I'm a master's student in theology. AMA.
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  I'm a master's student in theology. AMA.
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Author Topic: I'm a master's student in theology. AMA.  (Read 10462 times)
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2017, 07:08:59 PM »


Goldmined.
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RFayette
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2017, 08:05:39 PM »

If forced, who would you rather have to debate with:  a Jesus mythicist or a "Gnostic"? 
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2017, 09:19:46 PM »

If forced, who would you rather have to debate with:  a Jesus mythicist or a "Gnostic"? 

Before encountering GIA I would have said the "Gnostic", but now I think a Jesus mythicist might actually be more engaging and respectful.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2017, 08:54:31 PM »

A few more questions:

1) From a Protestant point of view, Catholic/Orthodox apologists often have this annoying tendency to give the farm away when it comes to higher criticism of scripture, but turn into obstinate fundamentalists when it comes to the historical evidence for 'their' traditions.

It's puzzling, because from my (admittedly biased standpoint), it seems like there is much better evidence for say, an early date for John's Gospel, than for early use of icons or prayers to the Virgin. How do you as a Catholic reconcile this apparent discrepancy?

I don't see it as a discrepancy mostly because I believe that there's both good evidence for a high view of Scripture and good evidence for an early origin for many Catholic/Orthodox traditions, or at least early things that developed into those traditions. For example, there's at least one extant Marian prayer that's probably from the third century--not the Apostolic Age, but pre-Constantine, so I'd still consider it "early Church". But, yes, I totally agree that there isn't high enough a view of Scripture among some of these people.

How early is "early" for John's Gospel? The dates I tend to hear are within the last decade or two of the first century--after the other Gospels, but easily within a somewhat-longer-than-average lifespan assuming the Apostle John was in his late teens at the Crucifixion/Resurrection. The most annoying historical-critical argument about Gospel dating that I've heard was from my Intro to New Testament professor last year, who insisted on a post-Roman-Jewish War date for Mark because Jesus prophesies the destruction of the Temple in Mark. I pointed out that, entirely ignoring the fact that she, an ordained minister, was presupposing that Jesus wasn't supernatural, it's far from out of the ordinary for radical preachers to prophesy disaster, so it shouldn't be surprising even to a thoroughgoing naturalist that Jesus predicted something that did in fact happen. She refused to respond and acted affronted that I'd questioned her even though one of our readings for the class made the same point I had, and I left class that day with deeply mixed feelings about coming to BU for my theology degree.
Good grief. One only needs to look at what was found at Qumran to realize that there were Jewish sects back in Jesus' day that were predicting the destruction of the temple. To use that as an argument for dating Mark as post-First Jewish Revolt simply doesn't hold water.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2017, 08:58:38 PM »
« Edited: April 19, 2017, 09:02:48 PM by DC Al Fine »

Wow so many followup questions

A few more questions:

1) From a Protestant point of view, Catholic/Orthodox apologists often have this annoying tendency to give the farm away when it comes to higher criticism of scripture, but turn into obstinate fundamentalists when it comes to the historical evidence for 'their' traditions.

It's puzzling, because from my (admittedly biased standpoint), it seems like there is much better evidence for say, an early date for John's Gospel, than for early use of icons or prayers to the Virgin. How do you as a Catholic reconcile this apparent discrepancy?

I don't see it as a discrepancy mostly because I believe that there's both good evidence for a high view of Scripture and good evidence for an early origin for many Catholic/Orthodox traditions, or at least early things that developed into those traditions. For example, there's at least one extant Marian prayer that's probably from the third century--not the Apostolic Age, but pre-Constantine, so I'd still consider it "early Church". But, yes, I totally agree that there isn't high enough a view of Scripture among some of these people.

How early is "early" for John's Gospel? The dates I tend to hear are within the last decade or two of the first century--after the other Gospels, but easily within a somewhat-longer-than-average lifespan assuming the Apostle John was in his late teens at the Crucifixion/Resurrection.

Fair enough. My issue is more with the 'giving the farm away' on the Bible than the early date for icons.

Before ~100AD would be enough for me, although I've heard people throw out the 70's with okay reasoning.

What exactly is that extant Marian prayer you mentioned?

The most annoying historical-critical argument about Gospel dating that I've heard was from my Intro to New Testament professor last year, who insisted on a post-Roman-Jewish War date for Mark because Jesus prophesies the destruction of the Temple in Mark. I pointed out that, entirely ignoring the fact that she, an ordained minister, was presupposing that Jesus wasn't supernatural, it's far from out of the ordinary for radical preachers to prophesy disaster, so it shouldn't be surprising even to a thoroughgoing naturalist that Jesus predicted something that did in fact happen. She refused to respond and acted affronted that I'd questioned her even though one of our readings for the class made the same point I had, and I left class that day with deeply mixed feelings about coming to BU for my theology degree.

That's exactly the sort of nonsense I'm talking about. I have no idea why this sort of thing gets so much respect in liberal denominations, or the secular academy for that matter. Many of the major ideas of higher criticism completely fail when applied to modern day issues (e.g. Your example of prophesying disaster, or that academic who 'proved' Winnie the Pooh was written by four different authors over a couple hundred years using the same reasoning for JEDP).

I'm curious now. Could you give a rough idea of where you stand on the the dating and authorship of the New Testament?

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To be honest, I'm not quite sure, but I can speak to this anecdotally. Non-white/non-Western Catholics I know tend to be wary of some of what Francis is doing or trying to do on big sexy Western ~social issues~ but not as strongly critical of him otherwise as First World conservative Catholics tend to be. I have a Mexican Catholic acquaintance who explicitly identifies himself as "a trad" but strongly approves of the Pope on issues related to immigration/refugees, war, the environment, and so forth, despite being pretty alarmed by things like that one footnote in Amoris, and a Filipina Catholic acquaintance who seems to feel similarly, although I discuss Church politics with her less. Uncomplicated support of and uncomplicated opposition to Francis both seem to be "Western things".

Let me rephrase. I was mainly thinking about an issue that doesn't get a lot of play in Western media; the competition the Roman Church is getting from Evangelicalism/Pentecostalism in Latin America and a few other places. Has he been making any changes or taking any stances about that?

3. Form partnerships of some sort between healthier and less-healthy parishes to share people, resources, etc. rather than closing and merging parishes as a matter of first and only resort. Some positive steps in this direction are already being made, but not enough.


Could you elaborate on this?

1. Stop ordaining ministers who can't get through the Apostles' Creed without crossing their fingers.

AMEN!
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2017, 03:02:18 PM »
« Edited: April 21, 2017, 03:20:12 PM by modern maverick »

What exactly is that extant Marian prayer you mentioned?

The Latin incipit is Sub tuum praesidium. Wikipedia's translation from the original Greek is: "Beneath your compassion, we take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one." To be honest, the Mariology here is too maximalist even for me, which is saying something.

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I'm not an expert on this, and not super-interested in the subject, but here's what #analysis I have:

First and most importantly: The entire Bible, regardless of when and why its human authors put pen to paper, is Divinely inspired and is normative for Christian faith and morals.

Pauline epistles: Mostly written when and under what circumstances they say they were, possibly with a few exceptions.
Mark: Written around the same time as the Pauline epistles, i.e. ~50s, probably under the circumstances in which it's traditionally said to have been written.
Matthew and Luke: Recensions of Mark adding other firsthand accounts, probably ~60s or ~70s. My crackpot Catholic hack theory is that the authors were probably close to the Virgin Mary (which is in fact traditionally said to be true of Luke).
John: Written by John, the beloved Apostle, towards the end of his life in the ~80s or ~90s.
Acts: Continuation of the narrative of Luke by the same author.
Johannine epistles: Also written by John.
Revelation: May also have been written by John, but, if it was, removed in date from the Gospel and epistles by a number of years, hence the significant stylistic differences. Alternately, written by another man named John working within the same tradition. I favor a signifcantly earlier date for Revelation than most historical-critical scholars.
Miscellaneous epistles: No idea so I tend to default to the traditional view.

Bonus, non-canonical: Protoevangelium of James: Mostly true events, but written by some insufferable hack who wanted to promote Mary even more than was deserved, presumably without her involvement because she never committed a sin.

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I really don't know, sorry. I wonder this too. I certainly hope so.

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In Adams, Massachusetts, there were historically two Catholic parishes, Notre Dame des Sept Douleurs (traditionally Quebecois) and St. Stanislaus Kostka (traditionally Polish). In 2009, the Diocese of Springfield, led by the unbelievably slimy and now thankfully retired Bishop Timothy McDonnell, consolidated the parishes into one, Blessed John Paul II (now, of course, St. John Paul II), which was supposed to exclusively use the Notre Dame building. I suspect the name of the new parish was intended to be a bone thrown to the Poles whose (absolutely beautiful) church was being shuttered; if that was the case, then it was an unsatisfying bone, because the former St. Stanislaus parishioners started a round-the-clock vigil to protest the closing of their church, which went on for three years. Finally the diocese agreed to reopen the church and have the combined parish celebrate the earlier of its two Sunday morning Masses there. Similar accommodations were reached in Northampton, in which five parishes were conglomerated into one, but some of the other buildings continued to be used for certain purposes (there are things I love about Northampton but the sea of faith has pretty much gone the way of the Aral there). I think these sorts of accommodations are a far better, more culturally and historically responsible solution than just shuttering parishes and calling it a day.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2017, 07:28:17 PM »

Bonus, non-canonical: Protoevangelium of James: Mostly true events, but written by some insufferable hack who wanted to promote Mary even more than was deserved, presumably without her involvement because she never committed a sin.

Mostly true?  I fail to see how the Protoevangelium can be reconciled with the Gospels.  If the events that happened there had actually happened, there's no way that Joseph, Mary, or Jesus could have lived Jesus' early life in obscurity.
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« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2017, 08:31:32 PM »

What's your opinion of this article and its follow-up?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2017, 09:12:13 PM »


what the heck

That second article is grade A trolling, gotta give it that.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2017, 10:42:42 PM »

Bonus, non-canonical: Protoevangelium of James: Mostly true events, but written by some insufferable hack who wanted to promote Mary even more than was deserved, presumably without her involvement because she never committed a sin.

Mostly true?  I fail to see how the Protoevangelium can be reconciled with the Gospels.  If the events that happened there had actually happened, there's no way that Joseph, Mary, or Jesus could have lived Jesus' early life in obscurity.

I reread parts of the Protoevangelium just now and you're right, there's a lot more incoherent bullsh**tting in there than I was remembering. The rest of my analysis stands.


I was literally just discussing these with Catholic friends on Facebook! They're hilarious. I like how the title of the second one uses "Orthodoxy" as an adjective instead of "Orthodox".

Did you find these through Rod Dreher's blog? That seems to be where my friends found out about this.
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2017, 12:06:21 AM »

Did you find these through Rod Dreher's blog? That seems to be where my friends found out about this.

Saw it through a retweet of his blog, yeah.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2017, 03:49:18 PM »

Bump. I finished up my work for my degree over the past week and am now just waiting for my diploma to roll in. Any more questions?
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
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« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2017, 04:11:39 PM »

What are your next plans?
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2017, 04:15:33 PM »


I'm hoping to adjunct somewhere in or near the Pioneer Valley for a while (Greenfield Community College has people come in to teach philosophy and world religions classes sometimes and I think Keene State does as well) and then maybe in a few years go for this part-time MS in Library Science that Simmons College runs out of the Mount Holyoke campus (both are women's colleges on the undergraduate level but their graduate and professional programs are coed). I also have some writing projects I want to start working on more seriously.
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BuckeyeNut
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« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2017, 06:09:07 PM »

What are your thoughts on the historic peace churches in Christianity?
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FEMA Camp Administrator
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« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2017, 06:25:54 PM »

Degreee financing... how?
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2017, 02:34:06 PM »

What are your thoughts on the historic peace churches in Christianity?

They're not really in the same ambit as me theologically but I have a ton of respect for them politically and morally. There's some Anabaptist admixture in both my personal circles and my academic pedigree, the main vector being my advisor's intellectual relationship with figures like McClendon and Hauerwas.


In my case, generous scholarships plus family money, but I also know quite a few people who've worked their way through. BUSTH isn't really that expensive by American standards, and actually costs a lot less than going to BU for undergrad.
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« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2017, 03:57:59 PM »

Is your family particularly well off? I'm inquiring as I'm interested in the practical realities of getting an impractical degree (for obvious reasons).
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2017, 04:31:30 PM »

Is your family particularly well off? I'm inquiring as I'm interested in the practical realities of getting an impractical degree (for obvious reasons).

We live a middle-class lifestyle but we do so by means (investments, money markets) characteristic of a rich family (literal champagne socialist and massive HP). We're not so comfortably off that working or not working makes no difference, though, so I'm definitely going to try to enter the workforce now if I can.
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RFayette
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« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2017, 06:49:23 PM »

So is your end goal to work as a librarian then, or are there other career paths for a master's degree in library science?
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #95 on: June 17, 2017, 07:55:24 PM »

So is your end goal to work as a librarian then, or are there other career paths for a master's degree in library science?

Tentatively that's the goal, but I'm not sure, and I don't think it's the only path that's possible. We'll see what paths open up for me.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2017, 10:59:34 AM »

What do you think of Nietzsche?
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Classic Conservative
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2017, 07:41:31 PM »

I have three questions for you as a fellow Massachusetts catholic:

As you may know this is the tenth year since Summorum Pontificum, the liberalization of practice of the Tridentine mass, was signed by Pope Benedict XIV, what do you think of the document? Have you ever entered mass in the Extraordinary Form?

You mentioned earlier that you have a strong distaste of the liberal wing of Christianity, what do you think of James Martin SJ and other left leaning groups like Nuns on the Bus et cetera?

Why do you think that some orders of nuns and brothers, ex. The Dominican Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist, Sisters of Life, Sister Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus, The Benedictines of Clear Creek Abbey, have exploded in population recently, they are more traditional in practice and are habited, while other orders of lay religious including Sisters of Notre Dame, Sisters of Charity, Xaverian Brothers etc. have floundered in the past fifty years?
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