Puerto Rico status referendum - June 11

[Dr. Arch]

It will pass.

[Dr. Arch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2017

I didn't see a thread on this. Puerto Ricans are voting again for their status. Unlike previous votes, there will be no option maintaining the commonwealth status the island has had for decades. In the 2012 referendum (concurrent with the US presidential election and the PR Governor election), 54% of voters chose to change their status; 61.6% of these voters chose statehood. But 27% of ballots in that referendum were blank.

If the referendum goes with statehood, the Puerto Rico government is also set to pass a bill to select the date for elections that will choose the new senators and congressmen. I'm not sure how much can happen with a GOP congress and president, but it would be hard to argue against the will of a United States territory (assuming statehood passes).

I do believe the Republican platform supports statehood.

That will go out the window when the state sends 2 Democratic Senators and 5 Democratic Congressmen to Washington. Though the state could be crafty and send one GOP Senator to make it a politically neutral act. Even so, I don't see Trump's party wanting to give any improved status to a mostly nonwhite area.

Hope it passes, though

Puerto Rico is majority White, more so than the rest of Latin America. Just because they're of Hispanic Ethnicity doesn't mean they're not mostly White. In fact, Puerto Rico has quite a bit of segregation and integrated cultural racism. The majority of Puerto Rico is of Spanish descent. The native Arawakan tribe of Tainos was nearly entirely extinguished by the colonizers in the 15th and 16th centuries.

However, yes, Republicans are despised there. Puerto Rican voters love the Democratic establishment à la Obama and HRC. I would say that PR would behave like a NM+South Florida hybrid in US politics. Maybe one GOP seat can be gerrymandered, but PR has only had one Republican governor in decades, and he was ousted on his first term.

[Dr. Arch]

Independence! Statehood is a trash right-wing idea.

Barring some extreme US-inflicted humanitarian crisis, Puerto Ricans will not even consider independence. The culture has become highly Americanized, and English has been gaining an increased role in the island as a transactional language for the youngest generations.

[Dr. Arch]

Puerto Rico isn't becoming a state until they fix their financial mess.

And on an interesting note Puerto Rico has had as many republican governors over the past twenty years as WV

No, most of the members from both of the mainstream parties are Democrats. The most right wing of the two is more religiously conservative, but both of them are essentially different wings of the D party, with few exceptions.

Gov. Alejandro Javier García Padilla    Puerto Rico    (2013 - 2017 )
   PDP of Puerto Rico
Gov. Luis G. Fortuño    Puerto Rico    (2009 - 2013 )
   Republican
Gov. Anibal Acevedo Vilá    Puerto Rico    (2005 - 2009 )
   Democrat
Gov. Sila M. Calderon    Puerto Rico    (2001 - 2005 )
   Popular Democrat
Gov. Pedro Rossello    Puerto Rico    (1993 - 2001 )
   New Progressive Party
Gov. Carlos Romero-Barcelo    Puerto Rico    (1977 - 1985 )
   New Progressive Party
Gov. Rafael Hernandez-Colon    Puerto Rico    (1973 - 1977 )
(1985 - 1993 )
   Popular Democrat
Gov. Luis A. Ferre    Puerto Rico    (1969 - 1973 )
   New Progressive Party
Gov. Roberto Sanchez-Vilella    Puerto Rico    (1965 - 1969 )
   Popular Democrat

[Dr. Arch]

Puerto Rico isn't becoming a state until they fix their financial mess.

And on an interesting note Puerto Rico has had as many republican governors over the past twenty years as WV

No, most of the members from both of the mainstream parties are Democrats. The most right wing of the two is more religiously conservative, but both of them are essentially different wings of the D party, with few exceptions.

Gov. Alejandro Javier García Padilla    Puerto Rico    (2013 - 2017 )
   PDP of Puerto Rico
Gov. Luis G. Fortuño    Puerto Rico    (2009 - 2013 )
   Republican
Gov. Anibal Acevedo Vilá    Puerto Rico    (2005 - 2009 )
   Democrat
Gov. Sila M. Calderon    Puerto Rico    (2001 - 2005 )
   Popular Democrat
Gov. Pedro Rossello    Puerto Rico    (1993 - 2001 )
   New Progressive Party
Gov. Carlos Romero-Barcelo    Puerto Rico    (1977 - 1985 )
   New Progressive Party
Gov. Rafael Hernandez-Colon    Puerto Rico    (1973 - 1977 )
(1985 - 1993 )
   Popular Democrat
Gov. Luis A. Ferre    Puerto Rico    (1969 - 1973 )
   New Progressive Party
Gov. Roberto Sanchez-Vilella    Puerto Rico    (1965 - 1969 )
   Popular Democrat

You're saying the same thing. West Virginia has only had one Republican governor in the last twenty years.

^yup.

Also Luis Ferre was a republican.

Oh, just re-read it. Yeah, you're saying what I said earlier. Sorry about that. Posting while on a bus can be distracting.

[Dr. Arch]

Someone everyone here should watch on Puerto Rico and its current fiscal issues:

https://www.facebook.com/perolike/videos/1171383482949041/

Note: I don't condone the idea that PR's status should be decided on the fiscally detrimental effects of its rigged market relations with the mainland. Puerto Rico should be given statehood because it is big enough, population-wise, and because its citizens are natural-born Americans who, overall, want statehood. There should not be a lesser class of American citizens depending on what U.S. soil they're standing on. It's as simple as that.

[Dr. Arch]

Someone everyone here should watch on Puerto Rico and its current fiscal issues:

https://www.facebook.com/perolike/videos/1171383482949041/

Note: I don't condone the idea that PR's status should be decided on the fiscally detrimental effects of its rigged market relations with the mainland. Puerto Rico should be given statehood because it is big enough, population-wise, and because its citizens are natural-born Americans who, overall, want statehood. There should not be a lesser class of American citizens depending on what U.S. soil they're standing on. It's as simple as that.

The jones act is a real issue for inflated prices, but it's a drop in the bucket for their problems. This is a beautiful place with no federal income tax, it should do far better. Their problems are not the jones act, their problems are horrific mismanagement and rampant corruption.

The Jones act is a horrifically large part of the problem. Yes, there is administrative mismanagement and corruption, but that is all over many states as well.

Imagine having to pay $7 for a gallon of milk (not kidding here) or much more for gas, etc. because of it. It just dampers the entire flow of the economy from the bottom up.

Not paying Federal taxes is actually hindering the island's economy because Puerto Rico is not considered a part of the general budget, as the states are, which means it can't fully benefit from federal funds. (Think of states that receive more than they pay, e.g. Alabama).

There is also the fact that a great number of mega chains, like Walmart and Walgreen's, have put all the local small businesses out of business, which leaves few other options from where residents can get their products. What does this mean? It means that almost all of the profit made by these companies does not circulate in the local economy, but is rather exported as if it were foreign capital back to the mainland. This also slows down the economy because it's like poking a hole in a bag of sand that's almost out of sand to begin with.

[Dr. Arch]

Someone everyone here should watch on Puerto Rico and its current fiscal issues:

https://www.facebook.com/perolike/videos/1171383482949041/

Note: I don't condone the idea that PR's status should be decided on the fiscally detrimental effects of its rigged market relations with the mainland. Puerto Rico should be given statehood because it is big enough, population-wise, and because its citizens are natural-born Americans who, overall, want statehood. There should not be a lesser class of American citizens depending on what U.S. soil they're standing on. It's as simple as that.

The jones act is a real issue for inflated prices, but it's a drop in the bucket for their problems. This is a beautiful place with no federal income tax, it should do far better. Their problems are not the jones act, their problems are horrific mismanagement and rampant corruption.

The Jones act is a horrifically large part of the problem. Yes, there is administrative mismanagement and corruption, but that is all over many states as well.

Not paying Federal taxes is actually hindering the island's economy because Puerto Rico is not considered a part of the general budget, as the states are, which means it can't fully benefit from federal funds. (Think of states that receive more than they pay, e.g. Alabama).

Imagine having to pay $7 for a gallon of milk (not kidding here) or much more for gas, etc. because of it. It just dampers the entire flow of the economy from the bottom up.

There is also the fact that a great number of mega chains, like Walmart and Walgreen's, have put all the local small businesses out of business, which leaves few other options from where residents can get their products. What does this mean? It means that almost all of the profit made by these companies does not circulate in the local economy, but is rather exported as if it were foreign capital back to the mainland. This also slows down the economy because it's like poking a hole in a bag of sand that's almost out of sand to begin with.

Part of the 7$ for milk isn't the jones act, it's the 11% sales tax.

Islands are more expensive, hawaii deals with the jones act and isn't Defaulting on its debt

They are so inept they can't collect almost half of their taxes, while overpaying public employees and continuing to issue bonds

11% sales tax for $7 is just 77 cents; come on now.

Yes, islands are more expensive, but Hawai'i is a state so you can't possibly make a fair comparison.

They have no other option but to issue bonds since they can't do anything to restructure or renegotiate the debt. They can't even default. They could fire every single employee, and it wouldn't change a thing other than destroying whatever is left of the economy.

[Dr. Arch]

Someone everyone here should watch on Puerto Rico and its current fiscal issues:

https://www.facebook.com/perolike/videos/1171383482949041/

Note: I don't condone the idea that PR's status should be decided on the fiscally detrimental effects of its rigged market relations with the mainland. Puerto Rico should be given statehood because it is big enough, population-wise, and because its citizens are natural-born Americans who, overall, want statehood. There should not be a lesser class of American citizens depending on what U.S. soil they're standing on. It's as simple as that.

The jones act is a real issue for inflated prices, but it's a drop in the bucket for their problems. This is a beautiful place with no federal income tax, it should do far better. Their problems are not the jones act, their problems are horrific mismanagement and rampant corruption.

The Jones act is a horrifically large part of the problem. Yes, there is administrative mismanagement and corruption, but that is all over many states as well.

Not paying Federal taxes is actually hindering the island's economy because Puerto Rico is not considered a part of the general budget, as the states are, which means it can't fully benefit from federal funds. (Think of states that receive more than they pay, e.g. Alabama).

Imagine having to pay $7 for a gallon of milk (not kidding here) or much more for gas, etc. because of it. It just dampers the entire flow of the economy from the bottom up.

There is also the fact that a great number of mega chains, like Walmart and Walgreen's, have put all the local small businesses out of business, which leaves few other options from where residents can get their products. What does this mean? It means that almost all of the profit made by these companies does not circulate in the local economy, but is rather exported as if it were foreign capital back to the mainland. This also slows down the economy because it's like poking a hole in a bag of sand that's almost out of sand to begin with.

Part of the 7$ for milk isn't the jones act, it's the 11% sales tax.

Islands are more expensive, hawaii deals with the jones act and isn't Defaulting on its debt

They are so inept they can't collect almost half of their taxes, while overpaying public employees and continuing to issue bonds

11% sales tax for $7 is just a little over 7 cents; come on now.

Yes, islands are more expensive, but Hawai'i is a state so you can't possibly make a fair comparison.

They have no other option but to issue bonds since they can't do anything to restructure or renegotiate the debt. They can't even default. They could fire every single employee, and it wouldn't change a thing other than destroying whatever is left of the economy.

11% sales tax on 7 dollars is 77 cents.
Yes milk is expensive, it's only 60 cents cheaper in the Virgin Islands, who doesn't have a jones act requirement...

And they have tons of options on their debt... Nothing is stopping Puerto Rico from restructuring their debt. Nothing. In fact the federal government had to force a committee to do it for them (they did not need federal permission to restructure their debt)
Nothing is stopping Puerto Rico from renegotiating their debt (they did it with most loans in 2014, but of course they did it by issuing more bonds)

You also say they cannot default, Odd they've defaulted twice on debt (2014, 2016).

The problem is Puerto Rico's solution to their fiscal woes has been to borrow more money and now they have no cash to pay the bills.

Yes on the taxes, fixed the number above.

Your argument for denying statehood to PR is nil to begin with anyways. American citizens on American soil that is not D.C. want statehood. They should get it. If we're going to start precluding statehood to fiscal prosperity, then we should start jettisoning fiscally-challenged states from the union. Do we start with Kansas?

[Dr. Arch]

Puerto Rico, if it votes for statehood, should be accepted as our 51st state. Full stop. I think there are fair arguments against statehood for D.C. and some of the smaller Pacific territories, primarily that we already have too many tiny states who wield outsized influence in the Senate over more populous ones

I can understand some arguments against statehood for DC but I am 100% behind 2 Senators/1 Rep for the district. If they can't get that, which would take a Constitutional amendment, then statehood is the only option and it shouldn't be denied. Although, reasonable levels of autonomy for DC is also an issue statehood would solve. Right now, Congress meddles far too much in their business.

As for the various territories - that is a good point, and I would argue that maybe they deserve representation as a whole, meaning 2 Senators / 1 Rep to represent all the territories. I'm unsure if Puerto Rico should be lumped in together with them, but looking at the combined population of the other territories - Roughly ~375,000 going by Wikipedia, I can see an argument for it at least.

Either way, I still think something should be done. I don't think anyone in America should be deprived of representation like this.

Certainly. Puerto Rico has more citizens than a good number of states and more than 4 states combined if you choose the right ones. There is no need to break down or merge any other states to annex PR either. Recognize what is long due and be done with it.

[Dr. Arch]

Someone everyone here should watch on Puerto Rico and its current fiscal issues:

https://www.facebook.com/perolike/videos/1171383482949041/

Note: I don't condone the idea that PR's status should be decided on the fiscally detrimental effects of its rigged market relations with the mainland. Puerto Rico should be given statehood because it is big enough, population-wise, and because its citizens are natural-born Americans who, overall, want statehood. There should not be a lesser class of American citizens depending on what U.S. soil they're standing on. It's as simple as that.

The jones act is a real issue for inflated prices, but it's a drop in the bucket for their problems. This is a beautiful place with no federal income tax, it should do far better. Their problems are not the jones act, their problems are horrific mismanagement and rampant corruption.

The Jones act is a horrifically large part of the problem. Yes, there is administrative mismanagement and corruption, but that is all over many states as well.

Not paying Federal taxes is actually hindering the island's economy because Puerto Rico is not considered a part of the general budget, as the states are, which means it can't fully benefit from federal funds. (Think of states that receive more than they pay, e.g. Alabama).

Imagine having to pay $7 for a gallon of milk (not kidding here) or much more for gas, etc. because of it. It just dampers the entire flow of the economy from the bottom up.

There is also the fact that a great number of mega chains, like Walmart and Walgreen's, have put all the local small businesses out of business, which leaves few other options from where residents can get their products. What does this mean? It means that almost all of the profit made by these companies does not circulate in the local economy, but is rather exported as if it were foreign capital back to the mainland. This also slows down the economy because it's like poking a hole in a bag of sand that's almost out of sand to begin with.

Part of the 7$ for milk isn't the jones act, it's the 11% sales tax.

Islands are more expensive, hawaii deals with the jones act and isn't Defaulting on its debt

They are so inept they can't collect almost half of their taxes, while overpaying public employees and continuing to issue bonds

11% sales tax for $7 is just a little over 7 cents; come on now.

Yes, islands are more expensive, but Hawai'i is a state so you can't possibly make a fair comparison.

They have no other option but to issue bonds since they can't do anything to restructure or renegotiate the debt. They can't even default. They could fire every single employee, and it wouldn't change a thing other than destroying whatever is left of the economy.

11% sales tax on 7 dollars is 77 cents.
Yes milk is expensive, it's only 60 cents cheaper in the Virgin Islands, who doesn't have a jones act requirement...

And they have tons of options on their debt... Nothing is stopping Puerto Rico from restructuring their debt. Nothing. In fact the federal government had to force a committee to do it for them (they did not need federal permission to restructure their debt)
Nothing is stopping Puerto Rico from renegotiating their debt (they did it with most loans in 2014, but of course they did it by issuing more bonds)

You also say they cannot default, Odd they've defaulted twice on debt (2014, 2016).

The problem is Puerto Rico's solution to their fiscal woes has been to borrow more money and now they have no cash to pay the bills.

Yes on the taxes, fixed the number above.

Your argument for denying statehood to PR is nil to begin with anyways. American citizens on American soil that is not D.C. want statehood. They should get it. If we're going to start precluding statehood to fiscal prosperity, then we should start jettisoning fiscally-challenged states from the union. Do we start with Kansas?

I think we as a country cannot afford to take on PR as a state in their current situation, they have to fix their economy first. We'd be adding a state that would be in the worst financial state of any state in US history.

And boy, false equivalence hard core on your second point.

Kansas (and others looking at you Illinois) are already states kicking a state out is far different than allowing a state in.

False equivalence my ass. We're American citizens and denying statehood is practically the same as kicking out a state from the union and making it a commonwealth territory again with no representation. One of the richest empires in the history of mankind can certainly "afford" to correct such a vile political state in which its citizens live. The economy argument is stupid, quite frankly. The above mentioned reasons are enough, period.

[Dr. Arch]

Someone everyone here should watch on Puerto Rico and its current fiscal issues:

https://www.facebook.com/perolike/videos/1171383482949041/

Note: I don't condone the idea that PR's status should be decided on the fiscally detrimental effects of its rigged market relations with the mainland. Puerto Rico should be given statehood because it is big enough, population-wise, and because its citizens are natural-born Americans who, overall, want statehood. There should not be a lesser class of American citizens depending on what U.S. soil they're standing on. It's as simple as that.

The jones act is a real issue for inflated prices, but it's a drop in the bucket for their problems. This is a beautiful place with no federal income tax, it should do far better. Their problems are not the jones act, their problems are horrific mismanagement and rampant corruption.

The Jones act is a horrifically large part of the problem. Yes, there is administrative mismanagement and corruption, but that is all over many states as well.

Not paying Federal taxes is actually hindering the island's economy because Puerto Rico is not considered a part of the general budget, as the states are, which means it can't fully benefit from federal funds. (Think of states that receive more than they pay, e.g. Alabama).

Imagine having to pay $7 for a gallon of milk (not kidding here) or much more for gas, etc. because of it. It just dampers the entire flow of the economy from the bottom up.

There is also the fact that a great number of mega chains, like Walmart and Walgreen's, have put all the local small businesses out of business, which leaves few other options from where residents can get their products. What does this mean? It means that almost all of the profit made by these companies does not circulate in the local economy, but is rather exported as if it were foreign capital back to the mainland. This also slows down the economy because it's like poking a hole in a bag of sand that's almost out of sand to begin with.

Part of the 7$ for milk isn't the jones act, it's the 11% sales tax.

Islands are more expensive, hawaii deals with the jones act and isn't Defaulting on its debt

They are so inept they can't collect almost half of their taxes, while overpaying public employees and continuing to issue bonds

11% sales tax for $7 is just a little over 7 cents; come on now.

Yes, islands are more expensive, but Hawai'i is a state so you can't possibly make a fair comparison.

They have no other option but to issue bonds since they can't do anything to restructure or renegotiate the debt. They can't even default. They could fire every single employee, and it wouldn't change a thing other than destroying whatever is left of the economy.

11% sales tax on 7 dollars is 77 cents.
Yes milk is expensive, it's only 60 cents cheaper in the Virgin Islands, who doesn't have a jones act requirement...

And they have tons of options on their debt... Nothing is stopping Puerto Rico from restructuring their debt. Nothing. In fact the federal government had to force a committee to do it for them (they did not need federal permission to restructure their debt)
Nothing is stopping Puerto Rico from renegotiating their debt (they did it with most loans in 2014, but of course they did it by issuing more bonds)

You also say they cannot default, Odd they've defaulted twice on debt (2014, 2016).

The problem is Puerto Rico's solution to their fiscal woes has been to borrow more money and now they have no cash to pay the bills.

Yes on the taxes, fixed the number above.

Your argument for denying statehood to PR is nil to begin with anyways. American citizens on American soil that is not D.C. want statehood. They should get it. If we're going to start precluding statehood to fiscal prosperity, then we should start jettisoning fiscally-challenged states from the union. Do we start with Kansas?

I think we as a country cannot afford to take on PR as a state in their current situation, they have to fix their economy first. We'd be adding a state that would be in the worst financial state of any state in US history.

And boy, false equivalence hard core on your second point.

Kansas (and others looking at you Illinois) are already states kicking a state out is far different than allowing a state in.

False equivalence my ass. We're American citizens and denying statehood is practically the same as kicking out a state from the union and making it a commonwealth territory again with no representation. One of the richest empires in the history of mankind can certainly "afford" to correct such a vile political state in which its citizens live. The economy argument is stupid, quite frankly. The above mentioned reasons are enough, period.

Not even close to the same thing. Not even close.

I hate to break it to you but we are not one of the richest empires in the history of mankind, and aren't even in as good fiscal shape as we were 25 years ago.

How can we correct it? Bail out Puerto Rico for 100 billion dollars? Because we aren't trillions in debt with no end in sight? A federal bailout of Puerto Rico would hurt the federal debt rating, while creating an obscene precedent.

And a part that's missing in this whole argument is adding Puerto Rico as a state makes them subject to federal income tax, something that isn't going to make anything in that economy better.

You can pander all you want about what is just, and that's a nice argument, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. Puerto Rico needs to get their debt under control, it's no different than what the EU demands of their members. The worst part of it is Puerto Rico is showing no signs of doing it. You and other posters have posted a lot of false statements about the debt problems in Puerto Rico, and then jump back to more qualitative arguments, that's perfectly fine, but Puerto Rico is bankrupt, they don't have cash on hand to make basic payments and adding them just means tax payers who've never been to Puerto Rico have to pay to fix it.

Let me posit this question, give me a non-political benefit to the US admitting Puerto Rico as a state?

No one is asking for a bailout in this thread. Stop conflating different topics together. You want a non-political reason to justify solving a political problem? You don't need any. But, just in case, here are some non-economic reasons:

1) American citizens fighting wars, yet receiving no representation
2) American citizens paying for SS and Medicare, yet not benefiting as any other citizen in a state (no access to SSI for instance)
3) American citizens having no voice in the federal government even though they must abide fully by it
4) American citizens wanting to be a part of the union despite all this and still being stonewalled
5) American citizens living without full access to the benefits of the federal government

It is, in essence, a humanitarian crisis the US has had the privilege to ignore because of its standing in the world. However, this can't go on.

[Dr. Arch]

Giving PR Statehood would give it all the economic benefits of statehood, including having all US laws apply there. It's in the situation it's in because of certain loopholes in existing laws that mean that they don't apply to Puerto Rico.

The only benefit would be allowing them to give bankruptcy protection to their utilities, which would help them, but won't help the revenue fund.

They'd lose their edge with bonds, they'd lose their no federal income tax edge too.

It's not an edge. I already explained that earlier.

[Dr. Arch]

Giving PR Statehood would give it all the economic benefits of statehood, including having all US laws apply there. It's in the situation it's in because of certain loopholes in existing laws that mean that they don't apply to Puerto Rico.

The only benefit would be allowing them to give bankruptcy protection to their utilities, which would help them, but won't help the revenue fund.

They'd lose their edge with bonds, they'd lose their no federal income tax edge too.

It's not an edge. I already explained that earlier.

Your explaination wasn't correct. Zero federal income tax is absolutely an edge from an economic standpoint

It is absolutely not an edge when you would receive more than what you pay due to the current fiscal situation, both the individual taxpayer through credits/refunds and the presumed state of PR in infrastructure and assistance directly through the Federal budget and all other qualified Federal programs from which it currently does not and cannot benefit.

[Dr. Arch]

I'd support Puerto Rico-VI, DC, and combined Pacific state. If the Republicans want the State of Jefferson, Florida Panhandle, or upstate New York, that would be fine too.

I absolutely hate it when the train of thought goes like "there has to be some sort of "political tradeoff" for the basic recognition and fair treatment of other American citizens."

[Dr. Arch]

So, I would like to fill everyone in on some events that are happening in Puerto Rico right now and the current mood (after talking to my family for a while). The Joint Finance Committee that congress instated wants to push an agenda of extreme austerity, cutting $500M from the University of Puerto Rico, reducing all health programs for the elderly, and cutting cash from infrastructure maintenance (an already crumbling one, mind you).

The Committee has taken all fiscal power away from the local government, which means that the local government cannot pass any budget or financial bills without its approval. The current governor has refused to follow their "recommendations" given that they would pretty much destroy whatever is left of the economy.

People used to be divided on the Committee, thinking it would help put things back on track, but a financial gridlock has taken place between the local government and the unelected members of the Committee who are not accountable, in any way, to the public.

People are pissed, really pissed, and things are now exponentially escalating. Even those who supported statehood, like my parents, are livid because the U.S. failed to give Puerto Rico the power to either restructure its debts or declare bankruptcy. Instead, they got this Committee that couldn't care less about what happens to the general public.

Now, what this does is that it polarizes the dialogue on statehood. While I initially thought statehood would easily pass in this referendum, I don't think that's a given anymore given how things are changing and escalating.

It is now not off the table that Puerto Rico might end up distancing itself from the United States, with a slight change that they might vote for Independence. For a vote to become a freely associated country (no longer forfeiting sovereignty) to pass, the metro area would have to vote sharply for statehood, while the rest of the island goes for free association by about a 10 point margin.

A vote for Independence could very narrowly pass if the metro area also grows disillusioned and doesn't turn out or barely votes for statehood, while the rest of the island swings heavily for it.

What I'm saying is that things are getting murkier and the Committee is not helping the case for statehood because they stand as a symbol that says that the U.S. just doesn't care about the island or its inhabitants anymore.

[Dr. Arch]

Thanks for the update Arch!

Are there any early indications from the tea leaves of Civil Society in terms of how non-political organizations are positioning themselves on statehood vs independence?

(Labor Unions, Student Organizations, faith-based organizations, small business associations, etc....)

Just curious what the respective coalitions look like and how they are positioning themselves on this issue, which will likely be the most important electoral decision in the history of the Island, from a long-term perspective.

That's a good question! Students Orgs are pretty much divided on the status, but there's a fair deal of them that are now full-throttled Independence advocates (something that was only expected of the Puerto Rican version of the 'hippie' class just several years ago). It seems that things are becoming polarized, and nobody really wants the middle ground anymore.

Faith-based organizations are almost 100% statehood advocates, as the statehood party (PNP) is almost entirely voiced by protestant social conservatives. The Catholic church can go either way depending on the region.

Labor organizations (unions et al.) are more varied. I can't really tell where they're all going. Truckers are pro-statehood for the most part, teachers are either for free association or independence, for the most part. Coalitions can go either way here.

Puerto Rico's voting patterns are extremely swingy and almost always anti-status quo. The next couple of months will be crucial in determining the June vote.

I would also point out that the Comisión Estatal de Elecciones (the Elections Commission) has named this as the "Plebiscite on Decolonization" rather than a "Status Referendum." I think the distinction is important here because it's indicative of how the dialogue is shaping up and how people are viewing this referendum coming into it.

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States for quite a bit now.

The current "Freely-Associated State" or "Commonwealth" status was originally intended to be a transitory affiliation, which is why it has been so detrimental in the long run.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

True. And you've been Puerto Rican all this time?

Yeah? haha. It's not like something like that is subject to change Why do you ask?

[Dr. Arch]

I find this amazing and I would support it. I feel that Puerto Rico deserves statehood status by now. When would they officially become a state of the U.S.? I think we have an obligation to assist people in need, regardless of politics.

That is entirely dependent on Congress. It could be the next day after the vote if they wanted it so.

Hey Arch, and really? I doubt they will act on it that quickly.

Heya and yes. Congress could do it right now and could have done it over the last 60 years or so if they would have wanted to. The ability to determine Puerto Rico's political status has rested solely within the Congress of the United States.

This referendum is a democratic exercise to see where the will of the residents of Puerto Rico stands at this time and to push the U.S. government to act on it.

Exactly. And according to the previous referendum in 2012, I believe that they had voted for statehood over independence. They probably could do it as soon as possible, but I think it is more of a tedious process and would not be completed instantaneously.

There were questions over the validity of the last referendum because it was poorly designed, which is why this one is taking place. However, I don't think Congress will act on this one either, unless the situation worsens as it's looking like it will.

They can't keep ignoring Puerto Rico forever. It's one of the few remaining colonies in the modern political world.

True. And you've been Puerto Rican all this time?

Yeah? haha. It's not like something like that is subject to change Why do you ask?

Never knew that. I guess now we can be friends right?

Why not?

[Dr. Arch]

Lol what is happening in this thread?

You can skip the social stuff and go right for the content above.

[Dr. Arch]

So.... the winds of change are dramatically shifting within Puerto Rico, and much of this thread has been devoted from the perspective of "The Colonizer", basically with only a very limited Puerto Rican voice (Arch---- I love you mate!!!)....

While we have Democratic/Republican/Libertarian/"Indepenent" avatars alike sitting here as keyboard warriors discussing items such as what it will mean for US Senate/House seats, the "cost-benefit analysis" of Puerto Rican Statehood and "bailouts", we have a huge issue that has been occurring for well over a decade on an involuntary internal migration of US Citizens, perhaps the largest over the past 20 years, leaving to the Mainland, simply because political leaders of both the Republican and Democratic Party haven't appeared to give a s**t, to address a real issue in what would actually be one of the larger states in the Union in terms of population.

Although many might say, "the choice has always been up to the Citizens of the Comnonwealth", "they had a choice to vote many times", the ugly reality is that ever since 1898 "Remember the Maine", there has been a dramatic imbalance of power with Puerto Rico, which was essentially the first "Colony" in American History....

This relationship has been fine and dandy for decades, from the perspective of the Mainlanders....

Why did so many Puerto Ricans move to cities like New York, Philadelphia, Hartford, West Chicago, and so many other cities throughout the Eastern Seaboard and even into the Midwest back in the '50s/'60s?

Why did MNCs (Tech & Big Pharma) set up show in Puerto Rico in the early '90s?

Anyone that want to claim that the relationship between Puerto Rico and the US Government has ever been anything approaching an equal relationship, is apparently smoking some hardcore White Powder...

So now that the successors to the Spanish colonists have had their centurary long whirl with the Island, is it any wonder that the Independence Movement is stronger than it has ever been?

Not my choice, not my vote, the people of Puerto Rico will decide their own destiny....

Yes, most of that migration is pseudo-involuntary, particularly for the younger and more educated population who have extremely limited opportunities due to a stagnating economy and lack of appropriate job opportunities. Puerto Rico has one of the best public higher education systems, but its graduates cannot stay and work with the skills they acquire.

I would like to point out that the failing economy has created a feedback loop among the older generation as well. They were employed throughout their entire lives in Puerto Rico, but now they have great benefits in the form of SS + savings + retirement plans. However, they refuse to stay and move to FL or GA or TX, taking all of their savings out of the local economy, which creates further stagnation. It's quite a problem when you have one of the generations with the most potential (younger) and one of the generations with the most capital (oldest) both flee.

Yes, Puerto Ricans, even as American citizens, can only voice what they want and are not free to choose their political status, their imports/exports, and (now) their financial management either. The current status has to end because, unlike the states who have a symbiotic relationship with the U.S. government, Puerto Rico has a parasitic one. Many would say that PR is the parasite, but that is simply not the case. Yes, the island gets several billion in federal cash, but cannot make up for the lost sovereignty, fiscal control, or escaping capital.

Puerto Ricans moved to those cities in the 50's because of the development of the island. In those times, Puerto Rico was incredibly underdeveloped (think near Haiti levels). With the change in the political relationship with the United States, Puerto Rico was able to industrialize incredibly quickly and develop a strong infrastructure. However, it hit a wall when that relationship reached its limit, and it hasn't been able to move forward any further because of it. A good number of them came back after the island developed.

Tech & Big Pharma set up in the island because it was a tax-free haven. For a while, the government allowed these companies to operate without paying a dime of taxes. It was all part of the strategy to "stimulate" the economy back then. However, they're now practicing corporate welfare, and Puerto Rico has not been able to reap the taxes it was hoping to after that agreement ended.

While I still think Independence is a long shot, a distancing is completely on the table. Statehood can still carry on though. A lot of Puerto Rican culture has Americanized, and mostly everyone has gotten used to it. Still, the mistreatment can change everyone's minds in a moment's notice (PRexit).

[Dr. Arch]

I spent almost an hour drafting a long and detailed post.... but I'll leave it simply at your bolded comments and a few brief words (Which I'm not very good at...   )

Now that I have ended a 20 year career working for multiple suppliers for Hewlett-Packard I feel that I can speak freely without fear of retribution or retaliation.

HP made a deliberate business decision to relocate final assembly operations in their Inkjet Business Unit (IJBU), in order to deliberately exploit corporate tax loop-holes, the lack of a Federal Minimum Wage on the Island (At that time), while they relocated manufacturing jobs from the mainland to the Island, in order to centralize all of their Americas production/manufacturing operations to feed the pockets of the stockholders on Wall Street.

I was there at their largest Inkjet Mfg facility, and met the Engineers and Techs from Puerto Rico who came over and spent a year learning how to tear down the lines and rebuild the lines at new facilities elsewhere....

Later on, just a few years back, one of my son-in-laws Father, who worked as a direct HP employee, lost his job to a Corp BU spinoff and shifted to the new company Polycom.

When he was an HP employee, he spent a year in Aguadilla, Puerto Rico, although my son-in-law has somewhat hazy memories of that time....

When HP spun off Polycom, he was sent down to Puerto Rico to train his replacements, and then he was laid off about a year ago.

The same big Tech and Pharma firms that invested heavily in Puerto Rico, are not shifting on, shirking all responsibilities and treating the Island like a two dollar Hoe, to move on to the next most profitable locations to maximize their dollars upon the altars of Wall Street and NASDAQ....

I have lost virtually all trust in these companies, that move around from state to state, region to region, country to country, looking for where ever they can find the biggest Corporate Welfare payoffs of all.

Meanwhile, according to some of the Neo-Liberal schills on the Forum, it is somehow all Puerto Rico's fault.....

Disgraceful.

Indeed. These companies reaped the fruits, and now they're leaving just as fast as they arrived when they had those tax incentives. Puerto Rico lost a lot just granting all these tax reliefs for such a long time, and now the companies are packing up and leaving a mutilated economy for which they're significantly at fault.

Your story is commonplace there, unfortunately. The American citizens of Puerto Rico have been cuffed, beaten with a stick, and shot in both knees by the restrictions of the political status and the mega corporations, yet they still want to join this country as a formal state.

I would ask of everyone to just stop and think about that for a moment.