Trump warns Israel: Stop announcing new settlements

[Beet]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

to put the other country's continued existence in jeopardy.

this is hyperbole.

in which way has obama endangered israel's existence? not nuking iran? asking for too much concessions?

Surrendered Israel to the mercies of the Jew-hating United Nations as a final act of revenge.

[DavidB.]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

This myth won't die, will it?

[ApatheticAustrian]

2 state solution is dead.

at this point it would need a total switch of big areas of land to be worthwhile and even that wouldn't solve israel's demographic bomb.

demography vs religion is playing out live.

[Beet]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

This myth won't die, will it?

How is it wrong?

[ApatheticAustrian]

Surrendered Israel to the mercies of the Jew-hating United Nations as a final act of revenge.

i too have specific thoughts about the agenda of the UN in some areas but which consequences does a...rebuttal..by the UN have for israel?

[Angel of Death]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

This myth won't die, will it?

How is it wrong?

He wants to finish the Nakba instead.

[DavidB.]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

This myth won't die, will it?

How is it wrong?

Arab birthrate (outside Gaza) going down, Jewish birthrate going up (mainly due to insane Haredi population growth). It's clear Israel in 100 years will look like absolutely nothing we know, but it's not at all clear it will not be a Jewish state.

[Beet]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

This myth won't die, will it?

How is it wrong?

Arab birthrate (outside Gaza) going down, Jewish birthrate going up (mainly due to insane Haredi population growth). It's clear Israel in 100 years will look like absolutely nothing we know, but it's not at all clear it will not be a Jewish state.

So in the future Jewish Israel will be majority Haredi? Do you think secular Jewish people will be ok with that once they start imposing their lifestyle all over the place? Also, I've heard Haredi men don't work... how will Israel support itself with such a large nonworking population. Economic disaster.

[ApatheticAustrian]

Arab birthrate (outside Gaza) going down, Jewish birthrate going up (mainly due to insane Haredi population growth). It's clear Israel in 100 years will look like absolutely nothing we know, but it's not at all clear it will not be a Jewish state.

since you seem really informed on that matter, i believe you.

my question on the other hand would be, if such a state would be financially able to exist, if too many of the haredi population are - together with the security system - chewing away the social safety system.

edit: @beet...great minds think alike, haha xD

[DavidB.]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

This myth won't die, will it?

How is it wrong?

Arab birthrate (outside Gaza) going down, Jewish birthrate going up (mainly due to insane Haredi population growth). It's clear Israel in 100 years will look like absolutely nothing we know, but it's not at all clear it will not be a Jewish state.

So in the future Jewish Israel will be majority Haredi? Do you think secular Jewish people will be ok with that once they start imposing their lifestyle all over the place? Also, I've heard Haredi men don't work... how will Israel support itself with such a large nonworking population. Economic disaster.

As for the first question, who gives a f**k? I don't. I'm not a secularist. The second one will be a real problem but it's not unsurmountable. There will be a solution. They will start working if they have to. At some point the free money they get while not working simply isn't going to be there anymore, pretty simple.

[The_Doctor]

I'm not anti-Israel and I'm vehemently pro-Israel but Trump has long said he wants peace in the Middle East and views himself as a deal broker. Combine this with the Bush GOP policy on Israel and it's pretty standard behavior for any Administration to start out from the premise of a two state solution.

I don't agree but it's not like Trump is surprising anyone. In fact, this is the most normal behavior he's demonstrated in foreign policy since becoming President.

[DavidB.]

Arab birthrate (outside Gaza) going down, Jewish birthrate going up (mainly due to insane Haredi population growth). It's clear Israel in 100 years will look like absolutely nothing we know, but it's not at all clear it will not be a Jewish state.

since you seem really informed on that matter, i believe you.

my question on the other hand would be, if such a state would be financially able to exist, if too many of the haredi population are - together with the security system - chewing away the social safety system.

edit: @beet...great minds think alike, haha xD

The possibility of the Jewish birthrate going down or the Arab birthrate remaining high enough for Jews to remain a smaller group still exists, to be clear... but my expectation is that this won't be an issue. Of course it shouldn't matter in the first place because we should apply a non-zero sum perspective to the land where Jews and Arabs can both live in the land without problems, but oh well.

I think a Haredi-led Jewish state could sustain itself. It would probably have a lower level of prosperity. But a two-state solution wouldn't change anything about that.

I'm not anti-Israel and I'm vehemently pro-Israel but Trump has long said he wants peace in the Middle East and views himself as a deal broker. Combine this with the Bush GOP policy on Israel and it's pretty standard behavior for any Administration to start out from the premise of a two state solution.

I don't agree but it's not like Trump is surprising anyone. In fact, this is the most normal behavior he's demonstrated in foreign policy since becoming President.

I agree. People who say "Whoa this is a new GOP" haven't been paying attention during the Bush years.

[Ban my account ffs!]

The Jewish state will die when a two state solution dies, and Jews are overwhelmed in their own "single state" by Palestinian population growth.

This myth won't die, will it?

How is it wrong?

Arab birthrate (outside Gaza) going down, Jewish birthrate going up (mainly due to insane Haredi population growth). It's clear Israel in 100 years will look like absolutely nothing we know, but it's not at all clear it will not be a Jewish state.

So in the future Jewish Israel will be majority Haredi? Do you think secular Jewish people will be ok with that once they start imposing their lifestyle all over the place? Also, I've heard Haredi men don't work... how will Israel support itself with such a large nonworking population. Economic disaster.

These trends never last.  Certainly not long enough for "economic disaster"... I'd imagine if a Haredi family has 7 kids... a good 2 or 3 probably won't grow up to live that lifestyle.  They'll be moderates and secularists.

And during that time it might be that wealthier, secular, liberal families have more children.  Attitudes about children and the future change.  

Demographers in the 1930s were convinced America's population would peak around 1960 at like 140 million people and then begin to fall forever after that.  BOOM.  That small generation born in the 20s and 30s birthed 75 million babies in 20 years and reversed what had been a decline in birth rates that began in the early 19th century.

Then that huge generation became the least child bearing generation in history.

The extremes, for many reasons (many of those debatable), tend to even out.

[The_Doctor]

FWIW, I believe in a Greater Israel, no Palestinian homeland, and I strongly think that it's bad US foreign policy to even recognize one. They're not our friends, and weakening Israel is a horrible mistake. The Embassy should be in Jerusalem, as a sign of our recognition of a united and independent Israel committed to Western and Judaic traditions.

But conventional foreign policy, etc etc.

[DavidB.]

These trends never last.  Certainly not long enough for "economic disaster"... I'd imagine if a Haredi family has 7 kids... a good 2 or 3 probably won't grow up to live that lifestyle.  They'll be moderates and secularists.

It's generally only baalei tshuva (those who weren't raised observant) who have two or more kids who go off the derech, and even that is the exception, not the rule. Kids getting off the derech with "frum from birth" parents isn't too common. It sometimes happens, of course, but certainly not at the rate you describe, and there's no reason to assume it will be different in the future. You also have to remember these kids are trapped in their world. They don't know anything different. Their "skills" are worthless on the job market. And they look down upon the lifestyle of the non-observant. To be clear, as someone who thinks Haredim are painfully wrong theologically and sometimes morally, I am not endorsing any of this. I am just explaining why I expect what I expect.

[Ban my account ffs!]

These trends never last.  Certainly not long enough for "economic disaster"... I'd imagine if a Haredi family has 7 kids... a good 2 or 3 probably won't grow up to live that lifestyle.  They'll be moderates and secularists.

It's generally only baalei tshuva (those who weren't raised observant) who have two or more kids who go off the derech, and even that is the exception, not the rule. Kids getting off the derech with "frum from birth" parents isn't too common. It sometimes happens, of course, but certainly not at the rate you describe, and there's no reason to assume it will be different in the future. You also have to remember these kids are trapped in their world. They don't know anything different. Their "skills" are worthless on the job market. And they look down upon the lifestyle of the non-observant.

I guess the weak point might be that there will be a point where they can no longer be "trapped".  Economic realities will require more interaction with the outside world.  And that will change people (it might make them more protective... it might have the opposite impact).

I just think if these kinds of trends had been going on forever and were unstoppable.. the world would be much different than it is currently.  Israel is going to change.  And I imagine the secular liberal Jews won't be that happy with it... I just don't expect there to be like 50 million Haredi Jews packed into Israel where the men aren't working.

[DavidB.]

Absolutely true, something will change. I just don't think it will impact their demographic growth, but we'll see.

[Badger]

I'm not anti-Israel and I'm vehemently pro-Israel but Trump has long said he wants peace in the Middle East and views himself as a deal broker. Combine this with the Bush GOP policy on Israel and it's pretty standard behavior for any Administration to start out from the premise of a two state solution.

I don't agree but it's not like Trump is surprising anyone. In fact, this is the most normal behavior he's demonstrated in foreign policy since becoming President.

This.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

For the record, Trump does want to negotiate a deal, and settlement construction will have to halt in order for there to be talks, at least temporarily. The difference is that I expect Trump will actually expect to see movement from both sides when negotiating, which will change the balance of these talks significantly.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

So the actual memo that Trump just issued is probably the most pro-settlement policy of any US President ever.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Good, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

[ApatheticAustrian]

For the record, Trump does want to negotiate a deal, and settlement construction will have to halt in order for there to be talks, at least temporarily. The difference is that I expect Trump will actually expect to see movement from both sides when negotiating, which will change the balance of these talks significantly.

and bill clinton and bush didn't want to see movement?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

For the record, Trump does want to negotiate a deal, and settlement construction will have to halt in order for there to be talks, at least temporarily. The difference is that I expect Trump will actually expect to see movement from both sides when negotiating, which will change the balance of these talks significantly.

and bill clinton and bush didn't want to see movement?

I remember when Clinton announced before the start of negotiations that he would hold the Israelis responsible if talks failed.

When only one side is willing to move, it's tempting to ask them to move twice as much.

[ApatheticAustrian]

as far as i am concered, hamas is a bunch of technocratic nazis and their subordinate groups are anarchistic nazis and the FATAH is a group of economically "liberal" and socially arch-conservative cleptocratic desk-sitting ex-terrorists, who are talking like hamas but not walking the walk anymore, cause the leaders know how much they need israel.

so well, i see both sides as screwed,...i just see the israeli side at least powerful and representative enough to cut a deal, while there is a big old power vacuum with the palestinians.