French Presidential Election 22 April 2007 Thread

[Michael Z]

It seems like so far neither Sarkozy and Royal have exactly set the election alight (though Sarkozy seems to be very comparable to Thatcher or GW Bush in that people either love or hate him). I still think Sarkozy will win, but he's going to be a heck of a polarising President and will probably do France more harm than good in the long run.

Of course, you also think Thatcher did more harm than good.

Of course she bloody did! Unless you're, perhaps, a buy-to-let landlord or a hedgefund manager, then yeah, I suppose she was bloody brilliant. But not if you're actually a normal person with an average income. And I'm not just talking about wealth or material gains here, since I happen to believe that some things are more important than money -- which is downright freaky, I know, but true.

But actually, Thatcher is quite an apt person to mention here to further illustrate my point about Sarkozy. I don't actually mean their similarities in policies (which I wasn't talking about to begin with), I meant more their style of politics. I don't actually care all that much what Sarkozy stands for. If he wants to privatise the sh!t out of France, then fine, let him. What gets me is this whole partisan & deliberately polarising attidude, this "get screwed" bullyboy mentality towards anyone who may not agree with your policies, so espoused by the likes of Thatcher, Bush and Sarkozy, which does little but divide people and turn them against each other and which, quite frankly, belongs into the dustbin of history.

[Bono]

It seems like so far neither Sarkozy and Royal have exactly set the election alight (though Sarkozy seems to be very comparable to Thatcher or GW Bush in that people either love or hate him). I still think Sarkozy will win, but he's going to be a heck of a polarising President and will probably do France more harm than good in the long run.

Of course, you also think Thatcher did more harm than good.

Of course she bloody did! Unless you're, perhaps, a buy-to-let landlord or a hedgefund manager, then yeah, I suppose she was bloody brilliant. But not if you're actually a normal person with an average income. And I'm not just talking about wealth or material gains here, since I happen to believe that some things are more important than money -- which is downright freaky, I know, but true.

But actually, Thatcher is quite an apt person to mention here to further illustrate my point about Sarkozy. I don't actually mean their similarities in policies (which I wasn't talking about to begin with), I meant more their style of politics. I don't actually care all that much what Sarkozy stands for. If he wants to privatise the sh!t out of France, then fine, let him. What gets me is this whole partisan & deliberately polarising attidude, this "get screwed" bullyboy mentality towards anyone who may not agree with your policies, so espoused by the likes of Thatcher, Bush and Sarkozy, which does little but divide people and turn them against each other and which, quite frankly, belongs into the dustbin of history.

The mentality you speak of is only a result of the constant bullying of the right by the left. According to pseudo-intellectual leftists, people on the right can never be clever, are constantly belittled and pushed aside, care only for their personal interests and those of the wealthy, etc. No wonder there eventually comes a reaction from the right against people who think they own the truth.

[Tender Branson]

Latest CSA poll:

[Keystone Phil]

The Sarkozy-Royal runoff seems way too close yet I get the feeling that many here think Royal definetley won't win.

[Verily]

It seems like so far neither Sarkozy and Royal have exactly set the election alight (though Sarkozy seems to be very comparable to Thatcher or GW Bush in that people either love or hate him). I still think Sarkozy will win, but he's going to be a heck of a polarising President and will probably do France more harm than good in the long run.

Of course, you also think Thatcher did more harm than good.

Of course she bloody did! Unless you're, perhaps, a buy-to-let landlord or a hedgefund manager, then yeah, I suppose she was bloody brilliant. But not if you're actually a normal person with an average income. And I'm not just talking about wealth or material gains here, since I happen to believe that some things are more important than money -- which is downright freaky, I know, but true.

But actually, Thatcher is quite an apt person to mention here to further illustrate my point about Sarkozy. I don't actually mean their similarities in policies (which I wasn't talking about to begin with), I meant more their style of politics. I don't actually care all that much what Sarkozy stands for. If he wants to privatise the sh!t out of France, then fine, let him. What gets me is this whole partisan & deliberately polarising attidude, this "get screwed" bullyboy mentality towards anyone who may not agree with your policies, so espoused by the likes of Thatcher, Bush and Sarkozy, which does little but divide people and turn them against each other and which, quite frankly, belongs into the dustbin of history.

The mentality you speak of is only a result of the constant bullying of the right by the left. According to pseudo-intellectual leftists, people on the right can never be clever, are constantly belittled and pushed aside, care only for their personal interests and those of the wealthy, etc. No wonder there eventually comes a reaction from the right against people who think they own the truth.

"Let's attack the people making the argument instead of arguing against it!"

[Michael Z]

It seems like so far neither Sarkozy and Royal have exactly set the election alight (though Sarkozy seems to be very comparable to Thatcher or GW Bush in that people either love or hate him). I still think Sarkozy will win, but he's going to be a heck of a polarising President and will probably do France more harm than good in the long run.

Of course, you also think Thatcher did more harm than good.

Of course she bloody did! Unless you're, perhaps, a buy-to-let landlord or a hedgefund manager, then yeah, I suppose she was bloody brilliant. But not if you're actually a normal person with an average income. And I'm not just talking about wealth or material gains here, since I happen to believe that some things are more important than money -- which is downright freaky, I know, but true.

But actually, Thatcher is quite an apt person to mention here to further illustrate my point about Sarkozy. I don't actually mean their similarities in policies (which I wasn't talking about to begin with), I meant more their style of politics. I don't actually care all that much what Sarkozy stands for. If he wants to privatise the sh!t out of France, then fine, let him. What gets me is this whole partisan & deliberately polarising attidude, this "get screwed" bullyboy mentality towards anyone who may not agree with your policies, so espoused by the likes of Thatcher, Bush and Sarkozy, which does little but divide people and turn them against each other and which, quite frankly, belongs into the dustbin of history.

The mentality you speak of is only a result of the constant bullying of the right by the left. According to pseudo-intellectual leftists, people on the right can never be clever, are constantly belittled and pushed aside, care only for their personal interests and those of the wealthy, etc. No wonder there eventually comes a reaction from the right against people who think they own the truth.

Bono, I could just as easily swap the words "right" and "left" and substitute "wealthy" for "poor" here. Either way, two wrongs don't make a right.

[afleitch]

Margaret Thatcher has been the victim of a partially self afflicted character assasination. She is the bogey-woman who symbolises what was wrong with the 80's and is rarely credited, or is credited grudgingly for what went right. Margaret Thatcher did help the aspirational working class; assisted places schemes and the right to buy scheme is monumental for example. She encouraged a long term strategy for the rebuilding and reshaping of a modern, and now succesful British economy and it is quite right for people such as Gordon Brown and Tony Blair to credit her (more so in speeches and in interviews than David Cameron has ever done) She was no saint, but neither was she the villain that was made out to be for political gain.

Privately Thatcher was no doubt well prepared for this portrayal; it had been created  long before she was PM and before she was leader. She voted in favour of the decriminalisation of homosexuality and in favour of David Steels abortion bill. In voting in favour of both she was in the minority in the Conservative Party. While she was Education Secretary she helped save the Open University from those in her own party who wished for it to be wound down, because she believed in aspiration and she saw the benefits of wide scale, accessable and free further education.

She was accused of being 'The milk snatcher' something that she has never shaken off and I think that for all her faults, and for all my personal disagreements with policy and style on this she has be defended.

Disregarding the fact that the previous Labour government had abolished free school milk for those in secondary eduction, and disregarding the fact that the abolition of free school milk in primary schools was already being openly tabled by the civil service when she became Education Secretary, Margaret Thatcher opposed the abolition of free school milk, and pressurised the Cabinet into dropping their proposals. She failed to win them over and in the tradition of collective cabinet responsibility she voted with her colleagues. She was only partially vindicated when her concerns and positions were finally published under the thirty year rule. Yet even today she is still the 'milk snatcher', and she's still alot of things. Some true, and some false and unjust.

It's time for politicians who owe their career to her downfall and who resort to the 'myth of Thatcher' to excuse or to deflect from their own failings in government and outside, to move on and to leave her alone.

[SPQR]

Latest CSA poll:

That doesn't look too bad,there is still hope that Sarkozy might lose...
And,anyway,the fact that someone like Le Pen gets 15% and more only confirms my opinion on France...

[Cubby]

Margaret Thatcher..... is the bogey-woman

You got that right

She voted in favour of the decriminalisation of homosexuality.....

When, in 1967? How kind of her. The Wolfenden Report recomended decriminalizing it in 1957, but Parliament did nothing about it for 10 years because of public opposition.This is my problem with British Government, if you leave everything to the legislative branch (i.e. Parliament in this case) then only popular things get passed. Our Supreme Court can make laws that aren't popular, but are the right thing to do. (Usually).

Margaret Thatcher was an awful Prime Minister. Section 28, trying to ban Heather Had 2 Mommies. She was a mean, vindictave person whose homophobia came from nowhere, she wasn't very religious, so she just did things like that out of spite. I have a hard time believing Southern England (The Tory Hearland) is a bastion of Christian homophobia. I'm not saying Neil Kinnock was good, but Thatcher and Reagan were terrible. They're only popular today because communism was already collapsing at the time but they get credit for its defeat.

Sorry about that detour. The poll on this page is great news, Royal is only behind by 2 points!! Thats an improvement, although this seems to be a different poll than the ones we've been seeing on here. Bayrou isn't doing to well, which is bad. He's a much better option than the Demagogue Sarkozy.

[StateBoiler]

Latest CSA poll:

That doesn't look too bad,there is still hope that Sarkozy might lose...
And,anyway,the fact that someone like Le Pen gets 15% and more only confirms my opinion on France...

Give your country 5-10 years and the British National Party will win seats in Parliament.

[SPQR]

Latest CSA poll:

That doesn't look too bad,there is still hope that Sarkozy might lose...
And,anyway,the fact that someone like Le Pen gets 15% and more only confirms my opinion on France...

Give your country 5-10 years and the British National Party will win seats in Parliament.

I live in England but I am Italian,and thankfully the fascists don't win seat in our parliament.We got the Lega Nord,but it's losing a lot of its appeal.And there is no way someone like Le Pen would get 15% in Italy.

[Hash]

But, dpes Italy have the same immigration/integration problems that France has? Like the 2005 riots?

[SPQR]

But, dpes Italy have the same immigration/integration problems that France has? Like the 2005 riots?

We got plenty of illegal immigrants every year,but the most important "racist party" only gets 5% and will get less and less in the next elections.

[minionofmidas]

But, dpes Italy have the same immigration/integration problems that France has? Like the 2005 riots?

We got plenty of illegal immigrants every year,

Comparatively few legal ones though (although things have changed from ten, twenty years ago when I was in Italy fairly frequently, I suppose)

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What about AN and FI? Not quite the same as FN of course, but perhaps part of the story why there is no FN equivalent (the Lega isn't one either)?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What is the Alleanza Nazionale (12% of the vote last election) if it's not Fascist? Sure, not as bad as Le Pen and Co., but still...

[SPQR]

What is the Alleanza Nazionale (12% of the vote last election) if it's not Fascist? Sure, not as bad as Le Pen and Co., but still...

Fini,Alleanza Nazionale's leader,is as fascist as Sarkozy or Bush might be...
Lewis Trondheim,FI and AN's views are not NEARLY as extremist as Le Pen's or as Lega Nord's.

[minionofmidas]

What is the Alleanza Nazionale (12% of the vote last election) if it's not Fascist? Sure, not as bad as Le Pen and Co., but still...

Fini,Alleanza Nazionale's leader,is as fascist as Sarkozy or Bush might be...

Bush? That's not exactly comforting.

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Yes... it's not just issue positions I'm thinking of, but, you know, a party's general style. I've always felt that those critizicing Berlusconi only for his involvement with the silly posturings of the Lega and the Fascist heritage of the AN (and the AN is NOT exactly what the MSI used to be. They wouldn't be as successful as they are otherwise.) were missing the point. The whole way FI is set up, the whole core persona of Berlusconi himself... that guy should not have a place in something as supposedly mainstream and MOR as the European People's Party.

[Umengus]

9 days before the first turn and false (or not) rumors begin to fly in the political sky. The last in date would be a poll realized by "les renseignements généraux" (secret services who have the mission to informe government on the state of france. In politics too.) who would give Sarkozy first and Bayrou and le Pen fighting for the second place. royal out.

This info is given by the nouvel obs, a newpaper who supports royal.

[SPQR]

What is the Alleanza Nazionale (12% of the vote last election) if it's not Fascist? Sure, not as bad as Le Pen and Co., but still...

Fini,Alleanza Nazionale's leader,is as fascist as Sarkozy or Bush might be...

Bush? That's not exactly comforting.

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Yes... it's not just issue positions I'm thinking of, but, you know, a party's general style. I've always felt that those critizicing Berlusconi only for his involvement with the silly posturings of the Lega and the Fascist heritage of the AN (and the AN is NOT exactly what the MSI used to be. They wouldn't be as successful as they are otherwise.) were missing the point. The whole way FI is set up, the whole core persona of Berlusconi himself... that guy should not have a place in something as supposedly mainstream and MOR as the European People's Party.

Bush is an idiot,not a fascist.
And I absolutely agree about what you say on Berlusconi,Forza Italia might well be called "Forza Berlusconi" as it's gonna collapse as soon as the "evil midget",as it's called in Italy,is gonna retire.

[Sam Spade]

There is something quite ironic about Italians referring to their country having nothing to do with Fascists (nowadays of course).  Just slightly amused.

[SPQR]

9 days before the first turn and false (or not) rumors begin to fly in the political sky. The last in date would be a poll realized by "les renseignements généraux" (secret services who have the mission to informe government on the state of france. In politics too.) who would give Sarkozy first and Bayrou and le Pen fighting for the second place. royal out.

This info is given by the nouvel obs, a newpaper who supports royal.

I hope it's done so to rally socialists to go and vote Royal...i could never stand a Sarkozy-Le Pen runoff.

[minionofmidas]

What is the Alleanza Nazionale (12% of the vote last election) if it's not Fascist? Sure, not as bad as Le Pen and Co., but still...

Fini,Alleanza Nazionale's leader,is as fascist as Sarkozy or Bush might be...

Bush? That's not exactly comforting.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes... it's not just issue positions I'm thinking of, but, you know, a party's general style. I've always felt that those critizicing Berlusconi only for his involvement with the silly posturings of the Lega and the Fascist heritage of the AN (and the AN is NOT exactly what the MSI used to be. They wouldn't be as successful as they are otherwise.) were missing the point. The whole way FI is set up, the whole core persona of Berlusconi himself... that guy should not have a place in something as supposedly mainstream and MOR as the European People's Party.

Bush is an idiot,not a fascist.

Not so quick here.
He certainly is an idiot though - bumbling fool is more like it, actually - which may actually be a reason for relief.

[SPQR]

There is something quite ironic about Italians referring to their country having nothing to do with Fascists (nowadays of course).  Just slightly amused.

Unfortunately our country still does have fascists,but nothing compared to the 15% and more Le Pen gets.

[minionofmidas]

What is the Alleanza Nazionale (12% of the vote last election) if it's not Fascist? Sure, not as bad as Le Pen and Co., but still...

Fini,Alleanza Nazionale's leader,is as fascist as Sarkozy or Bush might be...

Bush? That's not exactly comforting.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes... it's not just issue positions I'm thinking of, but, you know, a party's general style. I've always felt that those critizicing Berlusconi only for his involvement with the silly posturings of the Lega and the Fascist heritage of the AN (and the AN is NOT exactly what the MSI used to be. They wouldn't be as successful as they are otherwise.) were missing the point. The whole way FI is set up, the whole core persona of Berlusconi himself... that guy should not have a place in something as supposedly mainstream and MOR as the European People's Party.

Bush is an idiot,not a fascist.

Not so quick here.
He certainly is an idiot though - bumbling fool is more like it, actually - which may actually be a reason for relief.

Actually, I take that back. Bush is indeed an idiot, not a fascist.

Now, the people he relies most on... the jury's still out on that.

[StateBoiler]

What is the Alleanza Nazionale (12% of the vote last election) if it's not Fascist? Sure, not as bad as Le Pen and Co., but still...

Fini,Alleanza Nazionale's leader,is as fascist as Sarkozy or Bush might be...
Lewis Trondheim,FI and AN's views are not NEARLY as extremist as Le Pen's or as Lega Nord's.

I think Italy's problem is more their youths base on what I see in some soccer games. Watched a tape of Catania-Palermo...dear God it was like watching a civil war in a third-world country.

And then I had a debate with a Reggina fan that told me it was all instigated by the police and organized by Berlusconi and the police deserved what they got. I take it he was an ultra communist or something, but he definitely, and not in the joking sense, wanted to take a gun and go shoot people in Rome when they banned all games. Then there's the more knowledgeable (and less radical) Italian soccer fans say that's typical of all youths in Italy, they're either hard-left or hard-right with little in between due to the country's malaise, complete lack of leadership and responsibility from anyone in the country (with Berlusconi and Prodi both taking the blame according to them), alongside increasing unemployment. Good thread: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=474214

After hearing a bunch of Italians talk about Italy (they live there, not New Jersey descendants), and taking into account the whole mafia situation in the South, I'm not so sure if Italy is still a first-world country to be honest. That, and the descriptions from my dad when he had to go to Naples for a couple weeks in spring 2003 before he had to go to Iraq. Naples he said was an absolute dump. I told him over the phone Naples is pretty much the Detroit of Europe.

To be fair, after he got out of Iraq he went to a military base in Sicily, which he absolutely loved (he's from Indiana, and Sicily reminded him a lot of Indiana).