Previously unreported Kavanaugh accuser comes forward with new allegations

[Badger]

Anyway, Sanchez (of all people) said it best when he said it about Ralph Northam a few months back: Kavanaugh is a bona fide weirdo, regardless of whether he's a rapist or not.

And on Atlas forum we should be supporting our fellow weirdos.

I was compelled to hit the recommend button on both of these posts.

[T'Chenka]

Kavanaugh is on the court, so I'm not sure why conservatives simply aren't satisfied with that and are so anxious to shove him down everyone's throat. There is no constitutional right to be liked and due process does not mean "YOU HAVE TO LIKE HIM OR YOU'RE VIOLATING THE LAW!". He can't have his cake and eat it too.

I'm confused... even as a conservative, I've never heard anyone tell anyone else to "like" Kavanaugh, let alone say that disliking him is against the law. Are you well?

We aren't told to like him or praise him, but we are attacked for disliking or criticizing him. Almost the same thing.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Kavanaugh is on the court, so I'm not sure why conservatives simply aren't satisfied with that and are so anxious to shove him down everyone's throat. There is no constitutional right to be liked and due process does not mean "YOU HAVE TO LIKE HIM OR YOU'RE VIOLATING THE LAW!". He can't have his cake and eat it too.

I'm confused... even as a conservative, I've never heard anyone tell anyone else to "like" Kavanaugh, let alone say that disliking him is against the law. Are you well?

We aren't told to like him or praise him, but we are attacked for disliking or criticizing him. Almost the same thing.

With Kavanaugh, it very much is the issue of acting on him based on unproven accusations that don't even meet the standard of Probable Cause.  It also goes to the issue of why our culture needs to be a culture where prompt reporting of sexual assault is routine, is not condemned by others, but where decades old accusations are looked upon with rightful skepticism, especially when they occur in the sort of political context as Kavanaugh's. 

What people don't like is the perception that he is being persecuted personally (and with a rather flimsy basis for doing so).  A Society in which a mere accusation should empower the ruination of a life without the requisite proof is not a Free Society by any definition.

I don't particularly like Kavanaugh, and I wouldn't be shocked if he did what he did, but we ought to be a Society that functions on principle, and the principle of guilt having to be proven is a reasonable principle that ought to be adhered to. 

[emailking]

With Kavanaugh, it very much is the issue of acting on him based on unproven accusations that don't even meet the standard of Probable Cause.

An accusation was made. That's probable cause.

I don't particularly like Kavanaugh, and I wouldn't be shocked if he did what he did, but we ought to be a Society that functions on principle, and the principle of guilt having to be proven is a reasonable principle that ought to be adhered to.  

For taking away his freedom, yes.

[Slander and/or Libel]

1) He blatantly lied in his hearing. He was asked about the "Renate Alumni" entries in the yearbook, which anybody with a pulse knew was about slut shaming, and he claimed with a straight face it was just because he and his buddies thought she was a nice girl. Not even the blue avatar brigade can credibly deny that this was a blatant lie.

2) His finances were never adequately looked into, and they're shady as hell. This isn't just "throw something at the wall and see what sticks," it's some genuinely shady behavior that never got the airing it deserved because more salacious accusations took up all the bandwidth.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Once again, conservatives and Republicans demonstrate themselves in this thread to be horrible and shameless apologists for sexual assault so long as it increases their political power.

It’s not being an apologist if you believe someone is not guilty .

The highlighted sentence begs for recognition.

I have had my doubts about Kavanaugh.  I am not convinced that Blasey Ford is lying.  I base that on the content of her therapists notes that have come out.  I am not convinced that Blasey Ford isn't so screwed up, mentally, as to have skewed memories.  But I'm certainly convinced that Blasey Ford has been traumatized somehow.  When one's own father repudiates you to the national media, that's an indication of a tortured soul.

That we might not want to elevate Kavanaugh to the High Court in light of Blasey Ford's testimony is understandable.  He doesn't have a right to be there, and I don't find Kavanaugh to be this admirable figure; he's the kind of privileged drunken frat boy who often ends up in situations as Blasey Ford describes (which, of course, is not evidence of Kavanaugh's guilt).  And while I welcome the fact that Kavanaugh doesn't have one of these Intersectional world views, I find the Frat Boy world view to be the crappy other end of that spectrum.  So I would have not voted to confirm Kavanaugh, all things considered.

But I'm not going to treat him as a rapist, either.  The allegation is decades old.  There was no going to the police.  There is no probable cause; there is only Blasey Ford's accusation, and some therapeutic notes as a "sort of" corroboration.  Sexual assault is a problem in our society, but Guilt By Accusation is not the solution to that problem; it's the creation of an even greater wrong. 

[ProudModerate2]

But I'm not going to treat him as a rapist, either.  The allegation is decades old.  There was no going to the police.

"There was no going to police."
Do you know how many sexual assaults (or attempts to sexually assault another individual) go unreported "to police" in our nation/world? Why even point this out, unless you are just being a douche about it.

[Mr. Reactionary]

But I'm not going to treat him as a rapist, either.  The allegation is decades old.  There was no going to the police.

"There was no going to police."
Do you know how many sexual assaults (or attempts to sexually assault another individual) go unreported "to police" in our nation/world? Why even point this out, unless you are just being a douche about it.

Probably because its at least contemporaneous evidence. Even the liar in the Duke lacrosse case went to the police.

[Hermit For Peace]

But I'm not going to treat him as a rapist, either.  The allegation is decades old.  There was no going to the police.

"There was no going to police."
Do you know how many sexual assaults (or attempts to sexually assault another individual) go unreported "to police" in our nation/world? Why even point this out, unless you are just being a douche about it.

Probably because its at least contemporaneous evidence. Even the liar in the Duke lacrosse case went to the police.

You people need to put yourselves in the shoes of the female in these situations. Many of them don't go to the police because they end up being victimized, not believed, reputations ruined, and more.
What Blasey Ford went through after she testified was horrendous. She had to move four times because of death threats. Even the President of our country belittled her.

Who in their right mind wants to subject themselves to this type of treatment? You say she "should have gone to the police" but would you?

[Mr. Reactionary]

But I'm not going to treat him as a rapist, either.  The allegation is decades old.  There was no going to the police.

"There was no going to police."
Do you know how many sexual assaults (or attempts to sexually assault another individual) go unreported "to police" in our nation/world? Why even point this out, unless you are just being a douche about it.

Probably because its at least contemporaneous evidence. Even the liar in the Duke lacrosse case went to the police.

You people need to put yourselves in the shoes of the female in these situations. Many of them don't go to the police because they end up being victimized, not believed, reputations ruined, and more.
What Blasey Ford went through after she testified was horrendous. She had to move four times because of death threats. Even the President of our country belittled her.

Who in their right mind wants to subject themselves to this type of treatment? You say she "should have gone to the police" but would you?

I may or may not. But I certainly don't think its fair to expect everyone to believe me after 35 years of silence and no evidence whatsoever except a 35 year old uncorraborated, unverified allegation with more holes than a sponge. Certainly crimes go unreported and that doesn't mean they didn't happen ... but there really is no evidence here and it really breaks basic fairness to say such a terrible criminal accusation should be believed after such a long time absent any evidence or fair process. There is no truth in saying there is no benefit for her to lie when she got a million dollars, awards, and a blackmark on any Roe overturn while simultaneously claiming "of course a guilty person would deny it" as though an innocent person would what ... not deny it?

Whenever fairness or innocent until proven guilty or beyond a reasonable doubt is mentioned with Kavanaugh the only response is "well thats only for a court this isnt court" as though it is perfectly in line with justice to skip the procedural protections of the courts and destroy a life with a criminal accusation u have no good faith intention to pursue a conviction for. No one should be forced to report being raped, but if you don't it really isn't fair to assume the person accused is guilty absent actual evidence as theyve been cheated a fair process to exonerate themselves. Why is that so hard to grasp? Ur evidence is she said it serveral decades later and he was angry when denied being a serial gang rapist ... thats it. If Kavanaugh was black it sounds more implausible than the claims in To Kill a Mockingbird.

[Grassroots]

Mmm ahh I smell cap.

[Waldo]

First, we do NOT bed to put ourselves on the shoes of the women because we don't know what shoes the women have on. Ford started lying even before she got to the hearing, claiming she said afraid of flying. Her friend claimed there was never a party like the one Ford described and her own father doubted it. There media played dumb with Ford, claiming she had nothing to gain by lying. Right. Look at all the nothing she's gained.

Second, I'm really tired of people pointing at stats of unreported assaults like they're some kind of evidence of the man's guilt. It's like a way for people to pretend it's there when it's not. This has gotten the point of harassment. How many times do we need to do this?

[Libertas Vel Mors]

First, we do NOT bed to put ourselves on the shoes of the women because we don't know what shoes the women have on. Ford started lying even before she got to the hearing, claiming she said afraid of flying. Her friend claimed there was never a party like the one Ford described and her own father doubted it. There media played dumb with Ford, claiming she had nothing to gain by lying. Right. Look at all the nothing she's gained.

Second, I'm really tired of people pointing at stats of unreported assaults like they're some kind of evidence of the man's guilt. It's like a way for people to pretend it's there when it's not. This has gotten the point of harassment. How many times do we need to do this?

So much this. Remember when the left stood for free speech and the rule of law? Rip to the old ACLU.

[Progressive Pessimist]

First, we do NOT bed to put ourselves on the shoes of the women because we don't know what shoes the women have on. Ford started lying even before she got to the hearing, claiming she said afraid of flying. Her friend claimed there was never a party like the one Ford described and her own father doubted it. There media played dumb with Ford, claiming she had nothing to gain by lying. Right. Look at all the nothing she's gained.

Second, I'm really tired of people pointing at stats of unreported assaults like they're some kind of evidence of the man's guilt. It's like a way for people to pretend it's there when it's not. This has gotten the point of harassment. How many times do we need to do this?

So much this. Remember when the left stood for free speech and the rule of law? Rip to the old ACLU.

IRONY OVERLOAD!

[OSR stands with Israel]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

[Calthrina950]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

Trump himself, of course. Particularly with the ongoing impeachment.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

Opebo, himself a sex criminal.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

Trump himself, of course. Particularly with the ongoing impeachment.

Not really as there are many never Trump Republicans on here

[Calthrina950]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

Trump himself, of course. Particularly with the ongoing impeachment.

Not really as there are many never Trump Republicans on here

Just look at the arguments between Fuzzy Bear and just about every left-leaning poster of note on this forum.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

Trump himself, of course. Particularly with the ongoing impeachment.

Not really as there are many never Trump Republicans on here

Just look at the arguments between Fuzzy Bear and just about every left-leaning poster of note on this forum.

Yes but with Kavanugh almost every blue avatar has the same opinion, while almost every red avatar has the same opinion .

With Trump it is not the same which is why Trump is not as polarizing on here

[Calthrina950]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

Trump himself, of course. Particularly with the ongoing impeachment.

Not really as there are many never Trump Republicans on here

Just look at the arguments between Fuzzy Bear and just about every left-leaning poster of note on this forum.

Yes but with Kavanugh almost every blue avatar has the same opinion, while almost every red avatar has the same opinion .

With Trump it is not the same which is why Trump is not as polarizing on here

I can understand your point here, but I'm thinking more about the vigor and the divisiveness of the arguments, more than anything else.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Has there even been a more divisive topic on this forum then Kavanaugh.

Trump himself, of course. Particularly with the ongoing impeachment.

Not really as there are many never Trump Republicans on here

Just look at the arguments between Fuzzy Bear and just about every left-leaning poster of note on this forum.

Yes but with Kavanugh almost every blue avatar has the same opinion, while almost every red avatar has the same opinion .

With Trump it is not the same which is why Trump is not as polarizing on here

I can understand your point here, but I'm thinking more about the vigor and the divisiveness of the arguments, more than anything else.

Oh that was true with Kavanugh to especially during the hearings, the vitriol between the two sides was insane.

[Fuzzy Bear]

But I'm not going to treat him as a rapist, either.  The allegation is decades old.  There was no going to the police.

"There was no going to police."
Do you know how many sexual assaults (or attempts to sexually assault another individual) go unreported "to police" in our nation/world? Why even point this out, unless you are just being a douche about it.

Probably because its at least contemporaneous evidence. Even the liar in the Duke lacrosse case went to the police.

You people need to put yourselves in the shoes of the female in these situations. Many of them don't go to the police because they end up being victimized, not believed, reputations ruined, and more.
What Blasey Ford went through after she testified was horrendous. She had to move four times because of death threats. Even the President of our country belittled her.

Who in their right mind wants to subject themselves to this type of treatment? You say she "should have gone to the police" but would you?

That's the price of justice.  Go to the police, make the accusation, allow the accusation to be investigated, allow the accused to confront you (in Court), and allow a jury of one's peers to decide a verdict.  That's the price of justice.

Is it fair to the victim?  It's not fair that the victim was raped.  Do two wrongs make a right?  Can you put your feet in the shoes of Gary Dotson, as he rotted in prison for years on the basis of a false allegation?  If you had a son, would you want that to be his fate?

Is it tough to go to the police?  Well, yes, but doing the right thing is tough.  The fact that one has been horribly victimized does not excuse someone from doing the right thing, even when it's the hard thing.  We can, and should, do things as a society to make reporting sexual violence easier, and we need to support victims that DO report sexual assault.  Indeed, we should build a society that expects, approves of, and celebrates victims that come forth and report sexual assault.  THOSE victims are the heroic ones; THEY are the ones that make the most difference.  

Are there victims that have been horribly abused psychologically to where they believe that reporting victimization is something beyond horrible for them?  Of course I do.  I have met such people as a substance abuse counselor; their long-ago victimization drove their destructive addictions and their co-occurring disorders, and that is sad to see.  But few things are sadder, and more wrong, than an innocent person in prison who's there because someone lied, or because a jury did not apply the proper standard in assessing guilt.

So the answer to your very fair question is:  "Yes, I would go to the police if I wanted justice bad enough."  And my answer to any one of my daughters-in-law or granddaughters is, "Yes, and I'll be there supporting you at every turn."  Sexual offenders deserve to face justice, and deserve punishment for what they've done.  But not at the expense of a society that values liberty and considers the punishment of the innocent a far worse outcome than the avoidance of punishment by the guilty.

[Stranger in a strange land]

Kavanaugh is on the court, so I'm not sure why conservatives simply aren't satisfied with that and are so anxious to shove him down everyone's throat. There is no constitutional right to be liked and due process does not mean "YOU HAVE TO LIKE HIM OR YOU'RE VIOLATING THE LAW!". He can't have his cake and eat it too.

I can't say which is worse: this or "IF YOU DON'T LIKE CLARENCE THOMAS YOU'RE LITERALLY A RACIST KLANSMAN WHO THINKS HE HAS A LOW IQ BECAUSE HE'S BLACK!!!"

[BP🌹]

Once again, conservatives and Republicans demonstrate themselves in this thread to be horrible and shameless apologists for sexual assault so long as it increases their political power.

It’s not being an apologist if you believe someone is not guilty .

The highlighted sentence begs for recognition.

I have had my doubts about Kavanaugh.  I am not convinced that Blasey Ford is lying.  I base that on the content of her therapists notes that have come out.  I am not convinced that Blasey Ford isn't so screwed up, mentally, as to have skewed memories.  But I'm certainly convinced that Blasey Ford has been traumatized somehow.  When one's own father repudiates you to the national media, that's an indication of a tortured soul.

That we might not want to elevate Kavanaugh to the High Court in light of Blasey Ford's testimony is understandable.  He doesn't have a right to be there, and I don't find Kavanaugh to be this admirable figure; he's the kind of privileged drunken frat boy who often ends up in situations as Blasey Ford describes (which, of course, is not evidence of Kavanaugh's guilt).  And while I welcome the fact that Kavanaugh doesn't have one of these Intersectional world views, I find the Frat Boy world view to be the crappy other end of that spectrum.  So I would have not voted to confirm Kavanaugh, all things considered.

But I'm not going to treat him as a rapist, either.  The allegation is decades old.  There was no going to the police.  There is no probable cause; there is only Blasey Ford's accusation, and some therapeutic notes as a "sort of" corroboration.  Sexual assault is a problem in our society, but Guilt By Accusation is not the solution to that problem; it's the creation of an even greater wrong. 

Thank you for digging this awful thread out of its grave for no reason.