Explain the rape/incest exception to being pro-life

[100% pro-life no matter what]

That has never made sense to me, because, if you are pro-life, you believe that the unborn baby is both living and human.  That would mean that killing it is murder.  The rape or incest was a terrible crime, but it wasn't the baby's fault in any way, shape, or form.  To me, that exception always seems like we are sentencing the child to death for his or her father's crimes.  Can someone (who comes from a pro-life perspective) explain this position that really doesn't make sense to me to me?

[Santander]

The right to self-defense has always been understood to have been applicable even when the "attacker" is not morally culpable, as in the case of an unborn child. It is sad, and I'm personally torn on the issue, but I have always respected those who support such exceptions.

[Cory]

There is no solid justification, it's just hypocrisy on behalf of the "pro-life" movement to make them more palatable to the general electorate.

[nclib]

The right to self-defense has always been understood to have been applicable even when the "attacker" is not morally culpable, as in the case of an unborn child.

I'm not pro-life, but an example of this is where someone drops a child off a high floor and the child is about to land on someone who gets out of the way, causing the child to be more seriously injured. This would be still be self-defense and the person who moved out of the way would not be charged with anything.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

There is a way to justify it philosophically through the "tacit consent" response to the violinist thought experiment (I hate both the thought experiment and that response and think the latter is misogynistic, by the way), but Cory is right about the way most people deploy it.

[Beet]

I think (and here's the second time today I find myself defending a position on abortion rights that I do not personally hold) it's based on the notion that abortion is bad enough that if a woman has sex voluntarily, it would be considered a tacit agreement to carry the child to term, but not bad enough that pregnancy should be forced onto her if she hasn't theoretically agreed to the risk through sex. Since it's a rather middle, moderate position in a society that is divided on the issue, it's not unreasonable that a lot of people would hold this position.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Do you have any idea what kind of devastation forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy brought on by rape causes!? That's the kind of thing that tears a woman apart so deeply that she kills herself to get out. Not allowing an abortion in these cases is actively evil.

[angus]

Explain the rape/incest exception to being pro-life

I never fully understood the rape exception, but the incest exception is pretty easy to understand.  Incestuous progeneration leads to hexadigitalis, beady eyes, and batsh**t craziness.  Think of the royal families of England and France during the medieval period, for example, or of Hiram Binghams description of the Inca.  If you get pregnant from your brother, and you want an abortion, my guess is that most pro-life types who have read about what gets produced therefrom will support the decision.

The rape exception I don't really understand, assuming that it's not a close relative who rapes you.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

Do you have any idea what kind of devastation forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy brought on by rape causes!? That's the kind of thing that tears a woman apart so deeply that she kills herself to get out. Not allowing an abortion in these cases is actively evil.

I wanted pro-lifers to be the ones answering this, because you don't view the act of abortion as murder.  Because, if you do view it as the exact same as shooting some guy on the street, the rape exception makes a lot less sense.

[Waterfall]

Do you have any idea what kind of devastation forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy brought on by rape causes!? That's the kind of thing that tears a woman apart so deeply that she kills herself to get out.

Do you have any numbers on that? Are there a lot of cases of pregnant women killing themselves because they are so torn up about carrying their rapists' babies? I've personally never heard of it though I don't doubt it exists somewhere. My guess, though, would be that if women are killing themselves in that situation it's mostly due to other factors making their lives horrible, not simply the fact of being pregnant with their rapists' babies.

Elsewhere I've heard that women who bring their rape-caused pregnancies to term tend to psychologically heal better than women who abort. The logic of that seems sound to me, but unfortunately I don't have a citation. Anyway that logic might be one of those things you can't understand until you've had a kid of your own.

[Waterfall]

I've heard people who were pro-abortion concede that they could wrap their minds around it being okay to have abortion be illegal except in the cases of incest and rape. But I've never heard a pro-life (I prefer the term anti-abortion) person make that argument.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Do you have any idea what kind of devastation forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy brought on by rape causes!? That's the kind of thing that tears a woman apart so deeply that she kills herself to get out. Not allowing an abortion in these cases is actively evil.

I wanted pro-lifers to be the ones answering this, because you don't view the act of abortion as murder.  Because, if you do view it as the exact same as shooting some guy on the street, the rape exception makes a lot less sense.

Most pro-lifers seem to on some level not truly believe that a fetus is completely equivalent to a full human being. Also, you haven't responded to my point about how fucked up living through a rape pregnancy is.

Do you have any idea what kind of devastation forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy brought on by rape causes!? That's the kind of thing that tears a woman apart so deeply that she kills herself to get out.

Do you have any numbers on that? Are there a lot of cases of pregnant women killing themselves because they are so torn up about carrying their rapists' babies? I've personally never heard of it though I don't doubt it exists somewhere. My guess, though, would be that if women are killing themselves in that situation it's mostly due to other factors making their lives horrible, not simply the fact of being pregnant with their rapists' babies.

Elsewhere I've heard that women who bring their rape-caused pregnancies to term tend to psychologically heal better than women who abort. The logic of that seems sound to me, but unfortunately I don't have a citation. Anyway that logic might be one of those things you can't understand until you've had a kid of your own.

Well, I've actually heard of it happening. You clearly don't understand the trauma of rape at all if you think that the prospect of having to carry the rapists seed isn't traumatic or damaging.

[Mr. Smith]

Alright, the answer is simple:

Mercy kill.

In the former case, the child is condemned to a life of misery because the mother won't likely be able to provide for the child...or worse, as Scarlet pointed out, the child might become a magnet of resentment and be neglected anyway.

In the latter case, genetic defects could very well condemn the child to a really really short AND miserable life anyway.

[Antonio the Sixth]

OK, I feel like I've been spending the past few days roleplaying as a pro-lifer and I'm sick of doing that, but this needs to be addressed:

Alright, the answer is simple:

Mercy kill.

In the former case, the child is condemned to a life of misery because the mother won't likely be able to provide for the child...or worse, as Scarlet pointed out, the child might become a magnet of resentment and be neglected anyway.

In the latter case, genetic defects could very well condemn the child to a really really short AND miserable life anyway.

This is a horrible, horrible argument. You can't decide for someone else that they're better off dead than alive. If you believe that the fetus is a person just like a grown human being, then saying that "mercy kill" is acceptable for the former is tantamount to saying it's acceptable for the latter. And you know where that takes us.


I actually have to recognize that the "tacit consent" argument makes some modicum of sense (and I'd even go as far as to say that it's not intrinsically misogynistic, though it has obvious misogynistic implications), though I don't think many people sincerely hold this position. But it's still infinitely less awful than the one you're making here.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I believe in the right to life, end of story.  I cannot justify the taking away of innocent life.  I think there should be charities to help women in these situations.  And if I'm still alive when abortion becomes illegal again I would give money to those groups.

Obviously, illegal with exceptions is much better than what we have now.

[publicunofficial]

There are people who consider abortion morally wrong due to believing that women should be more cautious about sex/need to be held accountable for their life choices. If you are one of those people, it would make sense to have a rape exception as it's not the woman's fault for what happened to her. (Unless you're the type of scumbag who think women should share fault in being raped)

[Santander]

(Unless you're the type of scumbag who think women should share fault in being raped)

It's either rape or it's not. I don't know anyone who believes there is such thing as "shared fault" in rape.

[The_Doctor]

I don't see it a legitimate reason to abort. If you believe every life is precious, you believe it regardless of the circumstances of conception.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I don't see it a legitimate reason to abort. If you believe every life is precious, you believe it regardless of the circumstances of conception.

     Pretty much. Such exceptions are politically convenient, but inconsistent with a pro-life philosophy. I also find the incest exception odd, as if inbreeding deprives people of their rights.

[Waterfall]

You clearly don't understand the trauma of rape at all if you think that the prospect of having to carry the rapists seed isn't traumatic or damaging.

Did you read what I wrote? Here, I'll quote myself for you:

Do you have any numbers on that? Are there a lot of cases of pregnant women killing themselves because they are so torn up about carrying their rapists' babies? I've personally never heard of it though I don't doubt it exists somewhere.

(Emphasis added.)

I'm still waiting on those numbers from you, but now I also want to know what the hell you think my asking for those numbers has to do with my ability to understand the trauma of rape?? Is understanding the trauma of rape supposed to suspend one's ability to think critically about statistical facts?

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

You clearly don't understand the trauma of rape at all if you think that the prospect of having to carry the rapists seed isn't traumatic or damaging.

Did you read what I wrote? Here, I'll quote myself for you:

Do you have any numbers on that? Are there a lot of cases of pregnant women killing themselves because they are so torn up about carrying their rapists' babies? I've personally never heard of it though I don't doubt it exists somewhere.

(Emphasis added.)

I'm still waiting on those numbers from you, but now I also want to know what the hell you think my asking for those numbers has to do with my ability to understand the trauma of rape?? Is understanding the trauma of rape supposed to suspend one's ability to think critically about statistical facts?

I know that it happens. I doubt its the kind of thing that anyone bothers to keep statistics of(and I doubt that you actually use statistical rigor in interpreting anything, considering your general philosiphy). I've been suicidal before. I can emphathise with victims of bodily violation. I know that it has happened. Your "critical thinking" is just shouting "statistics" to dismiss something being true while conveniently letting your own claims pass under pseudologic based on an inability to comprehend that having to carry a rapists pregnancy to term is way more painful then an abortion.

Also: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-el-salvador-suicide-teens-idUSKCN0IW1YI20141112

[Waterfall]

I know that it happens.

For the third time, I don't doubt it!

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Fair enough. But then you must have some other reason to think it happens a lot?

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Ad hominem and circular logic. A two-fer!

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A lot of people have.

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I'll take your word for it, but my own powers of empathy are proven. Have you seen my posts where I argue the opposite side of an issue from the one I believe? I've even got one on abortion!

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I wasn't shouting or being dismissive at all. I politely asked you for evidence of your claims. Twice.

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There's the ad hominem and circular reasoning again.

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That article doesn't present empirical evidence of the claim made in its headline. Also:

El Salvador: a destitute war-torn country full of drug cartels where the high suicide rate...is pinned on an abortion ban?

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Because incest gives mutants and rape is already bad enough, so having a baby is just rubbing a quintillion grams of salt in the wound.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

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...I read that. It isn't as "understanding" as you think.

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As someone who actually has been suicidal(which you have not been), you'd be surprised at how strange the triggers are. Fighting to survive tends to not be a trigger.

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I submit my personal knowledge of these topics. I've been in the state of depression, of considering actually killing myself, and that gives me an understanding of it. I can emphasize with the feelings and emotional experiences of victims of rape in a way you can only dream of. Trust me when I say that all the almost impossible to describe to someone who doesn't get it feelings of violation, terror at the effects of the thing growing inside you, etc. are way more terrifying then the prospect of getting rid of the parasite inside you. Just imagining it makes me like this and I haven't even experienced sexual violence before. I know of a friend of a friend who committed suicide over it.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

I know that it happens.

For the third time, I don't doubt it!

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Fair enough. But then you must have some other reason to think it happens a lot?

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Ad hominem and circular logic. A two-fer!

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A lot of people have.

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I'll take your word for it, but my own powers of empathy are proven. Have you seen my posts where I argue the opposite side of an issue from the one I believe? I've even got one on abortion!

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I wasn't shouting or being dismissive at all. I politely asked you for evidence of your claims. Twice.

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There's the ad hominem and circular reasoning again.

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That article doesn't present empirical evidence of the claim made in its headline. Also:

El Salvador: a destitute war-torn country full of drug cartels where the high suicide rate...is pinned on an abortion ban?

You seem to think human psychology is a lot more based on simple logic and obvious logical statements then it actually is. ie You don't understand emotions.