautiful wall is going to help us all is well, kind of silly. If it's shorthand for a crackdown on illegal immigration, that's another thing but my point is that the wall and illegal immigration is being discussed by the Right in the tone that one would expect from someone waving a wand and expecting fairies to appear. 

[ApatheticAustrian]

wanna know something...bizarre?

this EO was written by kushner and....the mexican foreign minister. (according to mexico, the WH denies it...yadda yadda)
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mexican-foreign-minister-helped-re-write-trump-border-wall-speech/

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[ag]

wanna know something...bizarre?

this EO was written by kushner and....the mexican foreign minister.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mexican-foreign-minister-helped-re-write-trump-border-wall-speech/

Videgaray, at this point, is almost as poisonous down here as Trump. After 2018 he would, probably, be safest as a Trump speechwriter, anyway.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Dear Branch Trumpidians: point to me how the wall solves the problem of illegal immigration when the illegal immigration population has been dropping already due to economic forces thanks to the Great Recession and - someone help me here, do I just link to the NYT article about the wall and the tunnels making the wall ineffective? Do I lose fewer brain cells this way in arguing about how ineffective the wall is?

- Tens of thousands of people illegally cross the border every year. Every single job that an illegal obtains is a job taken away from an American. Every dollar from social programs spent on them (which amounts to billions) is a dollar taken away by American citizens.

- Walls work. And they work well. When Hungary constructed a border fence last year, illegal immigration dropped by 95%. Sure, you will never stop all of it. But to suggest that a wall will be ineffective is ludicrous. 20-30 million people will not get through the border as they've had before.

- Building a wall makes it exceptionally harder for drug cartels to come into our country with their drugs. Sure, they can build tunnels, but how much do you think drugs on our streets will be reduced if the flow is brought down to a trickle instead of a flood? As of right now, any drug cartel can just walk across many parts of our borders undisturbed.

- Also, every tunnel that we locate and destroy would set the cartels back dramatically (it takes a lot of effort to build them and time cost money). I highly doubt that the drug cartel business would be much profitable anymore. Best case scenario is that they fall apart due to internal struggles as the funds dry up.

And hell, if that happens, MAYBE they would no longer have such a strangle hold on Mexican politicians (the country is unbelievably corrupt). Perhaps then with drug cartels vanquished they can focus on taking care of their own people and building up their economy.

You obviously have detailed and impartial sourcing for each of these claims that you just accidentally forgot to include. Because I'm sure you're not a mindless muppet who repeats whatever is fed into his head by the right-wing echo chamber, no matter how stupid it is, without even thinking about it.

For example, I'm confident you can explain how the wall is going to keep people who entered the US legally from overstaying their visas, one of the major sources of illegal immigration in the United States:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/424879/visa-overstays-todays-immigration-crisis-mark-krikorian
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/illegal-immigrants-who-overstay-visas-almost-never/