WH stopped State Department Holocaust message that mentioned Jews

[RI]

This is really depressing and I prefer not to think about the implications of all this. Just wanted to say I admire Al's contributions to this thread and that realisticidealist has proven to have very distasteful views.

Whatever dude. The Holocaust was awful for the Jewish people. No doubt about it. I've never said they didn't suffer more than anyone. But the fact that most people don't even acknowledge or know of the other 5 million killed and honor them is quite saddening and disturbing.

There is no scientific basis for "the other 5 million".

Oh for fck's sake. I wouldn't expect a Jewish person of all people to deny the Holocaust.

[DavidB.]

This is really depressing and I prefer not to think about the implications of all this. Just wanted to say I admire Al's contributions to this thread and that realisticidealist has proven to have very distasteful views.

Whatever dude. The Holocaust was awful for the Jewish people. No doubt about it. I've never said they didn't suffer more than anyone. But the fact that most people don't even acknowledge or know of the other 5 million killed and honor them is quite saddening and disturbing.

There is no scientific basis for "the other 5 million".

Oh for fck's sake. I wouldn't expect a Jewish person of all people to deny the Holocaust.

Nice framing, but you're better than this

"MUH 300 TRILLION CATHOLIC PRIESTS WERE TEH REAL VICTIMZZ"
"Actually... not really"
"Why do you deny the Holocaust? "

[ApatheticAustrian]

this is just an academical debate. the dead are dead it doesn ' t diminsh any nazi victim if he / she isn't seen as a holocaust victim.

[DavidB.]

The point is that while we should obviously remember all victims of Nazi actions (including Catholics), the extremely inflated figure of 5 million non-Jewish victims was pulled out of someone's ass and is solely meant to diminish and obfuscate the uniquely anti-Jewish character of the Holocaust. The only exception to this is the Porajmos, but ideally it should be mentioned as a separate (but obviously equally evil) genocide rather than part of the Holocaust. But while priests, disabled people, gay people etc. were absolutely persecuted in some cases and should be honored, there was no genocide taking place against them and they should not be mentioned as part of the Holocaust. Doubling down on the bullsh*t figure of 5 million non-Jewish Holocaust victims and accusing me of Holocaust denial isn't going to make me respond nicely.

[Horus]

The point is that while we should obviously remember all victims of Nazi actions (including Catholics), the extremely inflated figure of 5 million non-Jewish victims was pulled out of someone's ass and is solely meant to diminish and obfuscate the uniquely anti-Jewish character of the Holocaust. The only exception to this is the Porajmos, but ideally it should be mentioned as a separate (but obviously equally evil) genocide rather than part of the Holocaust. But while priests, disabled people, gay people etc. were absolutely persecuted in some cases and should be honored, there was no genocide taking place against them and they should not be mentioned as part of the Holocaust. Doubling down on the bullsh*t figure of 5 million Jewish Holocaust victims and accusing me of Holocaust denial isn't going to make me respond nicely.

It's not denial, but it's definitely revisionism. You're doing a very good job proving that you're not Jewish.

[DavidB.]

It's not denial, but it's definitely revisionism. You're doing a very good job proving that you're not Jewish.

Give me one reason to care about someone on the other side of the world who is known to always take the anti-Jewish position on everything claiming I'm not Jewish?

[afleitch]

This is really depressing and I prefer not to think about the implications of all this. Just wanted to say I admire Al's contributions to this thread and that realisticidealist has proven to have very distasteful views.

Whatever dude. The Holocaust was awful for the Jewish people. No doubt about it. I've never said they didn't suffer more than anyone. But the fact that most people don't even acknowledge or know of the other 5 million killed and honor them is quite saddening and disturbing.

Says the person who mentioned Catholics as unacknowleged victims before he mentioned gays, Romany, the disabled and Communists.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Catholic Priests, among many others, were victimized for their allegiances and beliefs. The only two groups marked for industrialized extermination based on their bloodline were Jews and Roma, with Jews making up a clear majority of total victims. Above all, Hitler was obsessed with "blood purity" and was willing to destroy Germany's scientific prowess if it meant eliminating all the Jews. Any mention of the Holocaust must acknowledge this, or it's ignorant at best and denialist at worst.

[RI]

This is really depressing and I prefer not to think about the implications of all this. Just wanted to say I admire Al's contributions to this thread and that realisticidealist has proven to have very distasteful views.

Whatever dude. The Holocaust was awful for the Jewish people. No doubt about it. I've never said they didn't suffer more than anyone. But the fact that most people don't even acknowledge or know of the other 5 million killed and honor them is quite saddening and disturbing.

Says the person who mentioned Catholics as unacknowleged victims before he mentioned gays, Romany, the disabled and Communists.

More Catholic Poles were killed than any of those groups. They're the second biggest group of civilians killed. That's why I brought them up first. Plenty of the others were killed too, and their deaths are just as worthy of mention, which I later did.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Came back to say that Polish Catholics, including Polish Catholic priests, were not killed for being Catholic; that (even though certain aspersions cast on the papacy specifically are calumnious) there was an extensive history of Catholic complicity in the Holocaust (there was a history of Catholic resistance to it too, but that does not in any way exculpate those who were complicit or mean that the Church as a whole was exactly a profile in courage); and that denying either of these facts does not do you, the Church, or the human race any favors. For crying out loud.

[RI]

Came back to say that Polish Catholics, including Polish Catholic priests, were not killed for being Catholic; that (even though certain aspersions cast on the papacy specifically are calumnious) there was an extensive history of Catholic complicity in the Holocaust (just as there was a history of Catholic resistance to it); and that denying either of these facts does not do you, the Church, or the human race any favors. For crying out loud.

Some were indeed killed for being Catholic, but the vast majority weren't, no. Beyond that, I don't see the relevancy of your comment to what I've said. History is, as always, complicated; I've never denied that the Church had a complicated relationship with the Holocaust with much good and bad done.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

You haven't directly denied it but some of what you have said could be read as decidedly obfuscatory. If you say that that's unintentional then I guess I have no reason to disbelieve you, but I can't really fault David for being more skeptical either.

[RI]

You haven't directly denied it but some of what you have said could be read as decidedly obfuscatory.

That's just how I talk in general.

[publicunofficial]

It's the fact that the original draft contained the word "Jew", and that it was intentionally scrubbed from the final draft, that makes this look bad.

[Kingpoleon]

11 million people died in the Holocaust, at least. We're not special, and the Holocaust tore apart countless families, Jewish and non Jewish. No need to single us out in an attempt to make people subconsciously value the Jewish victims more than the others. I really don't see the issue here.

But if the special mention is removed purposely by a well known anti-semite?  Is that okay?

Is that why Trump's third highest ranking member of his Cabinet, Treasury Secretary Mnuchin, is Jewish? And why the people he listens to the most, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, are both Jewish?

[Sbane]

11 million people died in the Holocaust, at least. We're not special, and the Holocaust tore apart countless families, Jewish and non Jewish. No need to single us out in an attempt to make people subconsciously value the Jewish victims more than the others. I really don't see the issue here.

But if the special mention is removed purposely by a well known anti-semite?  Is that okay?

Is that why Trump's third highest ranking member of his Cabinet, Treasury Secretary Mnuchin, is Jewish? And why the people he listens to the most, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, are both Jewish?

What we are finding out, unfortunately, is that Ivanka and Jared are not the people he listens to the most. He listens most to the two Steves, Steve Bannon and Steve Miller. They both seem to be racist and anti-semite.

[Famous Mortimer]

11 million people died in the Holocaust, at least. We're not special, and the Holocaust tore apart countless families, Jewish and non Jewish. No need to single us out in an attempt to make people subconsciously value the Jewish victims more than the others. I really don't see the issue here.

But if the special mention is removed purposely by a well known anti-semite?  Is that okay?

Is that why Trump's third highest ranking member of his Cabinet, Treasury Secretary Mnuchin, is Jewish? And why the people he listens to the most, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, are both Jewish?

What we are finding out, unfortunately, is that Ivanka and Jared are not the people he listens to the most. He listens most to the two Steves, Steve Bannon and Steve Miller. They both seem to be racist and anti-semite.

Steven Miller is Jewish.

[Devout Centrist]

So we got a guy whining about how Catholic priests are frequently ignore as Holocaust victims and someone arguing that 5 million additional deaths were completely made up.

And:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So not 'made up', but a difference that amounts to semantics. Including Soviet POW's targetted for ethnicity brings the total up significantly too.

[Sbane]

11 million people died in the Holocaust, at least. We're not special, and the Holocaust tore apart countless families, Jewish and non Jewish. No need to single us out in an attempt to make people subconsciously value the Jewish victims more than the others. I really don't see the issue here.

But if the special mention is removed purposely by a well known anti-semite?  Is that okay?

Is that why Trump's third highest ranking member of his Cabinet, Treasury Secretary Mnuchin, is Jewish? And why the people he listens to the most, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, are both Jewish?

What we are finding out, unfortunately, is that Ivanka and Jared are not the people he listens to the most. He listens most to the two Steves, Steve Bannon and Steve Miller. They both seem to be racist and anti-semite.

Steven Miller is Jewish.

Oh great, turns out they are just racist. Makes it a lot better, doesn't it?

[DavidB.]

11 million people died in the Holocaust, at least. We're not special, and the Holocaust tore apart countless families, Jewish and non Jewish. No need to single us out in an attempt to make people subconsciously value the Jewish victims more than the others. I really don't see the issue here.

But if the special mention is removed purposely by a well known anti-semite?  Is that okay?

Is that why Trump's third highest ranking member of his Cabinet, Treasury Secretary Mnuchin, is Jewish? And why the people he listens to the most, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, are both Jewish?

What we are finding out, unfortunately, is that Ivanka and Jared are not the people he listens to the most. He listens most to the two Steves, Steve Bannon and Steve Miller. They both seem to be racist and anti-semite.

Steven Miller is Jewish.

Oh great, turns out they are just racist. Makes it a lot better, doesn't it?

Your claim was that Stephen Miller is antisemitic. That's just not true.