Something-gate: Trump claims Obama bugged Trump Tower.

[Beet]

You are 100% right, EnglishPete. The whole charade is folding quicker than Badger at a poker game.

So the counter theory is that the CIA used Umbrage to hack the DNC for Trump and pin it on the Russians? That theory is almost as insane as it being some 300 lb. kid in his mom's basement.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

You are 100% right, EnglishPete. The whole charade is folding quicker than Badger at a poker game.

So the counter theory is that the CIA used Umbrage to hack the DNC for Trump and pin it on the Russians? That theory is almost as insane as it being some 300 lb. kid in his mom's basement.

The fact that the same CIA that ten years ago fabricated WMDs in Iraq apparently is now infallible is a sign of insanity. Isn't the definition of that word doing the same thing over and over again? They don't have WWIII on their minds but they'll fight it to protect the old system, which is being rejected across the entire western world at the moment.

[Beet]

You are 100% right, EnglishPete. The whole charade is folding quicker than Badger at a poker game.

So the counter theory is that the CIA used Umbrage to hack the DNC for Trump and pin it on the Russians? That theory is almost as insane as it being some 300 lb. kid in his mom's basement.

The fact that the same CIA that ten years ago fabricated WMDs in Iraq apparently is now infallible is a sign of insanity. Isn't the definition of that word doing the same thing over and over again? They don't have WWIII on their minds but they'll fight it to protect the old system, which is being rejected across the entire western world at the moment.

I protested the war before it started, man. I've been against every insanity in the Western world in the past 15 years, from Iraq hysteria to Obama hysteria. Still waiting for sanity to return. A foreign power attacking American citizens should be where partisan politics stops in the name of it not happening again.

[EnglishPete]

You are 100% right, EnglishPete. The whole charade is folding quicker than Badger at a poker game.

So the counter theory is that the CIA used Umbrage to hack the DNC for Trump and pin it on the Russians? That theory is almost as insane as it being some 300 lb. kid in his mom's basement.

No. I'm pointing out the possibility that the CIA (or some other party with access to 'Umbrage') used Umbrage to hack the DNC in order to pin in on the Russians. The 'big revelations' of the DNC hacks were that the DNC tried to fix the Primary for Hillary and did so in sneaky ways. Frankly that is just confirmation of what many people would suspect about how politics works. I don't think it was a huge shock to many people and I don't imagine that many voters, beyond a small proportion of politics nerds are going to get that animated for that long about the internal management of the Dem primary.

In other words the DNC leaks made no significant difference to the election result, and the people doing them would have had no reasonable expectation that they would make a significant difference.  People were expecting Trump to lose anyway. Its a bit more plausible to suggest the leaks were intended as pretext to ramp up anti-Russian propaganda, a pretext that caused slight embarrassment but which was still ultimately harmless.

[Beet]

You are 100% right, EnglishPete. The whole charade is folding quicker than Badger at a poker game.

So the counter theory is that the CIA used Umbrage to hack the DNC for Trump and pin it on the Russians? That theory is almost as insane as it being some 300 lb. kid in his mom's basement.

No. I'm pointing out the possibility that the CIA (or some other party with access to 'Umbrage') used Umbrage to hack the DNC in order to pin in on the Russians. The 'big revelations' of the DNC hacks were that the DNC tried to fix the Primary for Hillary and did so in sneaky ways. Frankly that is just confirmation of what many people would suspect about how politics works. I don't think it was a huge shock to many people and I don't imagine that many voters, beyond a small proportion of politics nerds are going to get that animated for that long about the internal management of the Dem primary.

In other words the DNC leaks made no significant difference to the election result, and the people doing them would have had no reasonable expectation that they would make a significant difference.  People were expecting Trump to lose anyway. Its a bit more plausible to suggest the leaks were intended as pretext to ramp up anti-Russian propaganda, a pretext that caused slight embarrassment but which was still ultimately harmless.

The DNC hacks first incensed the Bernie wing of the party to the point where every speech between Nelson Rockefeller Cow Palace 1964, then in October the Podesta emails damaged Clinton every day which blunted the impact of the Access Hollywood tape. The cumulative impact clearly flipped the election to Trump. The CIA clearly wanted Clinton. If they were behind it, they would have hacked the RNC, then president Clinton could have used it as a pretext to get the Russians. This alternate story where the CIA got Trump elected, only to go to war with him makes no sense.

[EnglishPete]

You are 100% right, EnglishPete. The whole charade is folding quicker than Badger at a poker game.

So the counter theory is that the CIA used Umbrage to hack the DNC for Trump and pin it on the Russians? That theory is almost as insane as it being some 300 lb. kid in his mom's basement.

The fact that the same CIA that ten years ago fabricated WMDs in Iraq apparently is now infallible is a sign of insanity. Isn't the definition of that word doing the same thing over and over again? They don't have WWIII on their minds but they'll fight it to protect the old system, which is being rejected across the entire western world at the moment.

Exactly. It could be an opportunity to make some anti Russian propaganda whilst having a sideswipe at Trump as a bonus.

[EnglishPete]

You are 100% right, EnglishPete. The whole charade is folding quicker than Badger at a poker game.

So the counter theory is that the CIA used Umbrage to hack the DNC for Trump and pin it on the Russians? That theory is almost as insane as it being some 300 lb. kid in his mom's basement.

No. I'm pointing out the possibility that the CIA (or some other party with access to 'Umbrage') used Umbrage to hack the DNC in order to pin in on the Russians. The 'big revelations' of the DNC hacks were that the DNC tried to fix the Primary for Hillary and did so in sneaky ways. Frankly that is just confirmation of what many people would suspect about how politics works. I don't think it was a huge shock to many people and I don't imagine that many voters, beyond a small proportion of politics nerds are going to get that animated for that long about the internal management of the Dem primary.

In other words the DNC leaks made no significant difference to the election result, and the people doing them would have had no reasonable expectation that they would make a significant difference.  People were expecting Trump to lose anyway. Its a bit more plausible to suggest the leaks were intended as pretext to ramp up anti-Russian propaganda, a pretext that caused slight embarrassment but which was still ultimately harmless.

The DNC hacks first incensed the Bernie wing of the party to the point where every speech between Nelson Rockefeller Cow Palace 1964, then in October the Podesta emails damaged Clinton every day which blunted the impact of the Access Hollywood tape. The cumulative impact clearly flipped the election to Trump. The CIA clearly wanted Clinton. If they were behind it, they would have hacked the RNC, then president Clinton could have used it as a pretext to get the Russians. This alternate story where the CIA got Trump elected, only to go to war with him makes no sense.

The DNC leaks/hacks and the Podesta hacks made a very marginal difference. No one would have expected them to flip the campaign and there's no evidence that they did. It got some politics nerds excited but that's about it, there's no evidence it flipped more than a tiny number of votes.

What I think had a much bigger impact was the project Veritas video revelations about Democrats paying people to incite violence and blame it on Trump. That's a much more graphic presentation of Dem dirsty tricks than anything the various leaks/hacks revealed. That came out at about the same time as the Access Hollywood video and the women's accusations and it was that that the Trump campaign to undercut the Dems credibility and accuse them of dirty tricks.

[Hindsight was 2020]

I can't help but shake the feeling EnglishPete and Eharding are the same person

[Fusionmunster]

Oh god...

Trump supporters are using this to argue the C.I.A was behind the DNC and Podesta hacks. Even though the theory is stupid, it makes Trump even more infallible to them. I am so close to being done with politics because of this idiocy. Hillary was wronged so severely yet Trump supporters are going to turn this around on her. Its so disgusting and disheartening, I'd rather plug my ears and let them do what they want with the country instead of having to put up with this stupidity.    

[Beet]

The Podesta e-mails were far more damaging. For one thing, they caught Clinton saying that she had a "private position and a public position", which, as one questioner pointed out, amounted to being two-faced. She fumbled the answer to the question, and Trump got in a joke about her being not "honest Abe." They also caught Donna Brazile giving debate questions to Clinton, resulting in the former's resignation from CNN. Progressives were incensed over this--I called a Clinton volunteer list (people who'd given up an entire day to help her), this was the week before the election, and one guy told me he wished the Republicans had run Cruz because then he'd be supporting Cruz! Neera Tanden, a Clinton policy guru, couldn't even go on TV after her e-mails were released, in what she called "the worst professional experience of my life."

This Ken Vogel article describes the impact of the Podesta e-mails on Clinton's relationship to the left:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

On the Fight for 15 and TPP:

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On the progressive reaction:

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http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/wikileaks-hilary-clinton-progressives-230009

Imagine you're a jfern type, or even just a swing voter gauging Clinton's honesty on issues like the TPP, taking this in. And Trump mentioned wikileaks from his stump speeches. The impact was devastating. Had she not been running against Trump, such leaks would have caused her to lose in a Dukakis-style landslide, even without Comey.

[ApatheticAustrian]

like i said...it's like living in a world in which watergate succeeded and the culprit was the DNC, while the plumbers have been heroes.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

I think Trump's inner circle is running scared. Carson, Wikileaks, now Pence backing up Carson, all since Trump launched Idiotgate with the tweets about wiretapps. They are desperate to drag the media and the public off the scent. I don't think Trump is smart enough for that, but his personal advisers are, and this reeks of Trump-camp flavored desperation.

And I can't see why, if there was truly nothing there, they could just sit back and let all their enemies waste the next three month screaming in public about non-existent Russian connections. Even Trump's tender ego should be able to take that. He could make weekly speeches that were equal mixes of pleasant sounding nonsense (like his not-SotU) and denouncing his enemies for the ridiculous lies.

I grow more convinced every day that, from the Big Cheeto on down, there really was some sort of back-channel deal with Russia. Maybe about the emails, maybe blackmail, maybe some old or new bribe, maybe even just a plan made in good faith but with terrible optics.  But there's no reason to lie, twist, cover, and do themselves so much damage otherwise. Even if they all are complete idiots.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The Podesta e-mails were far more damaging. For one thing, they caught Clinton saying that she had a "private position and a public position", which, as one questioner pointed out, amounted to being two-faced. She fumbled the answer to the question, and Trump got in a joke about her being not "honest Abe." They also caught Donna Brazile giving debate questions to Clinton, resulting in the former's resignation from CNN. Progressives were incensed over this--I called a Clinton volunteer list (people who'd given up an entire day to help her), this was the week before the election, and one guy told me he wished the Republicans had run Cruz because then he'd be supporting Cruz! Neera Tanden, a Clinton policy guru, couldn't even go on TV after her e-mails were released, in what she called "the worst professional experience of my life."

This Ken Vogel article describes the impact of the Podesta e-mails on Clinton's relationship to the left:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

On the Fight for 15 and TPP:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

On the progressive reaction:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/wikileaks-hilary-clinton-progressives-230009

Imagine you're a jfern type, or even just a swing voter gauging Clinton's honesty on issues like the TPP, taking this in. And Trump mentioned wikileaks from his stump speeches. The impact was devastating. Had she not been running against Trump, such leaks would have caused her to lose in a Dukakis-style landslide, even without Comey.

Well, it was pretty obvious that Hillary was a liar when she made claims like Bernie being against the auto bailout during the debates. But for those not paying as much attention, yes I'm sure the Podesta e-mails did a fair amount of damage. I think it also convinced some Bernie people who were already angry at Hillary to switch from Stein to Trump. The Podesta e-mails did not change my vote, but I was probably a bit of a canary in the coal mine for liberal support of Hillary.

[EnglishPete]

[Hindsight was 2020]

Let me get this straight. You think that the CIA hacked an sabotaged Hillary's campaign in an attempt to frame Russia for it in order to frame Trunp and sabatoge his campaign? Are you high or just incredibly stupid?

[Inmate Trump]

Oh neat, a cartoon to prove your point. You've convinced me, and all it took was Scooby-dooby-doo!

[EnglishPete]

Oh neat, a cartoon to prove your point. You've convinced me, and all it took was Scooby-dooby-doo!

The purpose of the post was not to convince you but to mock you

The whole 'Russia worked with Trump to interfere in the election' narrative is completely falling apart.

There was the breathless reports that US security agencies were so concerned about Trump links to Russia that they were survelling and wiretapping his campaign. After Trump made his accusations on Twitter at the weekend James Comey and James Clapper rushed out to say that there was no such spying and every liberal news outlet exclaimed there was no evidence for it. Well if there was no such spying that suggests that they weren't much concerned about it.

Then we have various reports of people meeting with the Russian ambassador, reports that invariably turn out to be complete nothing burgers.

Finally the one bit of evidence for 'Russian interference for Trump' narrative that actually seemed to have some evidence behind it, the so called 'fingerprints' of Russian hacking it turns out coyukd have easily been faked by the CIA (or possibly by agents of other governments with motives for doing this)

If people still believe this nonsense Russia and Trump worked together to hack the election propaganda narrative after all this evidence has fallen apart then they deserve mockery and I am mocking them.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Oh neat, a cartoon to prove your point. You've convinced me, and all it took was Scooby-dooby-doo!

The purpose of the post was not to convince you but to mock you

The whole 'Russia worked with Trump to interfere in the election' narrative is completely falling apart.

There was the breathless reports that US security agencies were so concerned about Trump links to Russia that they were survelling and wiretapping his campaign. After Trump made his accusations on Twitter at the weekend James Comey and James Clapper rushed out to say that there was no such spying and every liberal news outlet exclaimed there was no evidence for it. Well if there was no such spying that suggests that they weren't much concerned about it.

Then we have various reports of people meeting with the Russian ambassador, reports that invariably turn out to be complete nothing burgers.

Finally the one bit of evidence for 'Russian interference for Trump' narrative that actually seemed to have some evidence behind it, the so called 'fingerprints' of Russian hacking it turns out coyukd have easily been faked by the CIA (or possibly by agents of other governments with motives for doing this)

If people still believe this nonsense Russia and Trump worked together to hack the election propaganda narrative after all this evidence has fallen apart then they deserve mockery and I am mocking them.

Again are you high or stupid because the argument the CAiA sabatoged Hillary in order to sabatoge Trump is moronic an should be mocked

[ApatheticAustrian]

i am always glad that whenever you scratch on the surface of a "oh so patriotic and loyal nationalist"-neo-right-winger form the "ANTI-GLOBALIST"-bunch you find a russian apologist.

[Fusionmunster]

I don't know what's worse, the C.I.A hacking everything or the Trump supporters who think it vindicates Trump on Russia.

Seriously, anyone who thinks the C.I.A hacked and leaked info from the Clinton campaign and the DNC in order to frame Trump need to get their heads examined.

[EnglishPete]

I don't know what's worse, the C.I.A hacking everything or the Trump supporters who think it vindicates Trump on Russia.

Seriously, anyone who thinks the C.I.A hacked and leaked info from the Clinton campaign and the DNC in order to frame Trump need to get their heads examined.

The primary target would have been Russia. Being able to get Trump as a secondary target was  bonus.

[EnglishPete]

Oh neat, a cartoon to prove your point. You've convinced me, and all it took was Scooby-dooby-doo!

The purpose of the post was not to convince you but to mock you

The whole 'Russia worked with Trump to interfere in the election' narrative is completely falling apart.

There was the breathless reports that US security agencies were so concerned about Trump links to Russia that they were survelling and wiretapping his campaign. After Trump made his accusations on Twitter at the weekend James Comey and James Clapper rushed out to say that there was no such spying and every liberal news outlet exclaimed there was no evidence for it. Well if there was no such spying that suggests that they weren't much concerned about it.

Then we have various reports of people meeting with the Russian ambassador, reports that invariably turn out to be complete nothing burgers.

Finally the one bit of evidence for 'Russian interference for Trump' narrative that actually seemed to have some evidence behind it, the so called 'fingerprints' of Russian hacking it turns out coyukd have easily been faked by the CIA (or possibly by agents of other governments with motives for doing this)

If people still believe this nonsense Russia and Trump worked together to hack the election propaganda narrative after all this evidence has fallen apart then they deserve mockery and I am mocking them.

Again are you high or stupid because the argument the CAiA sabatoged Hillary in order to sabatoge Trump is moronic an should be mocked

[Hermit For Peace]

I think Trump's inner circle is running scared. Carson, Wikileaks, now Pence backing up Carson, all since Trump launched Idiotgate with the tweets about wiretapps. They are desperate to drag the media and the public off the scent. I don't think Trump is smart enough for that, but his personal advisers are, and this reeks of Trump-camp flavored desperation.

And I can't see why, if there was truly nothing there, they could just sit back and let all their enemies waste the next three month screaming in public about non-existent Russian connections. Even Trump's tender ego should be able to take that. He could make weekly speeches that were equal mixes of pleasant sounding nonsense (like his not-SotU) and denouncing his enemies for the ridiculous lies.

I grow more convinced every day that, from the Big Cheeto on down, there really was some sort of back-channel deal with Russia. Maybe about the emails, maybe blackmail, maybe some old or new bribe, maybe even just a plan made in good faith but with terrible optics.  But there's no reason to lie, twist, cover, and do themselves so much damage otherwise. Even if they all are complete idiots.

This is the bottom line. Anyone who wants to conveniently overlook this behavior is blind.

[Fusionmunster]

I don't know what's worse, the C.I.A hacking everything or the Trump supporters who think it vindicates Trump on Russia.

Seriously, anyone who thinks the C.I.A hacked and leaked info from the Clinton campaign and the DNC in order to frame Trump need to get their heads examined.

The primary target would have been Russia. Being able to get Trump as a secondary target was  bonus.

That makes no sense. In order to target Russia and Trump, they hacked and leaked info from the Clinton Campaign and the DNC in order to pin blame on the Russians? Its a stupid theory.

[Hindsight was 2020]

I don't know what's worse, the C.I.A hacking everything or the Trump supporters who think it vindicates Trump on Russia.

Seriously, anyone who thinks the C.I.A hacked and leaked info from the Clinton campaign and the DNC in order to frame Trump need to get their heads examined.

The primary target would have been Russia. Being able to get Trump as a secondary target was  bonus.

That makes no sense. In order to target Russia and Trump, they hacked and leaked info from the Clinton Campaign and the DNC in order to pin blame on the Russians? Its a stupid theory.

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