Christians break the Golden Rule when accepting Jesus as savior.

[Greatest I am]

To DL: Well, the Trinity is key here. While God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three entities, they are all part of the same "being". When God sent Jesus, he was sending a part of himself. So it's not truly "sacrificing your child to save yourself".

If I was forced to perform the sacrifice, I would obviously sacrifice myself over my child. But it is kind of silly to ask that question of me, as I am not God, so there will never be a need for me to organize a sin sacrifice.

Three entities means three Gods.

If Jesus is God, show where in scriptures that say God can die.

If Jesus did not stay dead then there was no sacrifice as nothing was lost which negates a sacrifice.

You might also wonder why the Trinity doctrine was not implemented till over4 300 years after Jesus supposedly died.

Regards
DL

[DavidB.]

[Greatest I am]

To DL: Well, the Trinity is key here. While God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three entities, they are all part of the same "being". When God sent Jesus, he was sending a part of himself. So it's not truly "sacrificing your child to save yourself".

If I was forced to perform the sacrifice, I would obviously sacrifice myself over my child. But it is kind of silly to ask that question of me, as I am not God, so there will never be a need for me to organize a sin sacrifice.

You don't have to explain this stuff to him, Wulfric.  He is being disingenuous with all of his arguments and he has turned gnostic Christianity into some tortured version of self worship.

That is a lie.

Only idol worshipers worship the God they think they know and that includes Christians and Muslims. Not Gnostic Christians.

If lying about Gnostic Christian beliefs is your only defence, then you show the lack of veracity in yours.  

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

You would also have to ignore scriptures that say some walked with God before Jesus even came along. Enoch and Job come to mind.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

If I was forced to perform the sacrifice, I would obviously sacrifice myself over my child.

Then you would not be emulating your God and would end in hell.

Ignoring hell as it is not real, you show that you have better morals than your God.

Good for you.

Regards
DL

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam

[Greatest I am]

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam

A rather useless link given that Christians think Adam fell and showed himself to be defective.

Or was confirming what I put your point?

Regards
DL

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

This is not a good argument.  Not only penal substitution but any Christian account of the atonement in some way involves people relying for their salvation on the fact of Christ's suffering and death.

Sorry to burst your bubble on this. Scriptures say otherwise.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

All that is required for salvation is knowledge of the truth.

Part of that truth to a Gnostic Christian is that there is no hell otherwise we would all end there as we all contribute to the sins of others as we all interact together.

That conundrum is why we are Universalists.

EG. Hitler was not born evil but became so and was helped to be what he was by all those who interacted with him. He was not born evil but was made so. So who should be blamed if not all who made him what he ended up being?

Now apply that to all people and see that a God would either have to punish all f us or forgive all of us.

Regards
DL

Of course, if we were subject to judgement based on our actions alone, we would all go to hell. But that doesn't mean hell doesn't exist - rather, it indicates why we can only be saved by faith and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not through our works or through making up a version of god that endorses whatever we do. Heaven can be reached, and hell can be avoided, but we can only reach heaven through Jesus - our works don't do it because they are a disappointment to god! Sure, we may go to church every week or donate thousands of dollars to the American Cancer Society, or go on thousands of mission trips, but while those are all great things to do, they do not change the fact that our lives are irreparably tainted with sin, therefore they cannot be used as a reason to get us into heaven. The bible is also very clear in The Ten Commandments, Matthew, and 1st John (among other places) that we are not to reshape god into our own image (in fact, doing so is sinful!), but to love him, follow him in the manner the bible prescribes, and obey all of his commandments (Even though just one sin during our lives makes us require Jesus to enter heaven (and all of us have sinned at least once), and we can fully trust in him to provide us salvation IF we make it clear through prayer that we are sorry for our sins and fully accepting of his gift, it is still important to obey commandments (as best we can), because we're getting to heaven because of the sacrifice, and the least we can do to show how thankful we are is by showing that our repentance is not a joke through striving to obey commandments in everything we do).

Adam and Eve were able to fall because God created them with free will. Of course, god instilled in Adam and Eve a great loyalty to him, and told them exactly what he required of them - but they were tempted by Satan, broke the commandment they had been given, and in doing so, they banished the human race from the perfect environment provided by the garden of Eden, released diseases into the world, bathed the world in sin, and made it so that all human life eventually ended in death (Death of other animals, of course, was instituted at the time of the earth's creation, several billion years before Adam existed). As for why God gave Adam and Eve (and by proxy, all humans, as we are all descended from Adam and Eve) the ability to be tempted by Satan, perhaps he wanted his creation to have willful faith in him and not forced faith? Perhaps he, even at the time of the creation of Adam, was already planning to release a savior onto the world at some point, and so saw no need to take away free will? Or perhaps there is another explanation that only he knows. Whatever the answer is, I believe that if you get to heaven, all your questions will be answered.

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

You would also have to ignore scriptures that say some walked with God before Jesus even came along. Enoch and Job come to mind.

Regards
DL

Before Jesus's sacrifice, God allowed people to obtain salvation through animal sacrifice. But with Jesus's sacrifice, that is no longer necessary, so it no longer works as a method of salvation.

To DL: Well, the Trinity is key here. While God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three entities, they are all part of the same "being". When God sent Jesus, he was sending a part of himself. So it's not truly "sacrificing your child to save yourself".

If I was forced to perform the sacrifice, I would obviously sacrifice myself over my child. But it is kind of silly to ask that question of me, as I am not God, so there will never be a need for me to organize a sin sacrifice.

Three entities means three Gods.

If Jesus is God, show where in scriptures that say God can die.

If Jesus did not stay dead then there was no sacrifice as nothing was lost which negates a sacrifice.

You might also wonder why the Trinity doctrine was not implemented till over4 300 years after Jesus supposedly died.

Regards
DL

Jesus was resurrected as a means of showing that his sacrifice was what he said it was going to be, that he was actually god, and that he could be fully trusted. He still died, it's just that he did not die in the permanent matter that we do. But the bible is clear that that does not make his sacrifice worthless. Also, as far as how he can die if he is god, well, his death was done in a special manner. He did not die directly through the effects of being nailed to and left on the cross, he died by his spirit being divinely removed and taken to heaven by the "father" part of the trinity. He was then resurrected by direct divine action. At the end of resurrection period, he returned to heaven through rising through the air back up to it. No death of any type required.

Also, the trinity does not mean three gods, but "one god who lives and works in three different ways at the same time" (Christian Doctrine, Guthrie, 1994). Yes, this entails God "separating" to accomplish his work, but it does not change the fact that it is one god.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam

A rather useless link given that Christians think Adam fell and showed himself to be defective.

Or was confirming what I put your point?

Regards
DL

Having free will is not a "defect".

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Am I the only one who is reminded by the people arguing with GIA of the people who argued for multiple pages with CountryClassSF over gay marriage in 2015 or anyone who has ever argued with J. J. about anything ever?>

[Greatest I am]

This is not a good argument.  Not only penal substitution but any Christian account of the atonement in some way involves people relying for their salvation on the fact of Christ's suffering and death.

Sorry to burst your bubble on this. Scriptures say otherwise.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

All that is required for salvation is knowledge of the truth.

Part of that truth to a Gnostic Christian is that there is no hell otherwise we would all end there as we all contribute to the sins of others as we all interact together.

That conundrum is why we are Universalists.

EG. Hitler was not born evil but became so and was helped to be what he was by all those who interacted with him. He was not born evil but was made so. So who should be blamed if not all who made him what he ended up being?

Now apply that to all people and see that a God would either have to punish all f us or forgive all of us.

Regards
DL

Of course, if we were subject to judgement based on our actions alone, we would all go to hell. But that doesn't mean hell doesn't exist - rather, it indicates why we can only be saved by faith and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not through our works or through making up a version of god that endorses whatever we do. Heaven can be reached, and hell can be avoided, but we can only reach heaven through Jesus - our works don't do it because they are a disappointment to god! Sure, we may go to church every week or donate thousands of dollars to the American Cancer Society, or go on thousands of mission trips, but while those are all great things to do, they do not change the fact that our lives are irreparably tainted with sin, therefore they cannot be used as a reason to get us into heaven. The bible is also very clear in The Ten Commandments, Matthew, and 1st John (among other places) that we are not to reshape god into our own image (in fact, doing so is sinful!), but to love him, follow him in the manner the bible prescribes, and obey all of his commandments (Even though just one sin during our lives makes us require Jesus to enter heaven (and all of us have sinned at least once), and we can fully trust in him to provide us salvation IF we make it clear through prayer that we are sorry for our sins and fully accepting of his gift, it is still important to obey commandments (as best we can), because we're getting to heaven because of the sacrifice, and the least we can do to show how thankful we are is by showing that our repentance is not a joke through striving to obey commandments in everything we do).

Adam and Eve were able to fall because God created them with free will. Of course, god instilled in Adam and Eve a great loyalty to him, and told them exactly what he required of them - but they were tempted by Satan, broke the commandment they had been given, and in doing so, they banished the human race from the perfect environment provided by the garden of Eden, released diseases into the world, bathed the world in sin, and made it so that all human life eventually ended in death (Death of other animals, of course, was instituted at the time of the earth's creation, several billion years before Adam existed). As for why God gave Adam and Eve (and by proxy, all humans, as we are all descended from Adam and Eve) the ability to be tempted by Satan, perhaps he wanted his creation to have willful faith in him and not forced faith? Perhaps he, even at the time of the creation of Adam, was already planning to release a savior onto the world at some point, and so saw no need to take away free will? Or perhaps there is another explanation that only he knows. Whatever the answer is, I believe that if you get to heaven, all your questions will be answered.

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

You would also have to ignore scriptures that say some walked with God before Jesus even came along. Enoch and Job come to mind.

Regards
DL

Before Jesus's sacrifice, God allowed people to obtain salvation through animal sacrifice. But with Jesus's sacrifice, that is no longer necessary, so it no longer works as a method of salvation.

To DL: Well, the Trinity is key here. While God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three entities, they are all part of the same "being". When God sent Jesus, he was sending a part of himself. So it's not truly "sacrificing your child to save yourself".

If I was forced to perform the sacrifice, I would obviously sacrifice myself over my child. But it is kind of silly to ask that question of me, as I am not God, so there will never be a need for me to organize a sin sacrifice.

Three entities means three Gods.

If Jesus is God, show where in scriptures that say God can die.

If Jesus did not stay dead then there was no sacrifice as nothing was lost which negates a sacrifice.

You might also wonder why the Trinity doctrine was not implemented till over4 300 years after Jesus supposedly died.

Regards
DL

Jesus was resurrected as a means of showing that his sacrifice was what he said it was going to be, that he was actually god, and that he could be fully trusted. He still died, it's just that he did not die in the permanent matter that we do. But the bible is clear that that does not make his sacrifice worthless. Also, as far as how he can die if he is god, well, his death was done in a special manner. He did not die directly through the effects of being nailed to and left on the cross, he died by his spirit being divinely removed and taken to heaven by the "father" part of the trinity. He was then resurrected by direct divine action. At the end of resurrection period, he returned to heaven through rising through the air back up to it. No death of any type required.

Also, the trinity does not mean three gods, but "one god who lives and works in three different ways at the same time" (Christian Doctrine, Guthrie, 1994). Yes, this entails God "separating" to accomplish his work, but it does not change the fact that it is one god.

So now you have a God who can somehow die. Shall I tell you what you sound like?

As to your free will for A & E.
God put Satan in Eden with his power to deceive inside of Satan. That power negates any free choice that they could have made.

Further.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam

A rather useless link given that Christians think Adam fell and showed himself to be defective.

Or was confirming what I put your point?

Regards
DL

Having free will is not a "defect".

Read the post just above and opine if you like.

Regards
DL