Tory Right Rallies Around Faith...

[Storebought]

From the Sunday Times

Frankly, I applaud all the 40 small-c conservatives left in the UK. I despise the political correctness and such makes that sort of public expression of patriotism and tradition uncouth.

That said, those conservatives are quite mistaken if they think the Tory Party will in any way endorse their beliefs. Not because the Tories have all of a sudden become "liberal" (they were "liberal" since the days of Baldwin and Chamberlain), but because of the Tories' incapacity to wage electoral war. It's like they need Blair to hand them this week's talking points, if only so the Tories can argue the opposite. Pretty damned mindless, that is.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Unfortunately, the current leadership of the 'Conservative' party in the UK is anything BUT conservative.

If Blair has something good to say about God, the tory 'leadership' would denounce him and have a good word to say for the devil.

Since Blair has worked well with Americans, the tory 'leadership' is stupidly anti-American.

Real conservatives oppose collectivism, while the only objective of the present tory 'leadership' is to make sure they 'rule.'

The the tory 'leadership' is berefit of of ethics and brains. 

Perhaps some real conservatives will drive the slimebags who currently run the 'Conservative' party from power, but at this time, I wouldn't hold out much hope.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

They won't get very far trying to get religious voters; most of us are in Labour's back pocket and have been for a while.







It suddenly occurs to me that seeing as this is the Tory party we're talking about, they're talking about traditionalist Anglicans. Not that many of those are especially religious in a conventional sense... and if the Tories are worried about winning them back they're in deeper sh*t than I'd ever assumed...

[Storebought]

It suddenly occurs to me that seeing as this is the Tory party we're talking about, they're talking about traditionalist Anglicans. Not that many of those are especially religious in a conventional sense... and if the Tories are worried about winning them back they're in deeper sh*t than I'd ever assumed...

It is noteworthy that, among the practicing Anglicans left, they are a great deal more conservative, in the American sense, than their vicars and bishops.

But, yes: Practicing Muslims outnumber Anglicans now.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It is noteworthy that, among the practicing Anglicans left, they are a great deal more conservative, in the American sense, than their vicars and bishops.

True

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IIRC the CofE is either third or fourth in terms of attendence nowadays (depends whether you treat the Free Churches as a block or not) and that while overall Church Attendence isn't greatly different to the most of the 18th Century for the CofE it's much, much worse.

Not that that means a great deal as the social pressure of going to church has collapsed... but oddly enough most of the country is still religious:

[Peter]

If those nuts take over the Tory party we can all repeat a choice quote of Gerald Kaufman after the next election.

The list of MPs involved in this is no surprise, fortunately, they've got little to no support for their social conservatism authoritarianism in the fresh intake.

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I want to focus on this, because the rest of it whilst amusing, is just the usual assinine crap that I've come to expect from that lot.

There's nothing wrong with tax cuts in my opinion, and in the longer term, I could live with a cut in GDP spending, as long as we spend money in the areas that the State should be providing spending such as education. What we can't do is simply put a government into office who literally just pulls five points off the basic rate of income tax and because of their ignorance of fiscal responsibility in the process cause a recession.

Voucher system for schools are just the beginnings of privatisation of a sector that should remain firmly in public hands.

I have long thought about tax relief for private healthcare and I must admit I think it is a good idea. I have no idea how it would work in terms of financing the damned thing, but I would support it.

"[P]atriotic approach to Europe" - I assume this means something along the lines of telling Europe to  itself everytime it considers doing something slightly damaging to our own good, and in the interests of the greater good. Thats not patriotism, thats just being selfish. Ultimately the best approach to Europe is one of pragmatism and realising that you have to give a little to get a little in negotiations.

Supremacy of Parliament is just code for attacking the Human Rights Act. Personally I consider it a fundamental liberty to have some privacy, and if they don't like the fact that they can't ban me from doing god knows what, thats tough.

Listening to their moral values is not something I particuarly enjoy doing. The moral value of being able to live your life as you choose as long as you don't harm others (a la Locke) is one they would do well to learn.

The institution of marriage is important to bringing up children, but its important to realise that in today's society that sometimes isn't possible because of various things often outside one parents control - that doesn't make them less of a parent, and the coded beration of dedicated single parents offends me.

[Dave from Michigan]

Are the tories going to win an national election anytime soon, it would be interesting  if you guys had a really close election that came down to a few seats.  the last 3 elections have not really been close 2 were landslides if I'm not mistaken  (97-01). Hopefully the tories will make a comeback and win in 2009 although they would need a pickup of like a 130 seats which seems unlikely.

[AuH2O]

The Tories are a lost cause.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If this keeps up, then in a couple of decades Labour will be the right wing party, the LibDems the left-wing party and the Tories will be struggling to keep from losing status as an parlimentary party.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If this keeps up, then in a couple of decades Labour will be the right wing party, the LibDems the left-wing party and the Tories will be struggling to keep from losing status as an parlimentary party.

If social/wedge issues become a larger factor over here that's certainly possible.
I've made this point before, but it's interesting to note that the marginals Labour did best in were generally fairly to very socially conservative and with more religious populations.
Labour did appalling in marginals with largely white collar, socially liberal and more secular populations.
There were a few exceptions, but the generally pattern seems pretty clear.
There was a report a while ago (by Sheffield Uni IIRC) that divided the country into two nations (a familer theme from the '80's although the boundary was slightly different) and it made the point that the "London" area (basically southern england) was "liberal" but largely Conservative voting, while the rest of the country was "conservative" but largely Labour voting. They were overgeneralising quite a bit IMO (East London isn't exactly "liberal" while the South Manchester suburbs aren't exactly socially conservative) but the overall point is pretty sound.
Next few years are probably very important in deciding the political landscape for the next few decades; Labour seem likely to head in an increasingly populist direction (something that's always been possible since the Littleborough & Saddleworth by-election IMO), but exactly what the Tories or LibDems choose to do is kind of uncertain. Both parties seem to be having a lot of internal fighting right now...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If those nuts take over the Tory party we can all repeat a choice quote of Gerald Kaufman after the next election.

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It could result in health spending rising by something like a third (I'd say that's the highest probable figure, but the one that'd be used by parties opposed to the idea) Either that or a big drop in the quality of services provided to ordinary patients.
Electorally it's a suicidal policy as most of the electorate do not like the private sector being involved in the health service as much as it is already and no one likes paying more taxes or getting worse services. It'd be a bit of a wet dream for Labour strategists actually; "The Tories want to privatise the NHS and put your taxes up!"

[Democratic Hawk]

Well, the Church of England is no longer the Tory Party at Prayer

The Tories can try to rally the around "faith, flag and family" if they wish - but I don't think it would wash with the intellectually astute. I haven't forgetton Thatcherite economic policies (and the desired goal of high unemployment) and the impact they had on families and wider society

Many Christians, like myself, have a profound social conscience and I'm not yet sure whether the Conservative Party has regained theirs. In light of the past, they are in no position to take any moral high ground

Dave

[Rural Radical]

They won't get very far trying to get religious voters; most of us are in Labour's back pocket and have been for a while.

It suddenly occurs to me that seeing as this is the Tory party we're talking about, they're talking about traditionalist Anglicans. Not that many of those are especially religious in a conventional sense... and if the Tories are worried about winning them back they're in deeper sh*t than I'd ever assumed...

If the Tories do go down this route it may yet make Shropshire North a Toss up

[Taking post out of quote - PB]

[Rural Radical]

Its nice to see Owen Paterson is in that list of Tory MPs

[Storebought]

Well, the Church of England is no longer the Tory Party at Prayer

The Tories can try to rally the around "faith, flag and family" if they wish - but I don't think it would wash with the intellectually astute. I haven't forgetton Thatcherite economic policies (and the desired goal of high unemployment) and the impact they had on families and wider society

Many Christians, like myself, have a profound social conscience and I'm not yet sure whether the Conservative Party has regained theirs. In light of the past, they are in no position to take any moral high ground

Dave

But both France and Germany, countries which pride themselves on their "social conscience", have higher levels of unemployment even without undergoing Thatcherite economic reform.

[minionofmidas]

Well, the Church of England is no longer the Tory Party at Prayer

The Tories can try to rally the around "faith, flag and family" if they wish - but I don't think it would wash with the intellectually astute. I haven't forgetton Thatcherite economic policies (and the desired goal of high unemployment) and the impact they had on families and wider society

Many Christians, like myself, have a profound social conscience and I'm not yet sure whether the Conservative Party has regained theirs. In light of the past, they are in no position to take any moral high ground

Dave

But both France and Germany, countries which pride themselves on their "social conscience", have higher levels of unemployment even without undergoing Thatcherite economic reform.

Short-term desired result, to combat inflation.

[Erc]

Well, the Church of England is no longer the Tory Party at Prayer

The Tories can try to rally the around "faith, flag and family" if they wish - but I don't think it would wash with the intellectually astute. I haven't forgetton Thatcherite economic policies (and the desired goal of high unemployment) and the impact they had on families and wider society

Many Christians, like myself, have a profound social conscience and I'm not yet sure whether the Conservative Party has regained theirs. In light of the past, they are in no position to take any moral high ground

Dave

But both France and Germany, countries which pride themselves on their "social conscience", have higher levels of unemployment even without undergoing Thatcherite economic reform.

Short-term desired result, to combat inflation.

Well, I'm not really up on British economic history, but such policies worked wonders here in the U.S. in the '80s.

We had horrid inflation in the 70's, a recession deliberately caused by Reagan and Volcker in '81, and no inflation and a good economy (on the whole) thereafter.

When you're stuck in a rut of high inflation, there's no other way to get it down other than causing a recession--and between eternal high inflation and a one-two year recession, I'd pick the recession any day.

I take it, however, that Thatcher and the Bank did not do as good a job as Reagan and Volcker did.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well... the basic problem with run-away inflation (caused by the late Ted Heath) was pretty much solved by 1979. The Callaghan government was brought down by a wave of public sector strikes (thanks guys ) not the overall economic situation.

The mass unemployment of the early '80's (the first time it had been seen since the '30's) was a deliberate policy though; the idea was to collapse the manufacturing industries, cause a collapse in Union membership (as high as 50% in the late '70's) and thus a collapse in funding for the Labour Party (over 2/3rds of it's money comes from Unions. Was an even higher % back then) and support too; unemployed people are much, much, much more likely to vote that someone with a stable job.
And all within a few years. Worked too.
If you draw a line from the mouth of the River Severn to the Wash you get roughly the same amount of people on either side. The northern half has yet to recover from the '80's and won't for a very long time.

[Democratic Hawk]

Well, the Church of England is no longer the Tory Party at Prayer

The Tories can try to rally the around "faith, flag and family" if they wish - but I don't think it would wash with the intellectually astute. I haven't forgetton Thatcherite economic policies (and the desired goal of high unemployment) and the impact they had on families and wider society

Many Christians, like myself, have a profound social conscience and I'm not yet sure whether the Conservative Party has regained theirs. In light of the past, they are in no position to take any moral high ground

Dave

But both France and Germany, countries which pride themselves on their "social conscience", have higher levels of unemployment even without undergoing Thatcherite economic reform.

Short-term desired result, to combat inflation.

Which is why the alchemy of today (low inflation, low unemployment) is better than the hotch-potch of the 80s

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Well... the basic problem with run-away inflation (caused by the late Ted Heath) was pretty much solved by 1979. The Callaghan government was brought down by a wave of public sector strikes (thanks guys ) not the overall economic situation.

The mass unemployment of the early '80's (the first time it had been seen since the '30's) was a deliberate policy though; the idea was to collapse the manufacturing industries, cause a collapse in Union membership (as high as 50% in the late '70's) and thus a collapse in funding for the Labour Party (over 2/3rds of it's money comes from Unions. Was an even higher % back then) and support too; unemployed people are much, much, much more likely to vote that someone with a stable job.
And all within a few years. Worked too.
If you draw a line from the mouth of the River Severn to the Wash you get roughly the same amount of people on either side. The northern half has yet to recover from the '80's and won't for a very long time.

Exactly as you call it Al.

As far as I'm concerned, Thatcher's agenda was  a deliberate act of vindictiveness. She's going to see Auld Nick, when she passes away that one. That said, he'll be wanting rid of her within 24 hours of arrival because she'd have closed down half his blast furnaces

Dave