What should the Social Democratic parties do?

[parochial boy]

To revisit the now familiar topic about the struggles of the European Centre Left after last night's debacle for Labour, what strategies can the parties adopt to halt their decline?

So far, there have been various attempts to both adopt right wing or centrist liberal policies, which failed abjectly in the way that they led to the alienation of the base.

Now we are seeing more "hard left" leaders like Corbyn just make matters worse. Even if you consider Hamon to be in the same type, he won't even make the second round, so there really isn't anything to show that moving to the left has been much help either.

So the question is, how exactly do you maintain left wing policies as well as appeal to a wide enough number of people to win an election

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have no clue, and that terrifies me. Hence my sig.

[Antonio the Sixth]

My gut reaction right now is "stick to our guns, keep seeking the light in a world of darkness, keep being who we are even if the world doesn't want us any more", because while it might not be any more effective than the third-way strategy, it feels less humiliating.

[Famous Mortimer]

Left economically but oppose third world immigration.

You know, the policies they advocated when they actually won elections.

Not that hard.

[ApatheticAustrian]

my answer is hardcore networking and hardcore globalization of rules and treaties...but i know that this means that we lose 1 or 2 generations...in the best case.

[Intell]

With Labour, social democratic working class roots, that adress problems that face working class and poor countries. Opposition to the EU, free trade, globalisation, and free markets, unless they with a strong social, worker's aspect, and no working class industries net-wise are at negative as a results.

The building of manufacturing/other jobs through government investment for the working class, is of necessity, as well as a focus of societal equality, and contribution of the society towards the welfare state, and the ideal common and equitable ownership of the means of production.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I've thought for a while one may to save the left and the EU for that matter is to rescue the label "populist" from the sceptics. Is I mean, is it a surprise the EU is so distrusted when it's supporters run away from even the insinuation they are populist? That's why their should be a concerted effort to seize the EU, under a pan-europran front group to launch a sort of European Deal (which would include a unified border security) - massive infrastructure development, unified working rights and minimum wages, a common social security system etc.)

[Tender Branson]

Don't know really.

In Austria, Christian Kern took over as Chancellor about a year ago and the SPÖ went from 22% to about 29-30% now ... in federal polling.

But there was a regional by-election in Graz recently (2nd largest city in Austria) and the SPÖ did not only lose there, but got their worst result ever with only 10% (after 60% in the 1970s).

[parochial boy]

Interesting that people's opinions tend to line up with their ideological biases.

I mean, I think CrabCake's solution sounds perfect, but then I would think that as a passionate pro-European.

In many respects, I think the left just needs to be around when it becomes obvious that the liberal and nationalists rights don't have any real solutions.

[Phony Moderate]

I think left-civic nationalism would be the way to go, personally. Think Peter Shore, or maybe a leftier SNP without the dodgy business connections and Europhilia.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Go back to the roots, go back to Bernstein: Social Democracy as simply the efficient administration of government for the explicit benefit of ordinary people.

[ApatheticAustrian]

imho left nationalism without "europhilia" is dead in our times...can't work on the long run.

[ingemann]

Left wing economic policies.
Limit third world emigration.
Push EU to adopt SocDem POV

Opposing EU are a bad idea, because they can't deliver on it. But that doesn't mean that they can't be critical when EU does something stupid, and they could cooperate with other SocDem parties to change EU and tell the population that they do so. If they can get their voter to understand that they have a common interest with SocDem voters in other countries, EU will look less dangerous.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Interesting that people's opinions tend to line up with their ideological biases.

I mean, I think CrabCake's solution sounds perfect, but then I would think that as a passionate pro-European.

In many respects, I think the left just needs to be around when it becomes obvious that the liberal and nationalists rights don't have any real solutions.

Well, I would disagree with that. I'm idealist enough that I would quite like a very pro-refugee policy, but it's clear that theatre will hamper efforts to build a pan European program and leads to the vultures gaining power. Probay the best thing we can do for the Africans is to encourage investment so that young people have better options than risking their lives so they can send remittances home. (Which would probably be accused of nro-imperalism, but it's better than letting people drown or allowing Nazis to reach power).

With regards to other hot button issues: on Islam make a distinction between Salafism and other types. This is starting to happen already, but the left should double down. Channel the poeples islamophobia upon the Saudis - I honestly think freeing gulf assets and property would be a populist (and moral) move.


But really the biggest thing is to mainly be talking about relevant issues to people's lives. Abstract concepts like nationalism or globalism or Europeanism or secularism or socialism is all very well and good, but most people respond best to issues directly affecting them, their family and their community.

[parochial boy]

Well, I would disagree with that. I'm idealist enough that I would quite like a very pro-refugee policy, but it's clear that theatre will hamper efforts to build a pan European program and leads to the vultures gaining power. Probay the best thing we can do for the Africans is to encourage investment so that young people have better options than risking their lives so they can send remittances home. (Which would probably be accused of nro-imperalism, but it's better than letting people drown or allowing Nazis to reach power).

With regards to other hot button issues: on Islam make a distinction between Salafism and other types. This is starting to happen already, but the left should double down. Channel the poeples islamophobia upon the Saudis - I honestly think freeing gulf assets and property would be a populist (and moral) move.


But really the biggest thing is to mainly be talking about relevant issues to people's lives. Abstract concepts like nationalism or globalism or Europeanism or secularism or socialism is all very well and good, but most people respond best to issues directly affecting them, their family and their community.

I would really like to see left wing parties do that, but I guess I am just too pessimistic to think that it would work.

I mean, if you ask people what is relevant to their lives, they tend to say immigration; and that is going to be a really hard square to circle for any Social Democratic politician.

And to make matters worse, any left winger talking tough on immigration just comes across as phony and opportunistic.

By all means, talk about family and community and things that people come across day to day - but what is that, job insecurity? low wages? bad transport? These are things where any solutions; like worker councils, "autogestion", Universal Basic Income or whatever; by their nature come across as abstract and conceptual and remote.

[Beet]

I said years ago that the European left should move right on immigration to head off the far right; I was laughed at by the resident experts here. I also said America was better able to handle it, and I was wrong about that part. Mea culpa. But the advice to Social Democratic parties is still sound. Crack down on immigration. Play to nationalism. And when there are riots, crack heads.

However, now you guys have a deeper problem, which is that if your country is in the Eurozone, you have no independent fiscal policy. The left's instinct is, naturally, to support workers, to stimulate spending, and so on. None of this can be done with deficit caps and the constant need to attend to competitiveness, with the German monster as the ever-present benchmark.

The best case scenario is that the SPD wins in Germany. They stop immigration and initiate mass deportations, squelching the issue. Then, they initiate a program of massive fiscal stimulus, raising the living standards of German workers. As Germans live better, the government's popularity soars. Meanwhile, Germany's competitiveness declines, wage-price inflation rises, its trade surplus evaporates and is replaced by a massive deficit. The other Euro countries rush into the vacuum with exports to Germany, stimulating their economies. The result is a more prosperous, fast-growing continent with lower immigration and room to pursue Social-Democratic economics.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Well, I would disagree with that. I'm idealist enough that I would quite like a very pro-refugee policy, but it's clear that theatre will hamper efforts to build a pan European program and leads to the vultures gaining power. Probay the best thing we can do for the Africans is to encourage investment so that young people have better options than risking their lives so they can send remittances home. (Which would probably be accused of nro-imperalism, but it's better than letting people drown or allowing Nazis to reach power).

With regards to other hot button issues: on Islam make a distinction between Salafism and other types. This is starting to happen already, but the left should double down. Channel the poeples islamophobia upon the Saudis - I honestly think freeing gulf assets and property would be a populist (and moral) move.


But really the biggest thing is to mainly be talking about relevant issues to people's lives. Abstract concepts like nationalism or globalism or Europeanism or secularism or socialism is all very well and good, but most people respond best to issues directly affecting them, their family and their community.

I would really like to see left wing parties do that, but I guess I am just too pessimistic to think that it would work.

I mean, if you ask people what is relevant to their lives, they tend to say immigration; and that is going to be a really hard square to circle for any Social Democratic politician.

And to make matters worse, any left winger talking tough on immigration just comes across as phony and opportunistic.

By all means, talk about family and community and things that people come across day to day - but what is that, job insecurity? low wages? bad transport? These are things where any solutions; like worker councils, "autogestion", Universal Basic Income or whatever; by their nature come across as abstract and conceptual and remote.

My (scattered) thoughts on immigration:
- don't get suckered into the trap of pretending to be a wet Tory and start complaining that the CBI will not be happy about migration cutbacks. Neither particularly convincing or useful in the long run.
-  instead of "talking tuff" - social democrats rarely as you say sound convincing when they attempt that sort of rhetoric - maybe a sort of bleeding heart anti-migration approach could be adopted.  With puppy dog eyes make speeches about heartless global corporations exploiting abused immogrants and developing communities suffering brain drain and devious smugglers and try to spin a narrative that hypothetical mass immigration would be bad for both Africans and Europeans. There is no reason to go for the whole "they're bringing crime, they're bringing rapists" routine and especially absurd French style arguments about muh identity, muh pork, muh burkinis. That can be left to the likes of the FPO.

(Weirdly enough, from what I gather on New Zealand the left is sort of going down this route against the business and migration friendly Nationals, by pivoting hard on housing costs and foreign property speculators and openly musing about working with Winston.)

I disagree about the solutions you mentioned being too abstract for voters. All you need to do is direct each solution away from its white paper origins and onto a real (or generalised) voter and his or her family. So a lot of people might react to a uBI by thinking that obviously it will be exploited by shiftless bums, but if you focus on the micro-issues - a working mother or father able to rely on the BI to spend more time with their child, a shelf-stacker who wants to start their own business (ASPIRATIONAL!!) but has to spend all their time tied to the job and is worried about bankruptcy etc.

[DavidB.]

Left economically but oppose third world immigration.

You know, the policies they advocated when they actually won elections.

Not that hard.

Nailed it. In addition to that, social democrats should stop hating ordinary (non-immigrant) people's culture and traditions. The third world immigration needs to go, the EU overreach needs to go (without doing away with the good parts) and the SJW tendencies/condescending attitude toward ordinary people's lifestyles and patriotism needs to go. The Danish Social Democrats appear to be the only ones who start to understand this.

[Intell]

imho left nationalism without "europhilia" is dead in our times...can't work on the long run.

Well, centrist liberalism certainly can't.

[Crumpets]

I hear if you say "James Callaghan" three times in front of a mirror with the lights off, your party gains an automatic 10% in the polls. Might be worth a try.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Hope that after the next war you come out on the right side of history.

[nicholas.slaydon]

Go back to the roots, go back to Bernstein: Social Democracy as simply the efficient administration of government for the explicit benefit of ordinary people.

[parochial boy]

Regarding the EU, I tend to think that something like it necessary for social democracy to even be possible any more. I mean, corporations are transnational, so government has to be in response, and protectionism isnt really viable for any European nation, as none of them are really big enough markets for a multinational to really care.

Then again, that is a hard argument to square with people's sense of pride in their national identity, so another cause for pessimism.

and the SJW tendencies/condescending attitude toward ordinary people's lifestyles and patriotism needs to go.

Yes, but in practice, how? as I mentioned earlier, left wing leaders playing that sort of line tend to come off as patronising and insincere.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I dunno, people can be proud of being from Yorkshire or Somerset without demanding that the these regions break awat.

[parochial boy]

People are attached to "national sovereignty" though, even if it is pretty flipping meaningless in practice.